I wrote a long post and deleted it because it felt like I was ranging too far afield and I don't want to derail this very informative and interesting thread. I will just say this:
I more or less share your dim view of humanity F7. I, too, come from the George Carlin "circling the drain" view of humanity's future. I do agree with Seth on this one though. I am going to assume you grew up in a culturally diverse area just as I did. It is easier for us to inherently know that racial stereotypes are bogus because ever since a young age we've been exposed to the culture of other races. This informs us as children and forms the basis of our adult opinions.
Now what if a person has never physically been within 100 yards of anyone not white? They have no experience to draw upon other than the vicarious experience related to them by their friends and family.
Human's are creatures of experience. Our mind and body quickly adapt to our environment and if the only stimulous we have is "hate gay people" then we'll probably hate gay people. Sometimes that feeling of hate is so strong that we will then go out of our way to insure that we don't have experiences with gay people, thus depriving us of the information needed to open our eyes to our misconceptions.
I'd venture to say that every single one of us has prejudices and misconceptions about others.
As liberal as I am I have to admit that I personally do have prejudices that I have to be aware of and work against. These prejudices stem from ignorance because they are about cultures that I have no personal experience with. Even though I know the stereotypes that come to my head are not representative I can't help but think them because my brain, without any personal experience to draw upon, instead fills in the blanks with the american pop-cultural viewpoint.
WAIT! I just deleted an onerous and too wordy post only to make a slightly different yet equally long and tengential one. I think I made my point. Sorry.
I also see what you're saying, F, though I wouldn't be so...strident about it? We have a tendency to just accept that some absolution has happened, and all has been made clean, when in reality absolution shouldn't be easy, if it's even possible.
We should accept these changes of heart, but we shouldn't forget the actions that came before. I think the best response is to say "Nice that you've had the change of heart, but what're you going to do about it?" As always D'Angelo Barksdale expresses this more succinctly and more NSFW than I.
Even though I know the stereotypes that come to my head are not representative I can't help but think them because my brain, without any personal experience to draw upon, instead fills in the blanks with the american pop-cultural viewpoint.
Realising they are stereotypes, refusing to act upon them and trying to overcome them is what makes the difference. Humans have flaws, but most people just roll with them out of convenience. I have the deepest respect for those who try to overcome them.
Even though I know the stereotypes that come to my head are not representative I can't help but think them because my brain, without any personal experience to draw upon, instead fills in the blanks with the american pop-cultural viewpoint.Realising they are stereotypes, refusing to act upon them and trying to overcome them is what makes the difference. Humans have flaws, but most people just roll with them out of convenience. I have the deepest respect for those who try to overcome them.
But for every stereotype I am aware of there are probably two more that are just ingrained in me and I never realized it.
He says his parents started putting notes in his lunchbox saying that gays were evil and he was a bad person and emotionally abused him in other ways. He says his mother was particularly abusive. She told him he was “disgusting” and said she would rather have had an abortion than have a gay son and also said that she would have preferred a Down Syndrome child or a {ableist slur} child rather than a gay child.
I used to think that the best thing for the rabid anti-gay-anything people would be to have a gay child. But after reading that, I think I'll change my position. Those people shouldn't have children at all.
dejanzie wrote:Even though I know the stereotypes that come to my head are not representative I can't help but think them because my brain, without any personal experience to draw upon, instead fills in the blanks with the american pop-cultural viewpoint.Realising they are stereotypes, refusing to act upon them and trying to overcome them is what makes the difference. Humans have flaws, but most people just roll with them out of convenience. I have the deepest respect for those who try to overcome them.
But for every stereotype I am aware of there are probably two more that are just ingrained in me and I never realized it.
So which group of people do you advocate legislating rights away from?
I am being a little snarky maybe but I think you get my point. I also see yours though, prejudice can be difficult to spot in one self, even when one is looking.
The difference I think is when you start campaigning to legislate rights away from people. I am not sure what makes the difference exactly but I think there is a difference.
Great posts guys. You've given me a lot to think about. I'll tell you this, despite the little faith I have in humanity, you guys and gals remain the big bright f*cking shining beacon in this ocean of refuse and if anyone can coax a glimmer of hope out of me for the rest of humanity, it's all of you under the premise that there HAS to be more GWJ-type people out there.
Sorry for nurturing the derail Rev. I look forward to the next update.
Cmon, Kier. Every single person alive harbors stereotypes. Given a day researching old posts on these forums I could give you a list of stereotypes people on this forum take for granted, individually, in list form.
Like I've said a dozen times, stereotyping is just a politically unpopular word for generalizing, a human survival behavior that everyone has and no one can escape.
[edit] Not that that should be anyone's excuse for not fighting against stereotypes. I just find myself better equipped when I understand that I'm fighting against my own evolution, not my own evil.
B: Do you believe that homosexuals are more likely to molest children?T: Yes, I do.
B: Based on what?
T: From academic papers.
B: Which academic papers?
T: Some could be news and some could be journalists.
B: I’m not asking you what it could be. Was it a book? An article? Who wrote it?
T: I don’t remember. I don’t know.
B: Does Collins believe that sexual orientation can be changed?T: I saw it on the NARTH site [that’s where Ryan from yesterday went to have conversion therapy)]
B: You think NARTH is an objective website?
T: Yes. It’s reliable.
B: What does American Psychological Association say about this?
T: I don’t know.
B: You never tried to find out?
T: No.
B: You believe that NARTH is a good source?
T: Yes. I rely on the NARTH.
*head asplode*
I'm so glad this guy is getting his right now.
This stuff is really skirting the line between tragic and comic (i.e. it'd be hilarious except that it's being taken seriously and being used to discriminate against people)
B: You told people that next will be legalizing sex with children. That’s the homosexual agenda. Do you believe this?T: Yes.
Gay people want to marry another adult so that they can have sex with kids? Buh?
B: You said that if Prop. 8 passes, California will fall into Satan’s hands.T: Yes, I said that.
Over here, that'd get the guy immediately chucked into the "nutjob" camp (if his previous statements had left any doubt). I suppose things are a bit different in the US.
T: I saw it on the NARTH site [that’s where Ryan from yesterday went to have conversion therapy)]B: You think NARTH is an objective website?
T: Yes. It’s reliable.
B: What does American Psychological Association say about this?
T: I don’t know.
B: You never tried to find out?
T: No.
B: You believe that NARTH is a good source?
T: Yes. I rely on the NARTH.
T: Homosexuals are not minority.
B: How many are there?
T: I am a minority. Minority is based on skin color.
B: How many are there?
T: 2-4% of population.
B: So they are a minority?
T: yes.
B: Do you believe that homosexuals should be discriminated against?
T: No.
That attorney is doing an excellent job of demolishing Tam.
I don't mean to belittle you here, because people tend to react differently to something so completely absurd and offensive ... but I am laughing my backside off. This man has done horrible things, helped lead a campaign based on ignorance, fear, and outright hatred, and without the comfortable equivocations or "nudge/wink" inferences... what he has to say is just so ridiculous.
T: Homosexuals are not minority.
B: How many are there?
T: I am a minority. Minority is based on skin color.
B: How many are there?
T: 2-4% of population.
B: So they are a minority?
T: yes.
B: Do you believe that homosexuals should be discriminated against?
T: No.
Pretty sure the text mentioned Tam's side trying to stop him from testifying. Bit obvious why. He's an attorney's worst nightmare.
B: Your paper says that after Netherlands legalized SS marriage, NEtheralands legalized incest and polygamy. Do you believe that?
T: SS marriage may not have led to legalization of incest and polygamy, but it happened.
B: Who told you that?
T: I found it on the Internet.
I don't do this very often but... LOL!
Incidentally, the anti-Prop8 forces seem to have picked up some really unlikely buddies.
Incidentally, the anti-Prop8 forces seem to have picked up some really unlikely buddies.
Gotta rebel against daddy somehow.
I don't mean to belittle you here, because people tend to react differently to something so completely absurd and offensive ... but I am laughing my backside off. This man has done horrible things, helped lead a campaign based on ignorance, fear, and outright hatred, and without the comfortable equivocations or "nudge/wink" inferences... what he has to say is just so ridiculous.
Not taking it as belittling, Bloo. I think I'd be laughing too, if it wasn't for the fact that I'm part of the group that this idiot's targeting. I'm livid because it's this sort of crap that I read about over and over in my local newspaper from "concerned citizens". It's this sort of thing that gets GLBT folks killed, because people believe we're truly going to recruit or rape their kids, or that we're going to somehow be the gateway for Satan to come to the earth, or whatever.
It's also sad, because there are so many young lives that are damaged by this sort of thinking, and it's not limited to this guy. Gay kids being thrown out, beaten, killed, committing suicide... adults entering loveless marriages so they can "prove" they're not gay... just... gah.
Bloo Driver wrote:I don't mean to belittle you here, because people tend to react differently to something so completely absurd and offensive ... but I am laughing my backside off. This man has done horrible things, helped lead a campaign based on ignorance, fear, and outright hatred, and without the comfortable equivocations or "nudge/wink" inferences... what he has to say is just so ridiculous.
Not taking it as belittling, Bloo. I think I'd be laughing too, if it wasn't for the fact that I'm part of the group that this idiot's targeting. I'm livid because it's this sort of crap that I read about over and over in my local newspaper from "concerned citizens". It's this sort of thing that gets GLBT folks killed, because people believe we're truly going to recruit or rape their kids, or that we're going to somehow be the gateway for Satan to come to the earth, or whatever.
It's also sad, because there are so many young lives that are damaged by this sort of thinking, and it's not limited to this guy. Gay kids being thrown out, beaten, killed, committing suicide... adults entering loveless marriages so they can "prove" they're not gay... just... gah.
I think laughing is a pretty sane reaction. If you don't experience it up close in every day life, it is all a little bit ridiculous.
Unfortunately, as Rubb Ed said, people act upon their ridiculousness. That's the point where it becomes serious.
Not taking it as belittling, Bloo. I think I'd be laughing too, if it wasn't for the fact that I'm part of the group that this idiot's targeting. I'm livid because it's this sort of crap that I read about over and over in my local newspaper from "concerned citizens". It's this sort of thing that gets GLBT folks killed, because people believe we're truly going to recruit or rape their kids, or that we're going to somehow be the gateway for Satan to come to the earth, or whatever.
It's also sad, because there are so many young lives that are damaged by this sort of thinking, and it's not limited to this guy. Gay kids being thrown out, beaten, killed, committing suicide... adults entering loveless marriages so they can "prove" they're not gay... just... gah.
Or growing up in 400 person towns in the middle of Missouri and wondering every time you go home from school alone if you're going to be safe? I'm fully aware of how damaging this thinking is. Just in the context of the courtroom after all the dancing, sidestepping, and "you knooow what I'm sayin" is peeled away, all I could really do was laugh.
Logic crits Tam for 9000
T: I believe if marriage is beyond a man and a woman that any person can come to ask for marriage for incest and polygamy. If this is a civil right what would stop anyone from using marriage.
B: Can two siblings become DPs? Can man and girl of young age become DP?
T: No.
B: DPs exclude people of certain age and relationship.
T: Right.
B: You know that?
T: Yes.
B: So you see that DP does not lead to incest.
T: Yes. Oh I see your logic.
B: Yeah, logic, logic?
Just in the context of the courtroom after all the dancing, sidestepping, and "you knooow what I'm sayin" is peeled away, all I could really do was laugh.
As far as I could tell, most of it boiled down to:
You've stated that gay marriage will lead to x.
- Yes.
Do you have any sources?
- Yes.
Reliable sources? Can you produce them?
- No.
T: Homosexuals are not minority.
B: How many are there?
T: I am a minority. Minority is based on skin color.
B: How many are there?
T: 2-4% of population.
B: So they are a minority?
T: yes.
B: Do you believe that homosexuals should be discriminated against?
T: No.Pretty sure the text mentioned Tam's side trying to stop him from testifying. Bit obvious why. He's an attorney's worst nightmare.
Well, he's his attorney's worst nightmare. I'm pretty sure the anti-Prop-8 attorney was trying to stifle a giggle at a few points. Logically, it was like Mike Tyson boxing a special ed kid.
Not taking it as belittling, Bloo. I think I'd be laughing too, if it wasn't for the fact that I'm part of the group that this idiot's targeting. I'm livid because it's this sort of crap that I read about over and over in my local newspaper from "concerned citizens". It's this sort of thing that gets GLBT folks killed, because people believe we're truly going to recruit or rape their kids, or that we're going to somehow be the gateway for Satan to come to the earth, or whatever.
It's also sad, because there are so many young lives that are damaged by this sort of thinking, and it's not limited to this guy. Gay kids being thrown out, beaten, killed, committing suicide... adults entering loveless marriages so they can "prove" they're not gay... just... gah.
You should see some of the stuff on Tam's site in the feedback section. Some of it's old, but there was one Christian woman wanting to know how to pray for her daughter, because it was obvious she was so unhappy being a lesbian. Uh, I'm pretty sure she's unhappy because she has a judgmental {sexist slur} for a mother.
This one is fantastic:
B: Did anyone from ProtectMarriage.com contact you ask you take off of 1man1woman.com the statements that homosexuals are 12 times more likely to molest children?
T: No because it was in 2007.
B: Correct that this website was in operation during the campaign?
T: Yes. This website does not belong to TFC. Only TFC signed pledge. 1man1woman never signed the pledge.
B: I’m focusing in on a different question. This website was up during the campaign?
T: This page was not up during the campaign?
B: If I represented to you that a prior witness saw this page before the election, would that reflect your recollection?
T: Maybe it is, but then, uh, well I cannot remember correctly when, but that’s what I thought. That’s what I thought.
B: PM.com was well aware of 1woman1man website, right?
T: I am not aware.
B: (Back to press invitation). See what the website is? (For rally that Ron Prentice attended)
T: 1man1woman.net.
B: Flyer refers to 1man1woman.net
T: Yes.
B: Flyer for open-air rally to protect children? Right at the top is 1woman1man.net? Does that refresh memory that ProtectMarriage.com knew?
T: I’m not ProtectMarriage.com, so you can infer that they know.
B: Well, let’s see if we can do more than infer. (Points to document that went out on August 28, 2008, sent from Mr. Shubert’s firm). What was Mr. Shubert’s responsibility?
T: To run the campaign.
B: This was sent from Mr. Shubert to a number of people, many of which have been redacted. Reads off orgs that have not been redacted. Attached are the project marriage weekly grassroots minutes from yesterday.
T: Yes.
B: Did you attend those meetings?
T: Yes.
B: Who else attended those meetings?
T: Leaders of grassroots teams.
B: What team were you the leader of?
T: Asian American.
B: Read minutes sent by the man who ran the campaign. What does that third bullet point say?
T: A website is up, 1man1woman.com.
B: Pauses. Your honor, I have no further questions.
Seriously, this is likely listening to Fred Phelps lecture people.
This one is fantastic:
B: Who else attended those meetings?
T: Leaders of grassroots teams.
B: What team were you the leader of?
T: Asian American.
B: Read minutes sent by the man who ran the campaign. What does that third bullet point say?
T: A website is up, 1man1woman.com.
B: Pauses. Your honor, I have no further questions.
That's amazing. I think what makes it even more depressing is that guys like him "won". They won. Some of them possess the intellect of lobotomized turtles and they won. Incredible.
Bloo Driver wrote:Incidentally, the anti-Prop8 forces seem to have picked up some really unlikely buddies.
Gotta rebel against daddy somehow.
Actually that's John McCain's wife who is now supporting anti-Prop8 messages. That's a pretty huge deal -- his daughter Meghan has been against prop8 for a long time.
Also I am not sure if I should be filled with revulsion, horror, pity, or what for Mr. Tam.
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