IL Sturmovik and Heroes over Europe

IL Sturmovik: Birds of Prey Website

Played it last night. Once you turn the controller sensitivity to about halfway, you can turn your plane without spinning out of control. Graphically it is an amazing looking game. The demo seems pretty polished too. Maybe if this one sells well we might get some decent flight sims for the 360 instead of "HAWX" type crap.

On the less realistic but fun side, Heroes over Europe Looks like it has possibilities. I played Heroes over the Pacific on Ye Olde ExBoxe and it was a very fun albiet not to realistic game that got very little publicity.

The IL2 game surprised me when I saw it on the demo list on my 360. I actually just finished talking to rabbit about why the controls bother him so much, it was pretty eye opening since as a regular joe kind of flight simmer, it never occurred to me. I'll see if I can get him to post in this thread about it, I'd be interested to see what you guys think.

It's really tough trying to make a sim-level game using a 360 controller I'd imagine. The biggest issue is the range of the analogue stick. With a joystick it's much easier to fine tune your banks and turns, making for a smoother ride than the 360 controller is capable of. I really had difficulty lining up targets playing on the 360, but that's not the biggest problem.

The biggest problem is that I feel absolutely no situational awareness without being able to look around the cockpit. The TrackIR has ruined me for console flight games

Here's the critical problem.

Most "arcadey" flight sims ignore the rudder, and put throttle somewhere out of the way (like on the d-pad or the bumpers).

Il2, to it's credit, said "screw that" and put all four vectors on sticks where they belong (thrust, pitch, yaw, roll).

The problem is that while they did that, the stuck those vectors on exactly the wrong places. Yes yes, I get that for legions of halo players left stick is move, and right stick is look, but there's already a PROVEN model of how to deal with short control throws on two sticks for airplanes: Remote Control.

RC controls put aileron and THROTTLE on the left stick, and elevator and rudder on the right. This decouples the most sensitive controls. Having a nudge to rudder while using elevator, or a nudge to throttle while rolling, simply isn't a big deal. It's a HUGE deal to have the two primare flight control surfaces constantly accidentally interacting, which is what happens on a small stick.

This, incidentally, is also why most non-combat, non-acro airplanes use yokes. Yokes allow for very precise small control off the two big surfaces with almost zero chance for accidental interaction. The reason for sticks is to make rapid, high deflection maneuvers with one hand, something completely irrelevant to creading a sim for a 360 controller.

This is coupling issue is very much a real workd problem too, incidentally. I spent a LOT of my time in aero training working on mentally decoupling the movements of the stick, especially while inverted, where stick pressures get really high.

Im not suggesting they should have made the game defailt that way. But I find it REALLY inconceivable that there aren't enough aviation buffs working on the project that nobody realized the issue. I simply can't fly it, because I'm CONSTANTLY trying things with the wrong thumbs. Just give me a toggle please!!!

Did you check the options? I saw some for inverting the controls, and that is where I turned the sensitivity WAY down, which made turning easier for me. I am surprised they won't allow remapping to whatever works for the player.

There it is. Delicious.

I agree, more control options should always be the way rather than less.

Rabbit - I totally agree. I was trying to figure out what was throwing me off on the IL-2 demo, and that's it. The rudder and aileron are reversed. The planes in Battlefield use the elevator/rudder on the left and just aileron (I think?) on the right - although the throttle (and related goofy physics) are on the shoulder.

On a related note, while the tutorial missions were nice, did anyone actually make it through the second demo campaign mission (strafing the artillery line with the P-51)? I couldn't figure out how to utilize the rockets that appeared to be on my wings, so I plinked away at the ten (TEN) artillery stations with my guns, eventually resorted to kamikazeing into one, and then ragequit.

Beautiful game, though. I want it to be the best game ever.

(First post on GWJ - a friend of mine turned me onto the podcast, and now it has replaced 1Up Yours as my partner to Giant Bombcast. Guy's gotta listen to something while he washes the dishes.)

sivartTheGreat wrote:

Rabbit - I totally agree. I was trying to figure out what was throwing me off on the IL-2 demo, and that's it. The rudder and aileron are reversed. The planes in Battlefield use the elevator/rudder on the left and just aileron (I think?) on the right - although the throttle (and related goofy physics) are on the shoulder.

Oh my god that would be even WORSE!!!

Aileron and throttle, left, Elevator and rudder, right!

sivartTheGreat wrote:

Rabbit - I totally agree. I was trying to figure out what was throwing me off on the IL-2 demo, and that's it. The rudder and aileron are reversed. The planes in Battlefield use the elevator/rudder on the left and just aileron (I think?) on the right - although the throttle (and related goofy physics) are on the shoulder.

On a related note, while the tutorial missions were nice, did anyone actually make it through the second demo campaign mission (strafing the artillery line with the P-51)? I couldn't figure out how to utilize the rockets that appeared to be on my wings, so I plinked away at the ten (TEN) artillery stations with my guns, eventually resorted to kamikazeing into one, and then ragequit.

Beautiful game, though. I want it to be the best game ever.

(First post on GWJ - a friend of mine turned me onto the podcast, and now it has replaced 1Up Yours as my partner to Giant Bombcast. Guy's gotta listen to something while he washes the dishes.)

Isn't left shoulder rockets?

I'm an idiot. I had to go actually pull up my RC simulator -- the problem is that right stick is where left should be... Throttle and Rudder are indeed together! I'm so used to coordinated turns and helicopters (which use the left thumb for steering a LOT) that I'm a mess.

It's okay, I'm also an idiot if SwampYankee is right and left shoulder is rockets. I'll have to check when I get a chance. Probably is. Sigh.

There is another IL2 Sturmovik: BoP thread where the primary discussion also revolves around the controls.

rabbit wrote:

I'm an idiot. I had to go actually pull up my RC simulator -- the problem is that right stick is where left should be... Throttle and Rudder are indeed together! I'm so used to coordinated turns and helicopters (which use the left thumb for steering a LOT) that I'm a mess.

I'm surprised there isn't an option to switch sticks.

Correctiontown USA:

BF1943 controls are (Rudder) on left and (Aileron/Elevator) on right. I had it backwards and also wrong.

I think this primarily boils down to what Rabbit was saying about coupling the throttle with sensitive controls, although I like the extra step 1943 took by removing throttle from the equation entirely. Analog sticks provide no tactile feedback for controlling two very separate axes at once.

Here's to hoping there are more configuration options in the retail copy.

In other news: I enjoyed the tutorials of the demo, and I am hoping to get enough time this evening to play the scenario a few times. Normally these aren't my type of games, but I enjoyed this one.

If the main steering was on the right stick it would kill the ability to use the face buttons for anything. It has to be the left stick so you can steer and use the other functions of the controller at the same time.

I still have IL on pre-order. I'll be playing in Arcade, I think. Realistic is doable for me but on the ground attack missions, I'm in the ballpark but just can't hit my targets. I've tried climbing and then cutting throttle and going into a dive to hit the target, but as I get closer, I just barely seem to miss the targets and don't take them out. If I don't cut throttle, I tend to auger in, following my rockets or machine gun rounds into the target. Arcade is still a challenge but I crash less and hit my targets more often. It does not give you unlimited ammunition, which is one of the things that ruined HAWX for me.

Gorgeous game, I'd like to spend some time in free-flight just checking out the landscape.

rabbit wrote:
sivartTheGreat wrote:

Rabbit - I totally agree. I was trying to figure out what was throwing me off on the IL-2 demo, and that's it. The rudder and aileron are reversed. The planes in Battlefield use the elevator/rudder on the left and just aileron (I think?) on the right - although the throttle (and related goofy physics) are on the shoulder.

Oh my god that would be even WORSE!!!

Aileron and throttle, left, Elevator and rudder, right!

The planes in BF1943 have the throttle on the left trigger, and it is sensitive to the amount that the trigger is depressed, so if you want to slowly go to fifty percent throttle, you just slowly pull the trigger until it feels right. I find it very intuitive.

That said, BF1943 is NOT a flight sim by any stretch of the imagination - the flying is extremely arcade-y (and fun). It probably isn't a fair comparison with IL2.

Heroes Over Europe should be a nice in between 1943 and IL2...

I hadn't heard about that one, but the bullshots on the Heroes Over Europe site look great. I'll have to keep an eye on it.

I'll be amazed if this gamer sells well if the local marketing is much to go on.

My friend's shops were offered promotional merchandise for the game. He said yes. He received a video loop DVD for his store TVs, some cardboard promo stands, all well and good so far, but then came the T-shirts.

I'll edit a pic on at some point, but it is a an olive-drab colour with a red star on the front. The name of the game is on the shirt, but it's actually inside the neck!

He had to show me the star on a promo box; even though I am interested in the game, I had no idea that the star was the logo.

On the plus side, he gave me a surprisingly decent quality T-shirt that isn't a blatant ad!

Ooh, I'm an executive. It's only taken 3 and a half years!