[Discussion] Blue no matter who?

This post is discussing the efficacy of voting "Blue no matter who" as it relates to the working class and working poor.

Joe Biden depends on the working class and working poor to get him razor thin margins. Unfortunately most of his major landmark bills have had little to no effect on the cost of living, creating good jobs or improving the lot of the very same people who got him elected. IE: His base.

For his base, the cost of living has risen astronomically. Since the end of covid, Rents up 50-60% food up 50 %, abortion rights, dead. Homelessness and fentanyl is a major crisis. Deaths of despair. Borders in crisis

Our president has done NOTHING to address any of these issues. At least nothing of note. IMO nothing that matters. Even when the democrats have a chance to do something, they do nothing. See voting rights bill, covid stimulus, abortion, etc. They always have a ready excuse for breaking their campaign promises, till the next election, then its energize the base (or try to) with more bullsh*t promises.

The democrats and the republicans all work for the same people. It's all a kabuki shell game. My reasoning at this point is that the democrats will f-ck the working poor and working class. The republicans have a good chance of destroying EVERYTHING. I believe this is the reasoning that got TFG elected in the first place.

No sitting president has been re elected with as low approval rating as Biden. I don't believe he will be able to pull together a coalition to eke out a victory. Biden is tone deaf enough to support Israel when one of the biggest battleground states is MI for example.

You don't have to convince me btw. I'm in Portland OR. My vote doesn't matter. Also even when the Democrats have had majorities, they have bent over backwards to "observe process" and "reach across the aisle" They have no reason to fight for the American people.. Their paymasters are the same. When Republicans want something done they just do it. Eff the rules, because that's what their contributors want.

Feel free to delete this if it goes beyond the scope of what this board is willing to tolerate. It is, unfortunately very inflammatory and contains the opinions and observations of one person.

I'm sorry you are in pain, Drazzil.

SallyNasty wrote:

I'm sorry you are in pain, Drazzil.

Please don't make this about me. I appreciate your willingness to empathize with me personally but this goes beyond me. It'd be easy to make this about me, but then you'd be missing the forest for the trees.

"Blue no matter who" is a lot like "A rising tide lifts all boats"

The electoral version of trickle down economics.

You are all wonderful very well meaning people and I thank you all from the bottom of my heart for allowing me to spitball this. My intent is not to step on toes, nor is it, really even to change minds or votes. If however TFG does get elected in November, this is absolutely a factor.

SallyNasty wrote:

I'm sorry you are in pain, Drazzil.

Me too buddy. Me too. Perhaps that colors this. Most of my co workers cant afford rent and to eat. Count me among that. I'm almost two months behind on rent, not of my fault, I had a tooth fall apart on me, I cant afford to get it fixed. I don't qualify for aid because I work 40+ hours a week. I cant afford my pills, I cant afford anything.

I'm not alone. I have co workers living out of their cars, cheating and not reporting income to get aid, co workers who have been caught and are under garnishments. My next door neighbor is losing his apartment too and I hear him cry himself to sleep every night. I step outside my apartment to watch people live in tents and die on the street.

I often wonder what the point of it all is. If TFG runs it all into the ground, how much worse will things be for my cohort?

Drazzil wrote:

I often wonder what the point of it all is. If TFG runs it all into the ground, how much worse will things be for my cohort?

There is a saying to describe life in Russia, "and then it got worse."
So the answer is worse, much much worse.

The biggest progressive promise I can think of that he hasn't kept was to expand access to childcare... I think your point of view is totally valid and you're following the rules of this site, so I hope you'll share more. What specific promises did he fail to keep?

Chairman_Mao wrote:

The biggest progressive promise I can think of that he hasn't kept was to expand access to childcare... I think your point of view is totally valid and you're following the rules of this site, so I hope you'll share more. What specific promises did he fail to keep?

The two I can immediately think of was the promise of 2k checks and instead sending out 1100. The next may not have been a promise but his telling the civil rights leaders who got him elected in Georgia to "sit down and shut up and your time will come"

Yes that was an actual quote, fresh air of NPR did a whole discussion on how one of the people he had a virtual town hall on passing a voting rights bill the day after he was elected. Then Biden and the Democratic MAJORITY they had for a slim month long period refused to set aside the parliamentarian who said that they didn't have the votes to pass the bill. Like they couldn't even fire him and go ahead, or pass it in reconciliation... Then I sort of tuned out honestly. For a while.

Mostly what sticks out to me is his utter disregard of the working class. His handling of the economy, his failure to use the power of his office to codify roe.

*shrug*

I think it was 1400 not 1100, but yes I can see how the message got twisted over time.

I can't find anything about the comment toward civil rights leaders though, and as far as I understand Joe Manchin basically controlled the vote on the parliamentarian thing.

Not being a member of the working class I unfortunately haven't been in a position to directly understand how he's disregarded them, but I'm totally open to reading/watching more about it.

I absolutely wish Democrats could have codified Roe.

I absolutely wish Democrats wouldn't have sung god bless America after Roe was struck down.

If I were Biden. I would have governed exclusively through executive order. Make the SC strike down one after another, then go to the American people and argue that a good way to stop this would be to reform the supreme court. Make the SC out to be the bunch of lying political snakes that they are.

I'd argue the legality of Madison v Marbury as legal grounds that the Supreme Court doesn't have nor should it have the power to affect the governing of the United States. The SC has been gathering to itself power that it should not have since this nations founding. Then I would, by executive order start to actually lead.

And yes, terrible precedent to set the SC aside. Lets be honest though... They will ABSOLUTELY be the destruction of the United States if we let them. They are an illegitimate institution and have been for decades now.

I suspect that Biden would sail to election in a landslide, as he could then point to what he has done and say "If the Republicans get in you will lose ALL this"

That and I would absolutely look into the GOP with my AG and unravel them like RICO. They're criming out in the open and the argument that prosecuting the GOP members for a whole host of bullsh*t would be "Using the power of office to persecute political enemies" only works if the other side is blameless. FDR did it, we should too. The only thing he would need is to keep from getting removed from office. A few senators and house members would do. This would herald a return to the era of Johnson level politics. Dirty, yes but no one batted an eye because the ends justified the means. Johnson isin't remembered for intimidating, blackmailing, breaking the law, waving his penis around. He's remembered for the ERA and a bunch of other stuff that measurably improved the lives of many. Johnson had that supermajority because he got stuff done. Not the other way around.

This sounds insane, yeah. I know. I'm glad I'm not president.

I'll share a secret though. The Democrats would never do this, they wont even use the LEGAL powers they *do* have. Not because they respect the rule of law or social norms, but because they all want the same thing, go to the same socials, and take the same paycheck from their donors. Social norms and rule of law is just the excuse they use to make the plebs vote blue no matter who.

This desperately treading water and slowly drowning stuff we are currently going through absolutely sucks, but it's still far preferable to the alternative.

I don't disagree with almost any of the things you've posted, except the part that wonders if it couldn't get that much worse if Trump got control again.

The idea of rebuilding after things finally collapse sounds appealing, but only when you start at the point of the rebuilding and don't think about how painful the years-long collapse and civil war that would come after will be for millions and millions of people. If you thought the poor and working classes were getting f*cked over now, imagine it without even the figleaves of protections we have now. And then imagine what it will be like for every group of people that aren't straight white males. You don't even have to imagine that hard, just listen to what the right wing politicians say they want to do to them. Rebuilding also requires that the people who caused the collapse to no longer be in power, which absolutely will not be happening anytime soon. If it's difficult to get politicians who actually care about people like you into any position of relative power now, it's certainly not going to get any easier if Trump regains control. Rebuilding would probably be decades away, and most of us struggling now would probably not live long enough to see it.

In the end, though, I "vote blue, no matter who" not because I think it'll actually help me or my situation, but because the alternatives are either saying "I don't care what happens to anyone else" by not voting, or "I actively want eveyone else to go through what I'm going through" by voting Republican. Regardless of what I think of most Democrats, they're still the least bad option available. And so I vote Blue not because of what I think it'll actually accomplish, but because it's the message I want to send.

Drazzil wrote:

My reasoning at this point is that the democrats will f-ck the working poor and working class. The republicans have a good chance of destroying EVERYTHING.

...

If TFG runs it all into the ground, how much worse will things be for my cohort?

You answer your own question, right there. Which is worse, the government not picking up all the people who fall down, or the government kicking as many people over as possible?

Jonman wrote:

You answer your own question, right there. Which is worse, the government not picking up all the people who fall down, or the government kicking as many people over as possible?

The 2nd. The 2nd is far worse. It is the active one.

Look, I get that you aren't excited about Joe Biden vs. Donald Trump. And I understand that the choice is largely between the guy who will watch everything burn and maybe throw some water here or there vs. the guy who wants to throw gasoline on the fire.

1) I feel that way too. I felt that way in 2020, 2016, 2012, and really every presidential election of my lifetime.

2) One of those two men will be the President of the United States.

I am a straight, cis-het, white middle-aged man. My life will not get appreciably better or worse no matter who wins the election. But my trans friends, my Muslim friends, and my black son, their lives will get worse if Trump wins and implements his policies. And that doesn't count all the Hispanic people, Asian people, Arab people. Muslims, women, and whomever else the right will vilify to try to hide their kleptocracy.

Biden isn't my choice to be president. When I was active in the Democratic Primary in 2020, I could name at any point a half-dozen people who wanted to be president who I think would do a better job than Biden is. But they aren't the choice.

There are things you can do to make things better. Get involved in local races, they matter more than you think. Run or actively campaign for school board or city council, where one person of integrity can really make a difference. I know that feels defeatist, but it isn't.

The truth is Biden (or Bernie Sanders, or Elizabeth Warren, or any other one person), can't fix everything wrong with the country. It has been made of a great deal of rot for long before there was even a United States. And maybe we should burn it down and start over. But Trump is not the person who will build something better back over top of the ashes. Trump is the person who will burn it down, steal everything still valuable, and make a naked power grab. And a lot of good people will be hurt--both in the destruction and the vacuum left.

People are hurting now. Democrats share in a great deal of the blame. But so do Republicans. At the end of the day, we will either have four more years of what the world looks like now, or four more years of what the world looked like in 2017. I wish I could tell you Biden will make it better. I can't. But I know it can be worse, and I know Trump will make it worse.

Be careful what you wish for. If everything collapses, I think we’ll be lucky if the successor state we rebuild is merely as bad Putin’s Russia. I fear we’d be looking at more of a Handmaid’s Tale or Nazi Germany situation, depending on whether misogyny or racism prevails as the focus of society’s misdirected rage.

farley3k wrote:
Jonman wrote:

You answer your own question, right there. Which is worse, the government not picking up all the people who fall down, or the government kicking as many people over as possible?

The 2nd. The 2nd is far worse. It is the active one.

To be fair, if you're one of the people who has already fallen, at least in the second case you get some company instead of just being forgotten.

The thought process goes something like this - Maybe, just maybe, if enough people get knocked over, they can band together and do something, whereas in the first case, the people knocked over are just like the people standing on a street corner holding a cardboard sign that you try to ignore and forget that you ever saw.

Note that I don't agree with this line of thought - I also think the second is far worse. But I can also understand how, from a certain point of view, it might seem differently.

Keldar wrote:
farley3k wrote:
Jonman wrote:

You answer your own question, right there. Which is worse, the government not picking up all the people who fall down, or the government kicking as many people over as possible?

The 2nd. The 2nd is far worse. It is the active one.

To be fair, if you're one of the people who has already fallen, at least in the second case you get some company instead of just being forgotten.

The thought process goes something like this - Maybe, just maybe, if enough people get knocked over, they can band together and do something, whereas in the first case, the people knocked over are just like the people standing on a street corner holding a cardboard sign that you try to ignore and forget that you ever saw.

Note that I don't agree with this line of thought - I also think the second is far worse. But I can also understand how, from a certain point of view, it might seem differently.

Ding ding ding ding!!

The only time people like me matter is every four years in November. This will not change in my lifetime I think.

Granted my vote doesen't mean anything. I live in Portland. You don't have to worry about me. Worry about the millions of me in Georgia or Michigan.

According to CNN biden had a meltdown, couldn't grasp why Trump's ahead in those states.. Like

"How f*ckin dare we plebs not vote for him, don't they see how many jobs he created?!"

I don't remember where I saw this but minorities like TFG better the more he flubs, lies, screws things up.

That's his appeal!!

They kinda think if TFG gets in office again, the whole thing'll come down like a rotten house.

Biden keeps the plates spinning. TFG brings down the house.

As for me. I'll pull the lever for Biden. If only because when the election does go his way, on my way to whereever TFG sends people with arabic last names... My conscience will be clearer.

I'm going to hate myself regardless.

Worry about the millions of minorities and poisoned elite asperants not me, in swing states.

Would you consider voting for Kennedy? How does he stack up vs Biden, from your point of view?

From what I read? He sucks. Conspiracy theorist, total nutjob. As I said I'll vote for Biden, and at worst, I'll do what I did last time and write in Bernie Sanders.

As I said. I'm in Portland OR. My vote doesen't count. Like not even a little bit.

Drazzil wrote:

As I said. I'm in Portland OR. My vote doesen't count. Like not even a little bit.

Sure, in regards to the president (electoral college) choice. Same for me here in NJ. However, there are plenty of down-ballot choices that your and my votes can still be effective.

Chairman_Mao wrote:

Would you consider voting for Kennedy? How does he stack up vs Biden, from your point of view?

You know I'm starting to believe that either you guys don't believe me when I talk about most of Trump's gains coming from PoC in 2020. I mentioned the name of the guy above (I think)

Remember that a lot of Trump's voters came from disaffected Obama voters who felt stabbed in the back by the candiate who trotted out the hopey changey sh*t.. Only to effectively govern like the third and fourth terms of W. And then they REALLY felt screwed by 2008.

A lot of 2016 Trump people were disaffected Bernie voters who Hillary offered NOTHING, then called anyone considering voting for the other guy "basket of deplorable"

I honestly don't think her majesty H knew how badly she f-cked up till day of... haha.

Again. Don't. Worry. How. I. Vote.

I am. NOT. the. ISSUE.

The issue is the swing states. How Biden depends on the demographic he screws.

Maybe this is as hard for some people here to understand as it is for our commander in chief. This IMHO is why he will most likely lose.

Biden needs a larger turn out then ever. I don't see a lot of those voters taking off work, braving the jerrymandered districts, turning out in the elements and standing in a 12-14 hour line to vote fer the asshole who couldn't be arsed even to help them "tread water" as you say.

Maybe I'm wrong. I saw Biden convince jussssst enough of the underclass to make an effort to pull his decrepit ass across the finish line. Do I see it working again?

Nope.

Time will tell.

I’m not saying Biden is perfect by any means, but he’s passed some important legislation that may help save us from the worst of climate change. He’s also done a decent job of helping the American economy recover from COVID. People seem to want everything to go back to normal immediately not realizing the economic fallout from pandemics often last for a decade or more.

The biggest problems with Democrats that I’ve seen is they play by the rules while the other side doesn’t. There could be an argument to be made our system is hopelessly broken and needs a radical makeover. For example the Electoral College is total BS left over from slavery. However, will the new system be worth the destruction?

jdzappa wrote:

I’m not saying Biden is perfect by any means, but he’s passed some important legislation that may help save us from the worst of climate change. He’s also done a decent job of helping the American economy recover from COVID. People seem to want everything to go back to normal immediately not realizing the economic fallout from pandemics often last for a decade or more.

The biggest problems with Democrats that I’ve seen is they play by the rules while the other side doesn’t. There could be an argument to be made our system is hopelessly broken and needs a radical makeover. For example the Electoral College is total BS left over from slavery. However, will the new system be worth the destruction?

Done a decent job of helping the economy recover from COVID for who?

Breakdown of Biden voters by income levels

Sorry I suck snd cant directly link this as a page. Basically shows Biden's support skews working and "middle" class... Although it's arguable how middle class 100k or undrr is these days.

I'd like to see a breakdown of Biden supporters in swing states and what income they trend towards.

I believe you, I'm just trying to get a more detailed understanding of why. I'm still not clear on how exactly Biden has screwed over the working class. I don't expect you to do the research for me, but if you can at least point me toward sources that are talking about it, I really do want to read/watch/listen to them.

Drazzil wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

I’m not saying Biden is perfect by any means, but he’s passed some important legislation that may help save us from the worst of climate change. He’s also done a decent job of helping the American economy recover from COVID. People seem to want everything to go back to normal immediately not realizing the economic fallout from pandemics often last for a decade or more.

The biggest problems with Democrats that I’ve seen is they play by the rules while the other side doesn’t. There could be an argument to be made our system is hopelessly broken and needs a radical makeover. For example the Electoral College is total BS left over from slavery. However, will the new system be worth the destruction?

Done a decent job of helping the economy recover from COVID for who?

Things are relative. On a macro Economy level the United States is doing great comparatively to pretty much the rest of the world. (Rebounding from COVID + inflation)

That really doesn't mean sh*t on the micro level for your day to day situation.

It's also why Biden could still lose the election while the economy is actually doing pretty good. The overall sentiment is bad and reality for many is terrible. Caveat here is there's still time for the economy to go to sh*t or sentiment to rebound that it's actually not that bad.

I think the actual culprit of what's going on at the Micro level is how much Trump and the right have essentially won by anchoring Biden to the middle. Or even nudged them more to the right.

Drazzil wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

I’m not saying Biden is perfect by any means, but he’s passed some important legislation that may help save us from the worst of climate change. He’s also done a decent job of helping the American economy recover from COVID. People seem to want everything to go back to normal immediately not realizing the economic fallout from pandemics often last for a decade or more.

The biggest problems with Democrats that I’ve seen is they play by the rules while the other side doesn’t. There could be an argument to be made our system is hopelessly broken and needs a radical makeover. For example the Electoral College is total BS left over from slavery. However, will the new system be worth the destruction?

Done a decent job of helping the economy recover from COVID for who?

I would say everyone. According to Pew Research, we are right in the middle when it comes to inflation. We could do better of course, but Biden didn’t completely drop the ball.

And of course state and local laws have a much bigger impact on the average American and Biden has no control over that. I live in one of the bluest states in the nation and yet we still have regressive sales taxes that hit the poor the hardest.

The biggest problem with Democrats is they claim to be a left-wing party when really they 1) are a center-right party that 2) runs away from popular left-wing ideas.

The problem with the Rupublican party is that they claim to be a right-wing party that are really a fascist, white supremist party.

I don't think the Democratic party deserves to win sh*t on their merits. But I know Republicans as currently constituted are fascists (or at best empowering fascists) and need to be defeated.

Drazzil wrote:

Remember that a lot of Trump's voters came from disaffected Obama voters who felt stabbed in the back by the candiate who trotted out the hopey changey sh*t.. Only to effectively govern like the third and fourth terms of W. And then they REALLY felt screwed by 2008.

A lot of 2016 Trump people were disaffected Bernie voters who Hillary offered NOTHING, then called anyone considering voting for the other guy "basket of deplorable"

A lot Trump voters weren't Obama supporters, or Bernie supporters. Some amount, sure, but not "a lot." People who voted for Bernie in the primary actually voted for Clinton against Trump at a higher rate than people who voted for Clinton in the primary voted for Obama against McCain.

And Hillary was right, anyone who actually voted for Trump over her because they were mad about how Bernie was done wrong is a deplorable person. It's just cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Chairman_Mao wrote:

I believe you, I'm just trying to get a more detailed understanding of why. I'm still not clear on how exactly Biden has screwed over the working class. I don't expect you to do the research for me, but if you can at least point me toward sources that are talking about it, I really do want to read/watch/listen to them.

I'll look for em. If I cant find it again ill shut up.

Busting the rail workers strike and the dripping of student debt relief in weird random chunks instead of forgiving all of it are two that I can think of policy-wise. But the main thing is not making systemic changes that will meaningfully shore up the government from the next administration of society destroyers.