A place to post and discuss news related to the recent events in Israel, including the Hamas/Islamic Jihad incursion and repercussions.
I've been thinking more on the calculus of what is happening in Israel-Palestine right now.
It's no secret N has ties to Russia and N has struggled to topple any semblance of the rule of law in Israel or that the prognosis for Russia's mid term military prospects in UKR is intrinsically tied to ongoing Western support and focus.
Nor is it any surprise RUS and Iran and other strongmen led territories are backing Hamas. It drives oil prices up (helps RUS and any petrochemical state; PRC have a sweetheart deal on oil so they are indifferent), it diverts military attention and saps western support for the UKR war theatre. Oh, have we forgotten Putin's forces have been bombing hospitals, schools and apartments for over 12 months?
It was reported yesterday (?) France and others are calling for a coalition to join Israel's ground invasion of Palestine. It's almost as if people have forgotten what happened when the western world including Australia blithely followed Bush and Blaire into the middle east and piled war crimes on war crimes.
We also have Israel denying visas to UN personnel on grounds that they found a particular speech (which echoes the general sentiment of GWJ in this thread) condemning terrorism but acknowledging Palestinians have been oppressed for a long time and terrorism does not validate war crimes. Well, unfortunately there's a level of hypocrisy everywhere we turn. I mean the UN wasn't condemning the western coalition on what it did in the wake of 9/11 and until the withdrawal. Duality of humans indeed.
My sense is that the more fuel this conflict is fed the more it plays into the hands of the strongmen territories. This is not good. If the casualty rates are accurate for the RUS UKR war, I read somewhere RUS is reported to have approaching 300,000 casualties; I can't imagine UKR would have any less than 100,000 even if they suppress the true losses. That's at a 3:1 orthodox attacker to defender ratio so it probably isn't far off the truth. The death rates in Israel-Palestine are steeply climbing. Like with COVID, we won't know the true losses attributable to disruption of a functioning Gaza strip. People will die avoidable deaths from childbirth, lack of medicines, starvation, dehydration and bombing.
I can't see a clear pathway out of this quagmire for the world. It's quite depressing to see the world fall ever closer to the Great Depression cycle of bust into war economy.
We will never get past messes like this because ultimately, humanity is too tribalistic to behave otherwise.
It was reported yesterday (?) France and others are calling for a coalition to join Israel's ground invasion of Palestine.
I don't know the context of this, but it makes me wonder if these governments think ISR and USA don't have the special operations capacity needed to mount an effective rescue of the hostages.
I saw that more to give cover to, "Terror is wrong. Let's find a way to go after the political group that we don't like/want around, while defusing the, 'you just want Arabs to die' rhetoric that gets mixed up in this." Sort of Macron's way to stay good with "the Left" that wants to support Palestinians while also going hard on terrorism and the threat that poses to all legit governments (with special flair for FRA given their imperial past and current issues in Africa, and also being a friend to Israel, which is still a democracy in a region of monarchs and autocrats*.
*Netanyahu of course wanting to cozy up to that approach since, you know, democracy breeds weakness and what we really need is a strongman who is tight with the hard right religious fundamentalists who are super-ultra competent in complex arenas like statecraft and defense and government administration...wait..no?
I agree with Jeet Heer, Dark Brandon just ain't equipped for this.
I understand tieing it to Biden but it is important not to forget the other side "Trump Recognizes Jerusalem as Israel’s Capital and Orders U.S. Embassy to Move"
So this isn't a democratic policy or a republican one it is our policy and until we hold our elected officials responsible it will not change.
What Biden is outlining here, in idealized and euphemistic terms, is the shared foreign policy goal of the Trump and Biden administrations: an alliance system headed by the United States that would bring together Arab autocracies like Saudi Arabia with Israel. This pact would depend on pushing to the margin any promise of democracy or human rights for Arabs who live under dictatorships, as well as selling out the Palestinians in Israel.
And I don't know about y'all, but since I'm in the New Hampshire TV market, I am getting bombarded with ads from the former ambassador to the UN declaring that she will refuse to allow Gazan refugees to come to the US.
‘How can I vote for Biden?’ Arab Americans in Michigan ‘betrayed’ by Israel support
Leading up to the 2020 election, Arab American organizers in south-east Michigan like Terry Ahwal worked to convince their community to go to the polls for Joe Biden. The message was simple: Donald Trump’s Islamophobic rhetoric and policies such as the Middle East travel ban were a threat to Arab Americans. Voters mobilized to help push Biden over the top in this critical swing state.
Several years on, amid Biden’s full-throated support of Israel in the current war and an unfolding humanitarian crisis that has claimed thousand of lives in Gaza, Ahwal feels deep regret: “I have to say “I’m sorry’ to my friends.’”
Ahwal is among hundreds of thousands of Arab Americans in Michigan, many of whom are watching with horror as the US supports Israel as it carries out its bombing campaign. After the community backed Biden by a wide margin in November 2020, the feeling goes “beyond betrayal”, about a dozen Arab Americans in Michigan said.
“This is a complete loss of humanity, it is the active support of a genocide, and I don’t think it gets any worse than that,” said Huwaida Arraf, a Palestinian American activist and attorney. “I’ve gotten a few comments, ‘Well, the GOP is going to be worse,’ and my question is: ‘How can you get worse than active support of a genocide?’”
Polls show that Americans have generally been supportive of Israel and its response to the 7 October attack, though Morning Consult data released this week also shows the number of people who sympathize equally with Israelis and Palestinians is on the rise. That poll also showed support for Biden’s response is growing.
But Arab Americans who spoke with the Guardian said they did not know of anyone in their community who would vote for Biden in 2024. That could have profound consequences in a state in which Trump won by 10,000 votes in 2016, and a tight rematch is taking shape.
Still, the Biden administration has remained steadfastly supportive of Israel, proposing $14bn in aid; providing weapons such as missiles and armored personnel carriers; refusing calls for a ceasefire; and deploying US troops to the region. A Data for Progress poll released Thursday found 66% of Americans think the US should call for a ceasefire.
In Biden's very meager defense, this was a choose-your-shit-sandwich situation, as greater support for Palestine would've A.) pissed off every major Jewish lobby in the nation and B.) probably wouldn't have materialized into a meaningful number of votes to offset that loss.
“I’ve gotten a few comments, ‘Well, the GOP is going to be worse,’ and my question is: ‘How can you get worse than active support of a genocide?’”
Republicans: "Hold my can of Trump's Booty Sweat!"
LOL, I knew I was getting the "other side" from Al Jazeera, but they have an "Asking the Hard Questions" interview with a Hamas official on their YT that is just... *chef's kiss*
The questioning is about as hard as playdough. And that's being unfair to playdough, frankly.
Just gotta know your sources slants.
The UN general assembly has overwhelmingly called for an “immediate, durable and sustainable humanitarian truce” between Israel and Hamas and demanded unhindered aid access to the besieged Gaza Strip.
The motion drafted by Jordan is not binding, but carries political weight, reflecting the degree to which the US and Israel are isolated internationally as Israel steps up its ground operations.
The resolution does not name Hamas, which is holding around 220 civilian hostages who were seized during the devastating 7 October attacks. But it calls for the “immediate and unconditional release” of all civilians illegally held captive and demands their safety and humane treatment, and condemns attacks on both Palestinian and Israeli civilians.
It passed with 120 votes in favour, while 45 abstained, and 14, including Israel and the United States, voted against.
Following pressure from the US and Canada, an attempt to condemn Hamas by name, and demand an immediate release of hostages was passed by 88 to 55, but failed to win the required two-thirds majority.
Jordan had originally demanded an immediate ceasefire, but in a bid to maximise support, amended the draft by calling for an immediate durable and sustainable humanitarian truce leading to a cessation of hostilities.
It is the first time the UN has come to a collective view on the Middle East crisis, after four attempts to reach a common position on the smaller 15-strong UN Security Council failed due to vetoes being wielded either by Russia or the US.
I feel just as hopeless and despairing as I did when watching the US engage in its "shock and awe" campaign against Iraq in 2003.
I know I can't do anything, but that doesn't make me any less upset.
‘How can I vote for Biden?’ Arab Americans in Michigan ‘betrayed’ by Israel support
Leading up to the 2020 election, Arab American organizers in south-east Michigan like Terry Ahwal worked to convince their community to go to the polls for Joe Biden. The message was simple: Donald Trump’s Islamophobic rhetoric and policies such as the Middle East travel ban were a threat to Arab Americans. Voters mobilized to help push Biden over the top in this critical swing state.
Several years on, amid Biden’s full-throated support of Israel in the current war and an unfolding humanitarian crisis that has claimed thousand of lives in Gaza, Ahwal feels deep regret: “I have to say “I’m sorry’ to my friends.’”
Ahwal is among hundreds of thousands of Arab Americans in Michigan, many of whom are watching with horror as the US supports Israel as it carries out its bombing campaign. After the community backed Biden by a wide margin in November 2020, the feeling goes “beyond betrayal”, about a dozen Arab Americans in Michigan said.
“This is a complete loss of humanity, it is the active support of a genocide, and I don’t think it gets any worse than that,” said Huwaida Arraf, a Palestinian American activist and attorney. “I’ve gotten a few comments, ‘Well, the GOP is going to be worse,’ and my question is: ‘How can you get worse than active support of a genocide?’”
Polls show that Americans have generally been supportive of Israel and its response to the 7 October attack, though Morning Consult data released this week also shows the number of people who sympathize equally with Israelis and Palestinians is on the rise. That poll also showed support for Biden’s response is growing.
But Arab Americans who spoke with the Guardian said they did not know of anyone in their community who would vote for Biden in 2024. That could have profound consequences in a state in which Trump won by 10,000 votes in 2016, and a tight rematch is taking shape.
Still, the Biden administration has remained steadfastly supportive of Israel, proposing $14bn in aid; providing weapons such as missiles and armored personnel carriers; refusing calls for a ceasefire; and deploying US troops to the region. A Data for Progress poll released Thursday found 66% of Americans think the US should call for a ceasefire.
Is going after Hamas genocide?
I'm trying to understand what Israel is supposed to do, today.
From what I've been able to gather:
Allow aid in to Gaza.
Immediate ceasefire.
Negotiate for release of hostages.
Withdraw (?) from settlements in West Bank.
Declare two-state solution (?)
Are there other things not on the above list?
How does Hamas get handled in the above situation?
“I’ve gotten a few comments, ‘Well, the GOP is going to be worse,’ and my question is: ‘How can you get worse than active support of a genocide?’”
Committing it yourself.
The moral high ground would say they oughta crawl through building to building and tunnel to weed Hamas out. Just like how the western Coalition was forced to in Afghanistan and elsewhere against Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Ain't easy.
Of course, CQB in trapped hostile territory will be paid for in lots of Israeli blood so they're using indiscriminate bombing to push the blood cost to the Palestinians.
There isn't any simple solution here. All we can expect are more civilian deaths. Remember, this is a population that is 50% children. The Israelis and their allies are going to convert these surviving children and their children into terrorists. How does Biden's administration not see this?
A Data for Progress poll released Thursday found 66% of Americans think the US should call for a ceasefire.
This right here is the biggest difference between this open conflict and the ones in the past. The disconnect between the American people and US/ISR policy has never been this stark before, despite every attempt by the media, educational system, and government to align the American people with the perceived best interests of the Israelis. And that gulf is only going to get bigger and spread to other countries in the West if foreign nationals are among the dead in Gaza. And this is only Night 1 of the invasion; imagine if this turns into a major quagmire. Netanyahu's invasion of Gaza and the Biden Administration's backing of it are going to have long term political ramifications for years to come. And the costs to Palestine are obvious and too horrific to spell out.
This right here is the biggest difference between this open conflict and the ones in the past.
That and the youth vote. Young people, globally, are probably more pro-Palestine than at any prior point in history.
Thanks, Robear, for your response.
I'm not seeing anyone advocate for that approach. Could Israel sustain that type of campaign? ETA: sorry, this might have come across wrong. What I meant to say, "Are there others you're aware of that have advocated for a similar approach I could reac more about?"
From what I've been reading, Israeli defense strategy is to hit back as hard as possible as quickly as possible. That appears to be based on the thinking that Israel is small and surrounded by hostile entities, so they cannot sustain extended operations like a superpower could. Is it possible for Israel to spend years rooting out a 45k-person org in an urban environment like that?
Indeed, thanks for your response, Robear, well written.
To put this in perspective, OHCHR estimates that about 9600 Ukrainian civilians had died in the war in Ukraine by the end of last July, since it started Feb 24, 2022. Most of us had no trouble with the description of Russia's actions in attacking civilians as "war crimes", at a minimum, and "genocide", based on their repeated statements of intent.
I get your point - at the same time, you are comparing a war between two militaries (Ukr-Rus) with a war between a convential military (Isr) and a guerilla-style terrorist group (Hamas). The second type of conflict will always have way higher civilian deaths.
Regarding the word "genocide", it does bother me how it is used so inflationary, which imo devalues the term and what it represents. E.g., we don't describe US firebombing and killing 100,000 japanese people in WW2 in tokyo as genocide. Neither is the Bengal famine of 1943 (thought to have been caused by the british, killed 3 Million) described commonly as a genocide. I don't believe the war in Ukraine or in Israel justifies the term (from what we have seen so far).
To paraphrase Vlad Vexler: whether or not a war is justified, you can judge a country by its actions: are they trying not to kill non-combatants, or are they trying to not kill non-combatants.
I guess the civilian/combatant ratio is a useful way to compare the conduct of different militaries.
Looking at this briefly and taking wikipedia at face value, it seems Israel had a similar record to the US up till now, around a 1:2 civilian/combatant kill ratio with airstrikes. What is abundantly clear is that the current strikes have a very different cilivan/combatant casualty ratio.
The discussion about genocide I have seen mostly centers around the response being a deliberate attempt to annex Gaza and displace 1.2 million Palestinian civilians forcibly to refugee camps or into a diaspora.
I have been thinking of this a lot since I started my Spanish vacation. I am seeing monuments to the greatness of el cid, Ferdinand and Isabella, and Christopher Columbus and wondering if this is Netanyahu’s reconquista moment. Walking through the old “Jewish quarter” of Seville and remembering the story my college classmate told me about how her family still treasures the keys to a long destroyed house that has been passed down for generations since the 15th century.
We are witnessing a generational tragedy and a historic atrocity.
All we can expect are more civilian deaths. Remember, this is a population that is 50% children. The Israelis and their allies are going to convert these surviving children and their children into terrorists. How does Biden's administration not see this?
Giant bags of cash make it hard to see anything.
Regarding the word "genocide", it does bother me how it is used so inflationary, which imo devalues the term and what it represents. E.g., we don't describe US firebombing and killing 100,000 japanese people in WW2 in tokyo as genocide. Neither is the Bengal famine of 1943 (thought to have been caused by the british, killed 3 Million) described commonly as a genocide. I don't believe the war in Ukraine or in Israel justifies the term (from what we have seen so far).
I strongly suggest you examine the UN's definition of the word "genocide." Also keep in mind that merely bombing a city doesn't make an act of war a genocide. When you add cutting off access to food, water, fuel, and means of escape, however...
ETA: The term "genocide" didn't even exist until 1944, so that also could contribute to why some of your examples from the 1940's aren't commonly described as such.
I don’t see a single scenario in which Palestinians are allowed back to the ruins of Gaza city. Netanyahu will use this opportunity to bulldoze it to the ground, surround it with concentric concrete walls, and build free condos for the most militant and ignorant ultra orthodox settlers he can find.
The term "genocide" didn't even exist until 1944, so that also could contribute to why some of your examples from the 1940's aren't commonly described as such.
the word is used for other historical wars. e.g., the Celtic genocide by Caesar. It comes down to intent.
To cite from the UN definition:
THE SPECIFIC “INTENT” REQUIREMENT OF THE CRIME OF GENOCIDE:
The definition of Genocide is made up of two elements, the physical element — the acts committed; and the mental element — the intent. Intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group, though this may constitute a crime against humanity as set out in the Rome Statute. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique.
To constitute genocide, it also needs to be established that the victims are deliberately targeted — not randomly — because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the Convention. This means that the target of destruction must be the group, as such, or even a part of it, but not its members as individuals.
The "siege" of Gaza is horrific, it is a humanitarian crime and collective punishment. The intent seems to be a mix of retaliation, putting pressure on Hama's regarding hostages, cutting off their supplies, ... . I don't think Israeli leadership intends to eradicate Gaza Palestinians. Also the Gaza Strip is not a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.
Pages