
A place to post and discuss news related to the recent events in Israel, including the Hamas/Islamic Jihad incursion and repercussions.
Wow. Irony really is dead.
Temporarily locking the thread while the moderation team deliberates next steps.
*mod*
After discussing it with the mod team, we’ve decided to lock shihonage’s account before unlocking this thread again. The views shared breached our rules around hate speech.
We recognize this is a difficult and highly charged time for many, but there are limits to what is okay to express, even in the heat of the moment.
In a few months, if shihonage wants to use the contact form to discuss reinstating their account after some time to reflect, we will review it.
Everything about this -- from the conflict in the Middle East itself to the more personal eruptions like we witnessed here (and which I participated in once earlier in this thread myself) -- just makes me sad beyond the ability to put words to it.
In some ways, shihonage’s post is an "understandable" reaction in the sense of, people with boots on the ground and families at risk in conflict will have a certain perception of the situation which, unlike the rest of us with a bird's eye view who are privileged not to be directly endangered or with loved ones who are.
The instinctive reaction to want to lash out and hurt someone after being hurt is very human. You can see why it is encoded in the 'eye for an eye' passage which formed the root for most monotheistic modern religions. I don't condone the passage itself but I can relate to it at a very lizard brain level.
Like Farscry, the sadness lies in the tragedy on both sides with vested groups having a desire, indeed a modus operandi, of escalating the conflict at the cost externalised on innocents within their own camps.
It's a slap in the face to left-wing Jews, which Jewish reps like Jerry Nadler stated in more polite terms, calling the measure “either intellectually disingenuous or just factually wrong," but I know any guff myself or my kin might find from something like this is a fraction of what'll be weaponized against Palestinian-Americans, or any other gentiles who would dare to criticize the Israeli government's war crimes.
Great way to start Hanukkah (technically not starting until Thursday night, but it's around the corner). What better way to celebrate a guerrilla revolt against occupying invaders than by slapping anyone who'd criticize the contemporary occupiers?
is there a good definition of Zionism even? my understanding was it specifically refers to a religious state of Israel, I.e. anti-zionism is not the same as anti-israel (jewish religious vs national state).
Doesn't fully match the dictionary definition though, which is very general:
a political movement that was originally begun in order to establish an independent state for Jewish people, and now supports the development and protection of the state of Israel
is there a good definition of Zionism even?
The ADL has a backgrounder on that:
Zionism is the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, the land of Israel. The vast majority of Jews around the world feel a connection or kinship with Israel, whether or not they explicitly identify as Zionists, and regardless of their opinions on the policies of the Israeli government.
Mind you, the current head of the ADL has publicly conflated anti-zionism and anti-semitism, which everybody was totally cool with.
I didn't watch the various university Presidents' testimonies to Congress, but it sounds like it went about as well as you'd expect.
The presidents of three of the nation’s top universities are facing intense backlash, including from the White House, after they appeared to evade questions during a congressional hearing about whether calls by students for the genocide of Jews would constitute harassment under the schools’ codes of conduct.
In a contentious, hours-long debate on Tuesday, the presidents of Harvard, the University of Pennsylvania and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) sought to address the steps they were taking to combat rising antisemitism on campus since the beginning of the Israel-Hamas war. But it was their careful, indirect response to a question posed by the Republican congresswoman Elise Stefanik of New York that drew scathing criticism.
In an exchange that has now gone viral, Stefanik, a graduate of Harvard, pressed Elizabeth Magill, the president of UPenn, on Tuesday to say whether students calling for the genocide of Jews would be disciplined under the university’s code of conduct. In her line of questioning, Stefanik appeared to be conflating chants calling for “intifada” – a word that in Arabic means uprising, and has been used in reference to both peaceful and violent Palestinian protest – with hypothetical calls for genocide.
“If the speech turns into conduct, it can be harassment,” Magill replied, in a reference to distinctions in first amendment law. “It is a context-dependent decision.” Stefanik pushed her to answer “yes” or “no”, which Magill did not.
The backlash was swift and bipartisan.
“It’s unbelievable that this needs to be said: calls for genocide are monstrous and antithetical to everything we represent as a country,” said Andrew Bates, a White House spokesperson. “Any statements that advocate for the systematic murder of Jews are dangerous and revolting – and we should all stand firmly against them, on the side of human dignity and the most basic values that unite us as Americans.”
The White House was joined by several Jewish officials and leaders in condemning the university presidents’ testimony before the US House committee on education and the workforce, at a hearing called by Republicans titled Holding Campus Leaders Accountable and Confronting Antisemitism.
Josh Shapiro, the Democratic governor of Pennsylvania, said the simple response was “yes, that violates our policy.” Speaking to reporters on Wednesday, Shapiro urged UPenn’s board to meet soon, as a petition calling for Magill’s resignation garnered thousands of signatures. According to CNN, Penn’s board of trustees held an “emergency meeting” on Thursday.
The liberal Harvard law professor Laurence Tribe noted that he rarely agreed with Stefanik, a far-right Trump ally, but wrote: “I’m with her here.”
The Harvard president Claudine Gay’s “hesitant, formulaic, and bizarrely evasive answers were deeply troubling to me and many of my colleagues, students, and friends”. Tribe added.
I've read some analysis of the statements by the various university presidents, and it sounds like, short of violence, any disciplinary actions by the universities against speech (and only speech) would possibly run afoul of the 1st Amendment.
(Note, I am Canadian, so I may have misread/misinterpreted what they were saying.)
I've read some analysis of the statements by the various university presidents, and it sounds like, short of violence, any disciplinary actions by the universities against speech (and only speech) would possibly run afoul of the 1st Amendment.
(Note, I am Canadian, so I may have misread/misinterpreted what they were saying.)
I’m sorry I’m not buying it for American schools. Colleges (especially private ones) have a lot of leeway in how they enforce codes of conduct, and Harvard has come down hard on students posting racist stuff on private servers. I get and support the idea that you don’t want to punish legit criticisms of Israel, but if someone is actively cheering on Hamas they should be treated the same as some neo Nazi by the administration.
HuffPo link, FYI:
U.S. Officials Privately Raise Fears Of Israel-Gaza Conflict Sparking A Broader War
One week into the resumed Israeli military campaign in Gaza, U.S. officials and foreign policy experts are increasingly afraid Israel’s operation will fuel a broader conflict, drawing in Lebanon and expanding throughout the Middle East, potentially forcing American troops into the fight.
Biden administration officials at multiple government agencies have in recent days expressed concerns that Israel may be seeking American military aid for fighting in Lebanon, two U.S. officials told HuffPost. Such a step would mark a major escalation, almost certainly proving extremely deadly for civilians in both Lebanon and Israel. It could also force a confrontation with Iran, a regional heavyweight that backs the powerful Lebanese militia Hezbollah.
Officials were briefed on the Lebanon concerns before a Tuesday afternoon meeting of top policymakers from across the national security establishment, one official said. HuffPost interviewed multiple U.S. and foreign officials who were not authorized to speak on the record.
“This last week, the level of concern in D.C. about a potential war on the Israel-Lebanon front has gone up three or four notches,” said Randa Slim, a senior fellow at the Middle East Institute think tank.
Israel’s possible actions in Lebanon would be just the latest kindling for a major Mideast conflagration, following a string of attacks tied to Iran against U.S. troops in the region
On Sunday, a U.S. Navy warship and commercial vessels in a crucial global waterway near Yemen faced drone and missile strikes from an Iran-linked Yemeni armed group known as the Houthis that sparked an hours-long firefight, and on Wednesday an American destroyer shot down a Houthi drone. The Houthis have publicly said Israel’s moves in Gaza are motivating their assault, and the U.S. is now considering options for a show of force against the Houthis, officials say. The Pentagon has documented dozens of attacks against American forces throughout the Middle East, including in Iraq and Syria, in recent weeks. The Syria and Iraq incidents were discussed at the Tuesday meeting, according to a U.S. official.
And the source of much of the tension across the region ― the extremely high toll of Israel’s Gaza operation, which has killed two civilians for every militant, for a total death toll of more than 16,000 so far ― is far from abating. Despite repeated calls for Israeli restraint from senior figures in the Biden administration, U.S. intelligence assesses the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) are committed to “business as usual,” with only limited concern about civilian casualties, a U.S. official said, and there are suspicions the renewed campaign is actually bloodier than the previous offensive in northern Gaza.
“Humanitarian organizations are ringing the alarm bell more than they ever have during the conflict” in talking to the State Department, an official in the department said. Those aid groups are telling diplomats they may need to wind down their operations in Gaza given the heavy fighting, which would make the situation “dramatically worse,” the official said, on top of shortages of food and a rampant spread of disease among the 1.9 million Gazans forced out of their homes since Israel began its offensive in retaliation for an Oct. 7 attack by the Gaza-based group Hamas.
State Department spokespeople did not respond to requests for comment for this article. A White House official told HuffPost the Tuesday meeting of top officials did not include discussion of the Lebanon concerns.
Another State Department official told HuffPost: “This is a pivotal moment in history, and we should feel angry about how [Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu has literally put our reputation on fire to advance his personal political agenda. The collateral effects to American security are extremely consequential.”
However you feel about the conflict, I do think that obviously Israel, and by extension, the U.S.'s reputations have essentially been set aflame.
Prederick quoted:
And the source of much of the tension across the region ― the extremely high toll of Israel’s Gaza operation, which has killed two civilians for every militant, for a total death toll of more than 16,000 so far ― is far from abating.
very curious where they're getting that number from. seems off given the intensity of bombardment, and I don't think we'll have accurate estimates anytime soon.
Any numbers coming out of Gaza are coming from or approved by Hamas.
Very true. Power for the course for all governments though even the US. The bastions of democracy and freedom skew numbers wildly to make sure that they're population is kept placid
I didn't watch the various university Presidents' testimonies to Congress, but it sounds like it went about as well as you'd expect.
UPenn's Pres has apologized, now Harvard's.
I feel quite comfortable saying none of them are long for their jobs. They've got the VP's husband coming after them, they are absolutely DOA. They walked into a trap, and acquitted themselves terribly.
Whether or not the casualty numbers in Gaza are accurate or otherwise, dismissing them due to Hamas influence seems too Stalinesque for my taste. Does it matter if it's 10,000 vs 16,000? 2:1 or 1:1? Nobody except Israel and Russia are bombing and shelling civilians. That itself speaks loudly in my mind.
Well, Syria too, and for a lot longer... But then again, Russia's been helping them with that.
Yeah I didn't use Syria as an example because that's internal strife (otherwise a pile of African nations would be added to the pile as would Myanmar).
I dunno, all I want is an objective presentation of as highly accurate facts as possible; reporting continues to be incomplete, at least over here, with the media repeating the Israeli loss numbers and omitting the Palestinian losses. If info were presented to the public more consistently I wonder how much support Israel could rally in comparison to the propaganda that is being trotted out.
Oil prices crashed recently so perhaps there's a view the possibility of expansion in the present conflict is lower? It's the one indicator to watch, I think.
Prederick wrote:I didn't watch the various university Presidents' testimonies to Congress, but it sounds like it went about as well as you'd expect.
UPenn's Pres has apologized, now Harvard's.
I feel quite comfortable saying none of them are long for their jobs. They've got the VP's husband coming after them, they are absolutely DOA. They walked into a trap, and acquitted themselves terribly.
And now there’s an anonymous group flying provocative banners over the Harvard campus.
CW: it’s purposely provoking anti-Palestinian sentiment by using an antisemitic message
Worth reading in full.
Some excerpts:
“Nothing happens by accident,” said another source. “When a 3-year-old girl is killed in a home in Gaza, it’s because someone in the army decided it wasn’t a big deal for her to be killed — that it was a price worth paying in order to hit [another] target. We are not Hamas. These are not random rockets. Everything is intentional. We know exactly how much collateral damage there is in every home.”According to the investigation, another reason for the large number of targets, and the extensive harm to civilian life in Gaza, is the widespread use of a system called “Habsora” (“The Gospel”), which is largely built on artificial intelligence and can “generate” targets almost automatically at a rate that far exceeds what was previously possible. This AI system, as described by a former intelligence officer, essentially facilitates a “mass assassination factory.”
“Hamas is everywhere in Gaza; there is no building that does not have something of Hamas in it, so if you want to find a way to turn a high-rise into a target, you will be able to do so,” said one former intelligence official.
...
The third is “power targets,” which includes high-rises and residential towers in the heart of cities, and public buildings such as universities, banks, and government offices. The idea behind hitting such targets, say three intelligence sources who were involved in planning or conducting strikes on power targets in the past, is that a deliberate attack on Palestinian society will exert “civil pressure” on Hamas.
...
“They will never just hit a high-rise that does not have something we can define as a military target,” said another intelligence source, who carried out previous strikes against power targets. “There will always be a floor in the high-rise [associated with Hamas]. But for the most part, when it comes to power targets, it is clear that the target doesn’t have military value that justifies an attack that would bring down the entire empty building in the middle of a city, with the help of six planes and bombs weighing several tons.”
...
The final category consists of “family homes” or “operatives’ homes.” The stated purpose of these attacks is to destroy private residences in order to assassinate a single resident suspected of being a Hamas or Islamic Jihad operative.
...
Intelligence sources who served in the previous operations also told +972 and Local Call that, for 10 days in 2021 and three weeks in 2014, an attack rate of 100 to 200 targets per day led to a situation in which the Israeli Air Force had no targets of military value left. Why, then, after nearly two months, has the Israeli army not yet run out of targets in the current war?The answer may lie in a statement from the IDF Spokesperson on Nov. 2, according to which it is using the AI system Habsora (“The Gospel”), which the spokesperson says “enables the use of automatic tools to produce targets at a fast pace, and works by improving accurate and high-quality intelligence material according to [operational] needs.”
“This is a machine that, with the help of AI, processes a lot of data better and faster than any human, and translates it into targets for attack,” Kochavi went on. “The result was that in Operation Guardian of the Walls [in 2021], from the moment this machine was activated, it generated 100 new targets every day. You see, in the past there were times in Gaza when we would create 50 targets per year. And here the machine produced 100 targets in one day.”
A senior military official in charge of the target bank told the Jerusalem Post earlier this year that, thanks to the army’s AI systems, for the first time the military can generate new targets at a faster rate than it attacks.
Five different sources confirmed that the number of civilians who may be killed in attacks on private residences is known in advance to Israeli intelligence, and appears clearly in the target file under the category of “collateral damage.”
According to these sources, there are degrees of collateral damage, according to which the army determines whether it is possible to attack a target inside a private residence. “When the general directive becomes ‘Collateral Damage 5,’ that means we are authorized to strike all targets that will kill five or less civilians — we can act on all target files that are five or less,” said one of the sources.
"In the past, we did not regularly mark the homes of junior Hamas members for bombing,” said a security official who participated in attacking targets during previous operations. “In my time, if the house I was working on was marked Collateral Damage 5, it would not always be approved [for attack].” Such approval, he said, would only be received if a senior Hamas commander was known to be living in the home.
“To my understanding, today they can mark all the houses of [any Hamas military operative regardless of rank],” the source continued. “That is a lot of houses. Hamas members who don’t really matter for anything live in homes across Gaza. So they mark the home and bomb the house and kill everyone there.”
Prederick wrote:Prederick wrote:I didn't watch the various university Presidents' testimonies to Congress, but it sounds like it went about as well as you'd expect.
UPenn's Pres has apologized, now Harvard's.
I feel quite comfortable saying none of them are long for their jobs. They've got the VP's husband coming after them, they are absolutely DOA. They walked into a trap, and acquitted themselves terribly.
And now there’s an anonymous group flying provocative banners over the Harvard campus.
CW: it’s purposely provoking anti-Palestinian sentiment by using an antisemitic message
Magill is out at UPenn and so is the Board chair.
Netanyahu helped Qataris fund Hamas
Major General Amos Gilad, a former senior Israeli Defense Ministry official, told CNN the plan was backed by the prime minister, but not by the Israeli intelligence community. There was also some belief that it would “weaken Palestinian sovereignty,” he said. There was also an illusion, he added, that “if you fed them (Hamas) with money, they would be tamed.”
They are the monster you created, Bibi.
Five different sources confirmed that the number of civilians who may be killed in attacks on private residences is known in advance to Israeli intelligence, and appears clearly in the target file under the category of “collateral damage.”
you-get-how-thats-worse-right.jpg
Israel and US show sharp divisions over mounting casualties and future of war against Hamas
Israel and the United States on Tuesday showed their sharpest public disagreement yet over the conduct and future of the war on Hamas as the two allies became increasingly isolated by global calls for a cease-fire.
The dispute emerged while Israeli forces carried out strikes across Gaza, crushing Palestinians in homes.
President Joe Biden said he told Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that Israel was losing international support because of its “indiscriminate bombing” and that Netanyahu should change his government, which is dominated by hard-right parties.
Biden’s comments came as the White House national security adviser heads to Israel this week to discuss with Netanyahu a timetable for the war — and what happens if Hamas is defeated. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin will travel to Israel next week for a visit the Pentagon said aims to show U.S. support for Israel but also to press the need to avoid more civilian casualties in Gaza.
UN general assembly votes to demand Gaza ceasefire
The UN general assembly overwhelmingly voted to demand an immediate humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza.The resolution for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire passed with 153 members voting in favor, 10 voting against, and 23 abstaining.
The countries that voted against included:
The United States
Austria
Israel
ParaguayThe United Kingdom voted to abstain.
Curious to know what Nauru's investment in this is. Or Liberia. Or Paraguay.
Someone has to tell me this is fake, right?
twitter video of him saying this
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