[Discussion] Police, White Nationalists, and the Rise of Fascism

That's why I'm a hermit who has barely left my property for the past year.

Paleocon wrote:

I have a clear case of America fatigue.

Compassion fatigue. Outrage fatigue. It’s real. I get to the point where I’m raging on the inside but totally numb in the outside. It’s exhausting.

Paleocon wrote:

I just got done telling someone else that I just can't anymore. The whole American ethic of "rugged individuality" basically boils down to aggressive, in your face, selfishness. Folks just being sh*tty because they can and the more privileged, the more sh*tty they are. Americans are f*cking exhausting and I need a break from them.

I have a clear case of America fatigue.

Deep same. The silver lining is that a lot of people are disowning this whole sh*tty ethos. Maybe the pandemic woke them up, maybe it was before.

Anna puts it better than I can.

Everyone I know is on notice. Anyone who isn't on board with this, ALL of this, has no role in my life and can go f themselves. I won't cross the street to piss on them if they are on fire.

Malor wrote:

It may be a testimony to white privilege (or white blindness) that I haven't even heard about Asian women getting punched?

It's also a testimony to mainstream media, wholly complicit in maintaining a racial status quo, that doesn't want to highlight or further acknowledge their culpability in mostly not covering the increase in racist hate crimes against Asians that has been happening since 45 fanned flames by calling it "the china virus." They continued to further platform his hatred by continually repeating it to their white target audiences. Because polarizing, unpopular opinions (especially among the reknown) drives traffic.

A lot of hate crimes against Asians are classified as something else and usually go unrecognized as such.

Also there's too many non-white, non-male, non-rich people getting beaten, murdered, and disappeared multiple times a day every day for it to make the news unless something polarizing happens. Apparently, it takes some white guy having a "bad day" for the media to notice or care.

I had to respond to a high school friend on FB who posted some sh*t. I honestly tried to be as empathetic as possible.

I have seen you post similar stuff in the past and am sincerely worried about you. These "alternative fact" (Kellyanne Conway's term) only serve to misinform you to the point that the outrage you think is yours is simply manufactured by "entertainers" that have sworn in courts of law (and presumably to your very god) that they think you're an idiot. Read the defense arguments for Tucker Carlson and Sidney Powell in their defamation suits if you have any doubt.

I am concerned because I have seen those same arguments prompt a North Carolina man to shoot up a DC pizza parlor. And more recently, they resulted in a riotous act of sedition at the Capitol and, likely, the convictions of many and incarceration in federal prisons.

Seek help. Seriously. This descent into madness leads nowhere fulfilling.

I am not laughing at you. They are. I am mourning the loss of a friend.

Paleocon wrote:

I had to respond to a high school friend on FB who posted some sh*t. I honestly tried to be as empathetic as possible.

I have seen you post similar stuff in the past and am sincerely worried about you. These "alternative fact" (Kellyanne Conway's term) only serve to misinform you to the point that the outrage you think is yours is simply manufactured by "entertainers" that have sworn in courts of law (and presumably to your very god) that they think you're an idiot. Read the defense arguments for Tucker Carlson and Sidney Powell in their defamation suits if you have any doubt.

I am concerned because I have seen those same arguments prompt a North Carolina man to shoot up a DC pizza parlor. And more recently, they resulted in a riotous act of sedition at the Capitol and, likely, the convictions of many and incarceration in federal prisons.

Seek help. Seriously. This descent into madness leads nowhere fulfilling.

I am not laughing at you. They are. I am mourning the loss of a friend.

I think your note to your friend is spot on. I can tell that you care about this friend and are truly mourning the loss of this friend. I’m sure I don’t need to tell you this, but try not to be too disappointed if it doesn’t get the response you desire. Good luck.

I hope it works. It was a nice message.

My experience says that I have never found the magic method for reaching people. Maybe it is that each person needs a different thing to reach them. I don't know

Nobody ever changes their viewpoint on something large and important because of just one message or conversation. So you say your piece, and maybe it's the last in a series of things that gets them to reconsider their way of thinking and they seem receptive. Or maybe it's the first, and they seem entirely unreceptive, but five years later they turn themselves around and you never know about it because you've long since given up and lost touch.

farley3k wrote:

I hope it works. It was a nice message.

My experience says that I have never found the magic method for reaching people. Maybe it is that each person needs a different thing to reach them. I don't know

I like to think of it as straw on a camel's back. People need a lot of things to weigh down their own biases before they'll reach a point of introspection to begin with. Even then, the balance might end up with a minor course change or none at all.

On a private level addressed to someone I want to maintain a relationship with, there's usually respectful disagreement backed by reasoning. The goal isn't to change them (though there's hope it's another straw), it's to make sure my friend isn't living in a bubble where they're unable to grow. If things become too toxic though, I'll fully speak my piece and put them on the other side of the guard rails.

In public (Facebook, here, etc.) I make more of an effort not to directly engage. Instead the goal is to make statements which support people who might feel the same way as me, but are more reluctant to speak out. The goal still isn't to change anyone in particular (which IMO is even more of a lost cause when applied to a stranger). It's to provide some enlightenment and support all around. This keeps it from becoming personal. If I do make it personal in public... well... that's likely the last time somebody is going to be directly addressed by me as it's not something I intend to repeat.

Edit: hbi2k said about as much.

I guess my point in crafting that response is that I interpreted the attraction of those arguments as coming from a place of insecurity and fear of increased irrelevance. He wasn't the most confident person in high school and I could see the QAnon/Trump sh*t resonating with him because the erosion of white privilege and the discomfort of having to accept a society where people of color are afforded the room to be complex is more than he can manage.

And yes, I am tired of making excuses for white people, but I felt if he was reachable at all, it would require breaking through his victimization.

Paleocon wrote:

I guess my point in crafting that response is that I interpreted the attraction of those arguments as coming from a place of insecurity and fear of increased irrelevance. He wasn't the most confident person in high school and I could see the QAnon/Trump sh*t resonating with him because the erosion of white privilege and the discomfort of having to accept a society where people of color are afforded the room to be complex is more than he can manage.

And yes, I am tired of making excuses for white people, but I felt if he was reachable at all, it would require breaking through his victimization.

It's such a fine line, how to navigate this with friends and relatives without accommodating their racist and/or fascistic views, but I think you've managed it. I have to believe many of the MAGA and QAnon folks know deep in their hearts that they are just making crap up, but society, media, and one still-powerful political party has sanctioned every sordid, awful thought in their heads. The Trump adjacency has hit very close to home for me, and I just cannot deal with it in your patient, humane way.

Paleocon wrote:

I guess my point in crafting that response is that I interpreted the attraction of those arguments as coming from a place of insecurity and fear of increased irrelevance. He wasn't the most confident person in high school and I could see the QAnon/Trump sh*t resonating with him because the erosion of white privilege and the discomfort of having to accept a society where people of color are afforded the room to be complex is more than he can manage.

And yes, I am tired of making excuses for white people, but I felt if he was reachable at all, it would require breaking through his victimization.

Great attempt to reach him. Hope it plants a seed (or adds a straw) if nothing else.

Natus wrote:

I have to believe many of the MAGA and QAnon folks know deep in their hearts that they are just making crap up, but society, media, and one still-powerful political party has sanctioned every sordid, awful thought in their heads.

I think this, too. Look how quickly Sydney Powell rejected her own words when confronted with consequences. My fear, though, is what happens when there are no consequences to this deadly theater.

JLS wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I guess my point in crafting that response is that I interpreted the attraction of those arguments as coming from a place of insecurity and fear of increased irrelevance. He wasn't the most confident person in high school and I could see the QAnon/Trump sh*t resonating with him because the erosion of white privilege and the discomfort of having to accept a society where people of color are afforded the room to be complex is more than he can manage.

And yes, I am tired of making excuses for white people, but I felt if he was reachable at all, it would require breaking through his victimization.

Great attempt to reach him. Hope it plants a seed (or adds a straw) if nothing else.

Natus wrote:

I have to believe many of the MAGA and QAnon folks know deep in their hearts that they are just making crap up, but society, media, and one still-powerful political party has sanctioned every sordid, awful thought in their heads.

I think this, too. Look how quickly Sydney Powell rejected her own words when confronted with consequences. My fear, though, is what happens when there are no consequences to this deadly theater.

I have to think that all this pearl clutching over "cancel culture" is precisely the attempt to create an atmosphere of defamation without consequences.

Have a read of this CNN articleabout the SF Asian elder lady who was attacked unprovoked.

It seems the white guy who attacked her first was running away from a security guard who was trying to catch him for beating up an elder Asian man just prior to that. And yet the police are still investigating whether there was [racial] bias at play.

Well of course it was. He'd beat up an Asian man and within the same hour an Asian woman. Why don't they call it out for what it is? This is just as bad as the police messaging over the massage parlour mass shooter.

Natus wrote:

I have to believe many of the MAGA and QAnon folks know deep in their hearts that they are just making crap up, but society, media, and one still-powerful political party has sanctioned every sordid, awful thought in their heads.

You left out churches. Most of these psychos are getting it reinforced every Sunday.

#TaxTheChurches

Stele wrote:

#TaxTheChurches

Okay, but only if we can call the new tax law the "Render Unto Caesar Act."

Paleocon wrote:

I have to think that all this pearl clutching over "cancel culture" is precisely the attempt to create an atmosphere of defamation without consequences.

::nod::

RawkGWJ wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I have to think that all this pearl clutching over "cancel culture" is precisely the attempt to create an atmosphere of defamation without consequences.

::nod::

LOL. I read that as ::mod:: for a hot second and sighed.

Paleocon wrote:
RawkGWJ wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I have to think that all this pearl clutching over "cancel culture" is precisely the attempt to create an atmosphere of defamation without consequences.

::nod::

LOL. I read that as ::mod:: for a hot second and sighed.

No way, I put a like on that post.

very long, but EXTREMELY good. A lot deeper than the surface and goes into not just the history of Anti Asian hate, but the mechanisms for how a lot of the dangerous stereotyping has become internalized in the community. Block out the hour or so. It is well worth the viewing.

We Need To Talk About Anti-Asian Hate, The Try Guys/Eugene Lee Yang

This is from a f*ckING YEAR ago.

Ronny Chieng's Response to Jesse Watters' Anti-Asian Racism The Daily Show

For YouTube (and Hulu) videos, (especially in threads like this one) may I ask that we post the title of the video with the video so folks outside the US can search the internet for alternatives to watch, or check it out later on the work VPN? Many show a black box with "not available in your country" without further details. Not keen on copying a link from a black box without knowing what might be on the other end first?

The last two or three episodes of the podcast Even More News has had some deep conversations about anti-Asian racism. One of those episodes was published three days before the Atlanta murder spree took place. Chilling really.

RawkGWJ wrote:

The last two or three episodes of the podcast Even More News has had some deep conversations about anti-Asian racism. One of those episodes was published three days before the Atlanta murder spree took place. Chilling really.

Yeah, I listened to that podcast before that big shooting, and when I heard the news... whelp.

If you have ever been in high pressure sales, you fundamentally understand the mentality of modern policing.

Just as a salesman picks up the phone with the intention of making a sale, a police officer begins a police interaction with the intention of making a citation or arrest. That is simply the nature of their jobs. Both are evaluated by quotas (or the law enforcement euphemism "metrics"). Both are paid for production. Both are under tremendous pressure to meet production expectations and are stack ranked against their peers.

And if you are any good at sales, you realize that the science of sales demands that you keep the funnel filled as your closure rate between universe and customer is usually in the low single digits. Success depends on researching and selecting your prospects, hustling to hit as many as you can, and continuing to pressure for upsell in the sales world. The same applies to law enforcement. You hunt in environments where folks are likely to provide the pretext for police interaction, you stop as many as you can, and you escalate through guile, instigation, or intimidation until you can elicit the maximum charge for which you can cite or arrest.

As any good salesperson knows, the easiest prospect to sell is the customer who has bought before. And slightly less easy is the prospect that has interacted with you in the past. This is why capturing prospect and sales data is so vitally important to every sales organization. The same is true in policing. Once someone is in the system for any reason at all, they are automatically targeted for heavy pressure. It doesn't matter if the interaction ultimately resulted in your case being dismissed or charges never being brought. The fact that your name appears in their system makes them salivate at the higher probability of a "close".

This is why pretextual stops, stop and identify, stop and frisk, and other clear violations of the fourth amendment matter (among several other very good reasons). This is also why you should never voluntarily cooperate with a pretextual stop.

That’s why the American police system needs to be razed to the ground and rebuilt with a focus on respect for community. The real problem is the police unions. Police unions, AND ONLY POLICE UNIONS, have way too much power and influence under the law and within the law.

Probably not surprising to anyone here, police unions are white supremest and have been since their inception. Don’t believe me? Look for yourself. Here’s a hint: start looking in Portland, OR.

I just had the mindblowing thought that Glengarry Glenross could just as easily been a compelling cop movie.

Wil Stancil on Twitter had an interesting take on white supremacist culture in videogames. I've been wondering why we had all these games with Northern European types looking like Proud Boys.

Natus wrote:

Wil Stancil on Twitter had an interesting take on white supremacist culture in videogames. I've been wondering why we had all these games with Northern European types looking like Proud Boys.

It was briefly rebranded as g*m*rg*t* and various parts of reddit as a facet of geek/nerd/etc culture. Gaming has a massive white supremecy problem, and the crossover unfortunately means a bunch of Neonazis and supremesists have also started cosplaying as video game edge lords and vikings n sh*t.