[Discussion] Police, White Nationalists, and the Rise of Fascism

RawkGWJ wrote:

I caught flak from Mrs Rawk for having this attitude. It’s not that I’m a negative nelly, it’s that I DO see the forest for the trees.

Yeah, I was in the same boat on the group thread. One friend's response was "you can't sustain progress if you don't let yourself celebrate the victories", which I think has some validity, but the scope of the problem is so many orders of magnitude bigger than one cop that I'm struggling to see the route from here to meaningful systemic change.

Jonman wrote:
RawkGWJ wrote:

I caught flak from Mrs Rawk for having this attitude. It’s not that I’m a negative nelly, it’s that I DO see the forest for the trees.

Yeah, I was in the same boat on the group thread. One friend's response was "you can't sustain progress if you don't let yourself celebrate the victories", which I think has some validity, but the scope of the problem is so many orders of magnitude bigger than one cop that I'm struggling to see the route from here to meaningful systemic change.

IMAGE(https://i.imgur.com/ry3Si7W.png)

Before yesterday only seven police officers had been convicted of murder since 2005 (when they started tracking police crime).

Only 140 officers had even been charged with a crime when they killed someone.

Prosecutors only managed to convict 44 officers, the majority on much lesser offences than murder.

To put those numbers in some context, since 2005 cops have shot and killed about 15,000 civilians.

And that 15,000 figure is mostly based on self-reports from police departments (which was proven to undercount civilian deaths by several hundred per year) and doesn't include non-shooting deaths, like what happened to George Floyd, Freddy Gray, Eric Garner, or countless others.

You can celebrate the win, but, yeah, the magnitude of the problem is insane.

That's what I was expecting yesterday, guilty of manslaughter but not murder. Because that's what always happens. So this was a step. How big, and how much momentum it helps, remains to be seen.

The Root: Justice, I Guess.

On May 25, 2020, George Perry Floyd, was alive.
OG_slinger wrote:

... since 2005 cops have shot and killed about 15,000 civilians.

Only 140 officers had even been charged with a crime when they killed someone.

Prosecutors only managed to convict 44 officers, the majority on much lesser offences than murder.

Before yesterday only seven police officers had been convicted of murder since 2005 (when they started tracking police crime).

And that 15,000 figure is mostly based on self-reports from police departments (which was proven to undercount civilian deaths by several hundred per year) and doesn't include non-shooting deaths, like what happened to George Floyd, Freddy Gray, Eric Garner, or countless others.

Just let that sink in. Dwell on those numbers for a few minutes. And then remind yourself that the 15,000 is self reported. Voluntarily. Not a requirement. No official oversight by anyone.

My guess is that the real number is somewhere around 40,000. Maybe higher.

Police forces act as if minority groups are armed insurgents. The whole act of policing in this country is built around that fact. Look at how many unarmed black and brown people are shot dead, and how many *armed* white people are taken alive. How many white mass murderers are taken alive. Reform can't fix "hunting black people."

Natus wrote:

Police forces act as if minority groups are armed insurgents. The whole act of policing in this country is built around that fact. Look at how many unarmed black and brown people are shot dead, and how many *armed* white people are taken alive. How many white mass murderers are taken alive. Reform can't fix "hunting black people."

I agree. Reform is a painfully slow process. What we need is a revolution. What if the thing that happened in the summer of 2020 in Portland, OR happened in 75% of major US cities? At the same time?

RawkGWJ wrote:
Natus wrote:

Police forces act as if minority groups are armed insurgents. The whole act of policing in this country is built around that fact. Look at how many unarmed black and brown people are shot dead, and how many *armed* white people are taken alive. How many white mass murderers are taken alive. Reform can't fix "hunting black people."

I agree. Reform is a painfully slow process. What we need is a revolution. What if the thing that happened in the summer of 2020 in Portland, OR happened in 75% of major US cities? At the same time?

Painfully slow is an understatement.

It's been nearly a century since the Wickersham Commission found that the police routinely inflict physical or mental pain to extract confessions and widespread corruption.

A big part of the call for blowing the entire system up is because the police have been undergoing "reform" on an ongoing basis since the 60s and yet the same problems--racial profiling, excessive force, etc.--still exist.

The only major change is that White America's perception of policing as a societal good is being slowly dismantled by the large and growing body of cell phone video that's documented the same police abuses Black people have been screaming about for *decades.* Last summer's protests also shook some White folks because they saw how their Whiteness wasn't going to protect them from a cop beating their ass.

RawkGWJ wrote:

I caught flak from Mrs Rawk for having this attitude. It’s not that I’m a negative nelly, it’s that I DO see the forest for the trees.

Same here, and I think my wife is similarly frustrated with me for the same reason.

I get the catharsis of yesterday's verdict, and its necessity. And it does feel like a moment to take a relieved breath.

But that's all it seems like, in the greater context. I fully expect a mainstream white response to further cases that is effectively "aren't You People happy? You got your pound of flesh, now leave us alone!"

Farscry wrote:
RawkGWJ wrote:

I caught flak from Mrs Rawk for having this attitude. It’s not that I’m a negative nelly, it’s that I DO see the forest for the trees.

Same here, and I think my wife is similarly frustrated with me for the same reason.

I get the catharsis of yesterday's verdict, and its necessity. And it does feel like a moment to take a relieved breath.

But that's all it seems like, in the greater context. I fully expect a mainstream white response to further cases that is effectively "aren't You People happy? You got your pound of flesh, now leave us alone!"

I fully expect white people to use this as an example of white persecution.

Mixolyde wrote:

I fully expect white people to use this as an example of white persecution.

I see you've already met Ben Shapiro...

I'd be in the news for Nazi-punching if I ever met Ben Shapiro.

Mixolyde wrote:

I'd be in the news for Nazi-punching if I ever met Ben Shapiro.

Nah, don't punch down. Seriously, he could be like a foot shorter than you; don't throw your shoulder out on his account.

Better be careful, while the rest of us lived our lives, young Benny Shaps studied the blade.
IMAGE(https://i.postimg.cc/RCfD1yKb/e0381dchv5n31.jpg)

Oh! Benny Shap is the “rap is not music” guy? I know there’s more than one, but he’s one of the most prominent right?

My far right friend recommended that I read some Bennie Shap. I didn’t find anything remotely interesting. But THIS is interesting.

RawkGWJ wrote:

My far right friend recommended that I read some Bennie Shap. I didn’t find anything remotely interesting. But THIS is interesting.

Run far away.

It's quite unnerving how consistently Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson infiltrate my Recommended for You feed on YouTube. I'm on high alert for my teenage son, who watches a lot of StarCraft 2 replays there. I've heard stories of teen boys getting very easily hooked on this crap very quickly.

RawkGWJ wrote:

My far right friend recommended that I read some Bennie Shap. I didn’t find anything remotely interesting. But THIS is interesting.

Anyone sincerely recommending Ben Shapiro, and not in a "get a load of this asshole" way, is not your friend. They are looking forward to the day they can commit you to a concentration camp for liberals and BIPOC.

Mixolyde wrote:
RawkGWJ wrote:

My far right friend recommended that I read some Bennie Shap. I didn’t find anything remotely interesting. But THIS is interesting.

Anyone sincerely recommending Ben Shapiro, and not in a "get a load of this asshole" way, is not your friend. They are looking forward to the day they can commit you to a concentration re-education camp for liberals and BIPOC.

FTFY

Nevin73 wrote:
Mixolyde wrote:
RawkGWJ wrote:

My far right friend recommended that I read some Bennie Shap. I didn’t find anything remotely interesting. But THIS is interesting.

Anyone sincerely recommending Ben Shapiro, and not in a "get a load of this asshole" way, is not your friend. They are looking forward to the day they can commit you to a concentration re-education camp for liberals and BIPOC.

FTFY

I actually think concentration camp is more accurate terminology. The alt-right were in 2015 already posting memes and avatars about dropping people from helicopters a la The Dirty War. If anything, their intentions have become more genocidal since then after multiple setbacks.

Natus wrote:
Nevin73 wrote:
Mixolyde wrote:
RawkGWJ wrote:

My far right friend recommended that I read some Bennie Shap. I didn’t find anything remotely interesting. But THIS is interesting.

Anyone sincerely recommending Ben Shapiro, and not in a "get a load of this asshole" way, is not your friend. They are looking forward to the day they can commit you to a concentration re-education camp for liberals and BIPOC.

FTFY

I actually think concentration camp is more accurate terminology. The alt-right were in 2015 already posting memes and avatars about dropping people from helicopters a la The Dirty War. If anything, their intentions have become more genocidal since then after multiple setbacks.

Yes, I deliberately chose that word for accuracy. I won't use the language of the oppressors, even for snark. It adds legitimacy, even if it's being mocked.

Mixolyde wrote:
RawkGWJ wrote:

My far right friend recommended that I read some Bennie Shap. I didn’t find anything remotely interesting. But THIS is interesting.

Anyone sincerely recommending Ben Shapiro, and not in a "get a load of this asshole" way, is not your friend. They are looking forward to the day they can commit you to a concentration camp for liberals and BIPOC.

I had a certain social group in which it was known that I was generally the most liberal person in the room. We mostly didn't talk politics or current events; when we did, we'd always tread carefully around one another, because we knew there were things we disagreed about and nobody really wanted to get into an argument. Occasionally when political subjects came up, they would frame some of the milder right-wing talking points in a "devil's advocate" way and we'd have a respectful little debate about it.

I wound up leaving that group for unrelated reasons, but I'm still in a Whatsapp group chat that I don't think they know I never left. I happened to open it up again the other day and got a load of how they talk to each other when I'm not in the room.

f*cking disgusting. Scumbags, the lot of them.

Nevin73 wrote:
Mixolyde wrote:
RawkGWJ wrote:

My far right friend recommended that I read some Bennie Shap. I didn’t find anything remotely interesting. But THIS is interesting.

Anyone sincerely recommending Ben Shapiro, and not in a "get a load of this asshole" way, is not your friend. They are looking forward to the day they can commit you to a concentration re-education camp for liberals and BIPOC.

FTFY

So you know those types of white dudes who are NOT white supremacists, but don’t know how racist they really are? That’s this guy. Believe me when I say that he’s a good guy at his heart. He was born and raised in the south, but now lives in Orange County, CA.

I’ll call him Cdog for now. Cdog and I can talk politics and stay respectful with each other despite our seemingly polar opposite political views. I can’t even talk politics with my centrist Democrat friends. The centrists that I know think they know everything. The centrists are surprisingly much more racist than Cdog.

I keep cajoling Cdog to listen to Robert Evans’s Behind the Bastards podcast. I don’t think he has given it a chance yet. Cdog is a history buff and the two of us talk history pretty often. I think he would enjoy Behind the Bastards from a history standpoint, though he will shirley cringe at Evans’s political views. I think it would be fun to discuss BtB episodes with Cdog, but I doubt he’ll ever listen.

I asked Cdog to recommend to me a right wing talking head who is more of an intellectual than a shock jock, and he instantly recommended Ben Shapiro. I’m already familiar with Ben Shapiro’s schtick, but I’ve never found anything he says compelling. I did some googles of BS to try to find something interesting that could be a conversation starter for me and Cdog. I came up empty. I understand why righties think BS is a great thinker. Problem is, righties apparently don’t understand what the words thinker and intellectual mean. BS is a skilled bullsh*tter who tries to own the libs. Yes. Righties love that kind of sh*t.

The point I’m taking forever to make is that it wasn’t an unsolicited recommendation. I specifically asked for a recommendation. Am I sorry I did? Yes. Yes I am.

But... if BS is big on the “rap is not music” tip, then I now have something worth talking about. I love music. I especially love rap music. I could debate BS right this minute on whether or not rap is music and I would destroy BS.

Natus wrote:

It's quite unnerving how consistently Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson infiltrate my Recommended for You feed on YouTube. I'm on high alert for my teenage son, who watches a lot of StarCraft 2 replays there. I've heard stories of teen boys getting very easily hooked on this crap very quickly.

Every now and then the algorithm feeds me a Steven Crowder video. I usually report them and they disappear from my recommendations for a while.

The point I'm making is that if this person is taking Ben Shapiro seriously, he is a white supremacist, whether he says it out loud or not.

RawkGWJ wrote:
Nevin73 wrote:
Mixolyde wrote:
RawkGWJ wrote:

My far right friend recommended that I read some Bennie Shap. I didn’t find anything remotely interesting. But THIS is interesting.

Anyone sincerely recommending Ben Shapiro, and not in a "get a load of this asshole" way, is not your friend. They are looking forward to the day they can commit you to a concentration re-education camp for liberals and BIPOC.

FTFY

So you know those types of white dudes who are NOT white supremacists, but don’t know how racist they really are? That’s this guy. Believe me when I say that he’s a good guy at his heart. He was born and raised in the south, but now lives in Orange County, CA.

The California Confederacy.

RawkGWJ wrote:

I asked Cdog to recommend to me a right wing talking head who is more of an intellectual than a shock jock, and he instantly recommended Ben Shapiro.

There are no right-wing intellectuals anymore. The only truly conservative intellectuals have abandoned the party. MAGAs don't actually want intellectualism, which required education and nuance to understand it, but the *appearance* of intellectualism. That's why you see so many right-wingers on Twitter with the names of Greek and Roman philosophers. All they really want is a way to troll the libs and minority groups. Bari Weiss, Bret Stephens, and Andrew Sullivan are all part of this. There is a LOT of money in giving cover to fascism and racism. Yes, it's always been that way, but especially now.

Natus wrote:

There are no right-wing intellectuals anymore. The only truly conservative intellectuals have abandoned the party. MAGAs don't actually want intellectualism, which required education and nuance to understand it, but the *appearance* of intellectualism. That's why you see so many right-wingers on Twitter with the names of Greek and Roman philosophers. All they really want is a way to troll the libs and minority groups. Bari Weiss, Bret Stephens, and Andrew Sullivan are all part of this. There is a LOT of money in giving cover to fascism and racism. Yes, it's always been that way, but especially now.

This.

Because of that , Shippy-Ship-Shaps, like so many of the high profile right-wing "intellectuals" is a grifter cosplaying as an ideologue. And even then it's sh*tty cosplay - his positions are nonsensical, self-contradictory and liable to spin on a dime when he thinks he can grift harder by changing tack. It's not what you say, it's the vitriol with which you say it while presenting yourself as a "serious intellectual".

RawkGWJ wrote:

I asked Cdog to recommend to me a right wing talking head who is more of an intellectual than a shock jock, and he instantly recommended Ben Shapiro. I’m already familiar with Ben Shapiro’s schtick, but I’ve never found anything he says compelling. I did some googles of BS to try to find something interesting that could be a conversation starter for me and Cdog. I came up empty. I understand why righties think BS is a great thinker. Problem is, righties apparently don’t understand what the words thinker and intellectual mean. BS is a skilled bullsh*tter who tries to own the libs. Yes. Righties love that kind of sh*t.

I haven't given up on Twitter yet because I just love to see historian Kevin Kruse slap down historical source receipt after receipt whenever convicted felon and fake intellectual Dinesh D'Souza says something stupid or just provably wrong about politics or American history, which happens pretty much all the time.

I feel like I pretty clearly remember all the people saying Libs are going too far by claiming a bad apple ruins the bunch arguing, back when Trump tried to do his refugee ban, "if I gave you a bowl of jellybeans and told you one was poison, would you eat it? No. Of course not."

Weird.

The far right personality that is currently driving me crazy is Candace Owens. Several conservative family members and Facebook friends have shared her comments at how Chauvin got railroaded. I’m amazed at that take given this would be the perfect opportunity to play up how the system worked as intended.

Sadly, I can’t provide counter arguments without being told that she’s a lawyer so way smarter than me, and that I’m the real racist disagreeing with a Black woman.