[Discussion] Impeachment, Legacy, and Discussion of Individual 45

Though noted as discussion, news, debate, and all things related to events that occurred during the Tr*mp administration can go here. The scope of this thread is specific to the former administration and it's hangers-on in the aftermath of the shift in power for the United States and impacted areas worldwide.

DSGamer wrote:

The Democrats better be planning to get rid of the filibuster and go to the mat for democracy. If they caved in calling witnesses only to be thwarted in the Senate this will all have been for nothing.

Would witnesses have changed any of the 43 acquittal votes?

Tanglebones wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

The Democrats better be planning to get rid of the filibuster and go to the mat for democracy. If they caved in calling witnesses only to be thwarted in the Senate this will all have been for nothing.

Would witnesses have changed any of the 43 acquittal votes?

Absolutely not. My point is we deserved an honest inquiry to put the full truth on the record. I assume the reason they didn’t go that route is because they knew it would waste precious legislative time, so I hope they’re actually planning to use that time to the fullest.

We're going to see 57-43 acquitted repeated without context as though that meant 57 voted to acquit him.

Agent 86 wrote:

Geez guys it was just a goofy, little coup attempt, it’s not like somebody got a blowjob.

Am I the only person here that thinks that event was also a gross abuse of power and definitely impeachable? That kind of thing still happens all the time and joking about it is awful.

Edit: Not a personal attack on Agent, I just think we can all do better here.

Mixolyde wrote:
Agent 86 wrote:

Geez guys it was just a goofy, little coup attempt, it’s not like somebody got a blowjob.

Am I the only person here that thinks that event was also a gross abuse of power and definitely impeachable? That kind of thing still happens all the time and joking about it is awful.

Edit: Not a personal attack on Agent, I just think we can all do better here.

I think it was gross and a huge abuse of power, but I don’t think it was worthy of impeachment. So I am half way there with you.

Welp, I've contacted both of my Senators to ask them to get rid of the filibuster and to start getting sh*t done.

Fascism values loyalty above all else. All evidence points towards the Republican Party being in favor of a minority nationalist ruler for the US. (Political minority not racial minority)

If you had any doubts about that before, you can dispel those doubts now.

I'm seeing a lot of people talk about Trump's presidential run in 2024, but they're framing it in a way that sounds like they think it'll be an issue in 2024. I think it'll be an issue this year.

He still doesn't think he lost, he's going to keep making noise for the next four years. I'm hoping the ongoing FBI investigations prevent another violent attack to install him as president in the meantime, but he's going to keep yelling for the next four years.

He has to be careful about ending his campaign officially, because that triggers all sorts of financial checks as the campaign needs to pay its debts, release lists of creditors, etc.. There are pretty strict rules about how much of a haircut creditors can take and how much the campaign can pay back to the candidate.

Tanglebones wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

The Democrats better be planning to get rid of the filibuster and go to the mat for democracy. If they caved in calling witnesses only to be thwarted in the Senate this will all have been for nothing.

Would witnesses have changed any of the 43 acquittal votes?

I thought Heather Cox Richardson had a good take on it:

Trump’s lawyers proceeded in the impeachment trial with the same rhetorical technique Trump and his supporters use: they flat-out lied. Clearly, they were not trying to get at the truth but were instead trying to create sound bites for right-wing media, the same way Trump and the rest of his cabal convinced supporters of the big lie that he had won, rather than lost, the 2020 election. In that case, they lied consistently in front of the media, but could not make anything stick in a courtroom, where there are penalties for not telling the truth.

In the first impeachment hearings, Trump supporters did the same thing, shouting and lying to create sound bites, and while the sworn testimony was crystal clear, their antics left many Americans convinced not of the facts but that then-President Trump was being persecuted by Democrats who were trying to protect Hunter Biden. So, while it’s reasonable to imagine that witnesses would illustrate Trump’s depravity, it seems entirely likely that, as Trump’s lawyers continued simply to lie and their lies got spread through right-wing media as truth, Americans would have learned the opposite of what they should have.

Instead, the issue of Trump’s guilt on January 6 will play out in a courtroom, where there are actual rules about telling the truth. Trump’s own lawyers suggested he should answer for his actions in a court of law, and in a fiery speech after the vote, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell set up the same idea. But even if that does not happen, the Capitol rioters will be in court, keeping in front of Americans both the horrific events of January 6 and their contention that they showed up to fight because their president asked them to.

The fine people who got arrested for trying to overthrow democracy are at least being honest about their motivations for attempting a coup. Most are saying they did it “because my president told me to.”

The GOP were never going to vote to convict. There are other reasons to go through with the impeachment hearings. One big reason is that it puts what happened in the January 6th event into an official government documented record. This will be in the school text books for as long as we have a democracy in the US.

RawkGWJ wrote:

There are other reasons to go through with the impeachment hearings.

Yes. Even though it's supremely disappointing & disheartening, it's more important that the Dems actually tried to hold him accountable. If puts the blame solely on the Reps who wouldn't vote to convict, no matter how clear the evidence was, and it lets the Dems be seen actually trying to stop him instead of sitting on their hands because they know they don't have the votes.

Given the past several years, getting 7 Republicans to vote to impeach is a victory by itself. If we're incredibly lucky (and I realize we almost certainly won't be), it'll make them more likely to side with Dems in the future since the MAGAhats already hate them for voting against their god-emperor.

qaraq wrote:

He has to be careful about ending his campaign officially, because that triggers all sorts of financial checks as the campaign needs to pay its debts, release lists of creditors, etc.. There are pretty strict rules about how much of a haircut creditors can take and how much the campaign can pay back to the candidate.

Trump's campaign was in the black by mid-November thanks to his aggressive post-election fund raising. The rest of the money--well over $100 million--was put into a leadership PAC he created. Leadership PACs have much looser restrictions on personal spending (it can be laundered through the Trump Organization) and requires much less reporting than a campaign.

And the Trump campaign sidestepped the vast majority of reporting requirements paying a shell vendor company for most expenditures. That shell company then paid the actual vendors. Unfortunately the FEC only requires that the first vendor to be reported so we'll probably never know who got paid how much.

I know the standard Trump hanger-on deal was a $15K a month gig in his campaign. Jr's girlfriend got one, as well as his former head of security and bagman, and others. Anyone who left the White House (or got bounced), but had dirt on him immediately got offered a well-paying gig at his campaign. It was basically hush money.

RawkGWJ wrote:

This will be in the school text books for as long as we have a democracy in the US.

Texas will ensure that school text books portray it as a patriotic uprising to fight against election fraud.

Farscry wrote:
RawkGWJ wrote:

This will be in the school text books for as long as we have a democracy in the US.

Texas will ensure that school text books portray it as a patriotic uprising to fight against election fraud.

They’ll try, but they’ll never get it to stick. Texas tried and failed to ban evolution, tried and failed to add creationism as an alternate theory to evolution. At best they might be able keep the January 6th insurrection out of text books for a few years, but Texas will never be able to rewrite the events of January 6 as anything other than a disgusting attempt to overthrow democracy.

The rest of the country was able to stop the religious crap. We already know the steps to take. The precedent has been strongly established by this point.

Mixolyde wrote:
Agent 86 wrote:

Geez guys it was just a goofy, little coup attempt, it’s not like somebody got a blowjob.

Am I the only person here that thinks that event was also a gross abuse of power and definitely impeachable? That kind of thing still happens all the time and joking about it is awful.

Edit: Not a personal attack on Agent, I just think we can all do better here.

I don't take it as such and I agree with you I was just trying to highlight the absurdity of the republican position on this matter. My actual opinion on this matter probably violates the code of conduct.

RawkGWJ wrote:
Farscry wrote:
RawkGWJ wrote:

This will be in the school text books for as long as we have a democracy in the US.

Texas will ensure that school text books portray it as a patriotic uprising to fight against election fraud.

They’ll try, but they’ll never get it to stick. Texas tried and failed to ban evolution, tried and failed to add creationism as an alternate theory to evolution. At best they might be able keep the January 6th insurrection out of text books for a few years, but Texas will never be able to rewrite the events of January 6 as anything other than a disgusting attempt to overthrow democracy.

The rest of the country was able to stop the religious crap. We already know the steps to take. The precedent has been strongly established by this point.

And I remember several times in my WV textbooks stating the Civil War was primarily about states' rights.

UpToIsomorphism wrote:
RawkGWJ wrote:
Farscry wrote:
RawkGWJ wrote:

This will be in the school text books for as long as we have a democracy in the US.

Texas will ensure that school text books portray it as a patriotic uprising to fight against election fraud.

They’ll try, but they’ll never get it to stick. Texas tried and failed to ban evolution, tried and failed to add creationism as an alternate theory to evolution. At best they might be able keep the January 6th insurrection out of text books for a few years, but Texas will never be able to rewrite the events of January 6 as anything other than a disgusting attempt to overthrow democracy.

The rest of the country was able to stop the religious crap. We already know the steps to take. The precedent has been strongly established by this point.

And I remember several times in my WV textbooks stating the Civil War was primarily about states' rights.

Given the proliferation of other sources (i.e. the internet) and newer printing practices, I wonder if the old text book buying power holds as much sway as it used to.

I mean, let's be realistic: most people I talk to tell me their high-school US history class ran out of time somewhere between Vietnam and Reagan, and it's going to be a while before 2020 gets covered. They're still trying to figure out how to cover 9/11.

Gremlin wrote:

I mean, let's be realistic: most people I talk to tell me their high-school US history class ran out of time somewhere between Vietnam and Reagan, and it's going to be a while before 2020 gets covered. They're still trying to figure out how to cover 9/11.

It was 20+ years ago (that means ~1999) and only Honors US History, but I think we only got past WW1.

UpToIsomorphism wrote:
RawkGWJ wrote:
Farscry wrote:
RawkGWJ wrote:

This will be in the school text books for as long as we have a democracy in the US.

Texas will ensure that school text books portray it as a patriotic uprising to fight against election fraud.

They’ll try, but they’ll never get it to stick. Texas tried and failed to ban evolution, tried and failed to add creationism as an alternate theory to evolution. At best they might be able keep the January 6th insurrection out of text books for a few years, but Texas will never be able to rewrite the events of January 6 as anything other than a disgusting attempt to overthrow democracy.

The rest of the country was able to stop the religious crap. We already know the steps to take. The precedent has been strongly established by this point.

And I remember several times in my WV textbooks stating the Civil War was primarily about states' rights.

You mean the War of Northern Aggression, right, Yankee?

(I don't know what the textbooks in the South teach, but the Southerners that I've met don't use Civil War verbally.)

Gremlin wrote:

I mean, let's be realistic: most people I talk to tell me their high-school US history class ran out of time somewhere between Vietnam and Reagan, and it's going to be a while before 2020 gets covered. They're still trying to figure out how to cover 9/11.

My history class stopped at the end of World War II. As far as my high school was concerned, the US pretty much single-handedly beat the Nazis, bombed the Japanese, and then lived happily ever after while the end credits rolled.

ClockworkHouse wrote:
Gremlin wrote:

I mean, let's be realistic: most people I talk to tell me their high-school US history class ran out of time somewhere between Vietnam and Reagan, and it's going to be a while before 2020 gets covered. They're still trying to figure out how to cover 9/11.

My history class stopped at the end of World War II. As far as my high school was concerned, the US pretty much single-handedly beat the Nazis, bombed the Japanese, and then lived happily ever after while the end credits rolled.

That explains why so many Boomers are stuck in the 50's.

ClockworkHouse wrote:
Gremlin wrote:

I mean, let's be realistic: most people I talk to tell me their high-school US history class ran out of time somewhere between Vietnam and Reagan, and it's going to be a while before 2020 gets covered. They're still trying to figure out how to cover 9/11.

My history class stopped at the end of World War II. As far as my high school was concerned, the US pretty much single-handedly beat the Nazis, bombed the Japanese, and then lived happily ever after while the end credits rolled.

Are you suggesting that that isn't exactly what happened?

Early millennial here, and while my public school education also didn't extend much past WWII, we got a pretty grim picture of the Japanese-American internment camps. There was a certain amount of rah-rah patriotism in my history classes, but it wasn't all we got.

Probably depends on the teacher as I had a (what I now know was) second-wave feminist teacher who was more than happy to drop the jingoism and focus on some angles that weren't white washed to the same extent as in the books.

Counter that with my Civil War class in high school that was taught by someone I now see as likely to have been a "States rights" voter.

ClockworkHouse wrote:
Gremlin wrote:

I mean, let's be realistic: most people I talk to tell me their high-school US history class ran out of time somewhere between Vietnam and Reagan, and it's going to be a while before 2020 gets covered. They're still trying to figure out how to cover 9/11.

My history class stopped at the end of World War II. As far as my high school was concerned, the US pretty much single-handedly beat the Nazis, bombed the Japanese, and then lived happily ever after while the end credits rolled.

That's pretty much what every westerner thought after the Berlin Wall fell. Democracy and peace were inevitable, history was over, everything will sort itself out, and we don't have to do anything to defend it anymore.
Man we were dumb.

David Hasselhoff lied to us through song!

Y’all see the Trump statement on McConnell? I really don’t see how the the Republican party avoids disaster with this situation. A house divided, and all.

Blind_Evil wrote:

Y’all see the Trump statement on McConnell? I really don’t see how the the Republican party avoids disaster with this situation. A house divided, and all.

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