[Discussion] Impeachment, Legacy, and Discussion of Individual 45

Though noted as discussion, news, debate, and all things related to events that occurred during the Tr*mp administration can go here. The scope of this thread is specific to the former administration and it's hangers-on in the aftermath of the shift in power for the United States and impacted areas worldwide.

On class.

Am sure that most Marxists would point out that the unrest our society is currently experiencing can be traced to problems with Capitalism. The "successful" white folks profiled in that article sound like desperate graspers who have whole heartedly bought in to the American myth of success at life = moneymoneymoney. Start a business to become the next mogul because what truly ails you in our society is a lack of cash to dominate others. Trump is the epitome of this.

There is very, very little room in the American psyche for anything other than worship of money (maybe there's some room for worship of a god, but even that is tainted by the rich preacher type that has its unique American spin). Money chasing has hollowed out the middle class (see: Capital, Bain) so what's left to fill the void? Conspiracies and good ol latent American (human?) hatred for the Other.

If our society was more just, we spread the wealth better and we embraced an idea of success that included values other than greed (say, solidarity, treating others kindly, helping less fortunate, equity), maybe we could get out of this greed doom spiral.

I dunno. Been reading lots of Marxist literature lately!

Also want to point out that the 1/6 traitors weren't a monolith. I don't think only one lens can be used to explain all of them. They ranged from poor folks in Carhart stuff with Confederate flags to Karens who took NetJets to DC. I feel like there's a Venn diagram with about 6 circles of "types" and lots of overlap amongst the circles.

Yeah. No "class solidarity" with f*cking fascists.

Agreed. You can't have a cohesive group if some of the members are against bonding at all.

That said, if we did work toward more solidarity amongst classes, would that forestall people joining sh*tty groups to get their sense of belonging or, alternatively, bond the 80-90% of the rest of society enough that these jokers never get a chance to mobilize? I feel like a big part of what gives these folks oxygen is that the alternatives are fractured?

The "Left" consists of AOC/Bernie...and also Joe Manchin who will burn the world to cinders for a f*cking coal job and f*cking Larry Summers who is crying that tHe EcOnOmY is healthy because the stock market is high so we need to not give people money during a pandemic or f*cking shoot the healthcare industrial complex in the face.

People are faced with a choice: unfettered GREED or a roll of the dice to see if your life turns out ok. Black and poor? Too bad. White and poor? Too bad. Any combination + rich? Winning! Conservatives dress this up in all kinds of junk (values, personal responsibility, tough love, entrepreneurialism, deity, sneaky --and not so sneaky-- appeals to hate) but it all comes down to the idea that some people ought to rule over others. The Left is SUPPOSED to be about the exact opposite of that; we are all equal, regardless of power. And we're failing at making that belief real.

Ok. I'm getting way outside the topic here. Apologies!

Top_Shelf wrote:

Also want to point out that the 1/6 traitors weren't a monolith. I don't think only one lens can be used to explain all of them. They ranged from poor folks in Carhart stuff with Confederate flags to Karens who took NetJets to DC.

Yeah, no. ACTUAL "poor folks" can't take a day off and travel hundreds of miles to another state with all the food, lodging, and equipment that requires. Oh, you can? You're not poor.

Top_Shelf wrote:

That said, if we did work toward more solidarity amongst classes, would that forestall people joining sh*tty groups to get their sense of belonging or, alternatively, bond the 80-90% of the rest of society enough that these jokers never get a chance to mobilize? I feel like a big part of what gives these folks oxygen is that the alternatives are fractured?

No. That's a fever dream of the Left, and it's insidious since it sounds so reasonable. Jobs + healthcare + education + opportunity = no fascism, right? But it never quite works out that way, so the goalposts have to be moved. That said, I'm all for providing all of the things, including UBI, but we have to understand that white supremacy will always rear its head and must be stamped out, not explained away.

Top_Shelf wrote:

The "Left" consists of AOC/Bernie...and also Joe Manchin who will burn the world to cinders for a f*cking coal job and f*cking Larry Summers who is crying that tHe EcOnOmY is healthy because the stock market is high so we need to not give people money during a pandemic or f*cking shoot the healthcare industrial complex in the face.

Neither Manchin nor Summers would react well to being folded in with the Left.

Top_Shelf wrote:

People are faced with a choice: unfettered GREED or a roll of the dice to see if your life turns out ok. Black and poor? Too bad. White and poor? Too bad.

These are not the same.

Did I miss something, or was the entirety of the Trump team's argument today—which, since they've rested, will be the entirety of their argument period—pretty much, "I know you are, but what am I?"

ClockworkHouse wrote:

Did I miss something, or was the entirety of the Trump team's argument today—which, since they've rested, will be the entirety of their argument period—pretty much, "I know you are, but what am I?"

I think it was closer to "I said Joe MANTEGNA!"

If you don't EXPLICITLY say something then you did not try to make it happen.

Even if he didn't incite it, the delay in sending help is unconscionable.

If he'd read "The Pet Goat" to children during the attack while other people responded effectively it would be one thing. Watching the attack unfolding on the news and preventing other people from intervening is something else.

Even with details like these, Trump is still going to get acquitted. It's disgusting.

Washington (CNN)In an expletive-laced phone call with House Republican leader Kevin McCarthy while the Capitol was under attack, then-President Donald Trump said the rioters cared more about the election results than McCarthy did.

"Well, Kevin, I guess these people are more upset about the election than you are," Trump said, according to lawmakers who were briefed on the call afterward by McCarthy.
McCarthy insisted that the rioters were Trump's supporters and begged Trump to call them off.

Trump's comment set off what Republican lawmakers familiar with the call described as a shouting match between the two men. A furious McCarthy told the President the rioters were breaking into his office through the windows, and asked Trump, "Who the f--k do you think you are talking to?" according to a Republican lawmaker familiar with the call.

Trump knew exactly who he was talking to. A coward who wouldn't dream of voting to impeach him.

Stengah wrote:

Trump knew exactly who he was talking to. A coward who wouldn't dream of voting to impeach him.

Yeah, when you're the leader of an international crime-syndicate posing as a government, everyone you talk to is a goon or a victim.

Still...

A furious McCarthy told the President the rioters were breaking into his office through the windows, and asked Trump, "Who the f--k do you think you are talking to?"

Still, to go Moe Green on the Don, guy’s got a big pair of Scaramuchis.

Shocking absolutely no one. McConnell has stated he will vote to acquit Trump

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell has told GOP colleagues in a letter that he will vote to acquit Donald Trump in the former president's impeachment trial, according to sources familiar with the communication.

The Senate is voting on whether to call witnesses.

They're going to do it.

The most epic finale to the most reality TV presidency is the shaman on the stand in the series finale.

Could the visuals be enough to get any Rs to flip? I say odds of conviction just went up, albeit slightly. Betting houses haven't incorporated this new info yet.

Double post. Oops

It’s 100% a done deal now. McConnell telling colleagues he’ll vote to acquit means odds of conviction are nil. No matter how witness testimony goes, if he changes his mind now he looks weak and indecisive. No Republican that’s on the fence will vote to convict without the limited umbrella of protection a McConnell guilty vote would have provided.

At this point I hope they reap what they sow and Trump half-heartedly runs in 2024, sabotaging Republican chances by causing a split that makes Bernie progressives vs. establishment Dems look like nothing.

Too bad Trump will probably be too old and lazy by then. He’ll be satisfied to just hand pick a successor who’ll squeak out a narrow victory because Dem voters and independents will be complacent and disillusioned with all the perceived failures of the Biden admin.

I think at this point the value of calling witnesses is to get everything on record (and uncover the people who have been covering stuff up). The standard procedure is to form a committee to hear depositions, so it doesn't really interfere with anything else, and I'd be perfectly happy if they drag this out for months.

No witnesses, apparently.

Impeachment as a power exists on paper, but it functionally doesn’t exist in practice.

The founders did not anticipate party over country.

Guess they thought sworn oaths to the constitution were enough. Seem pretty naive now.

Originally senators were elected by state legislatures. The Seventeenth Amendment changed the way the senate works, but not the way impeachment works.

Of course the way things are, I would expect an even more partisan senate if senators were still chosen by state legislatures.

Wow, just wow!
Republicans now deserve to be out of power for so long that the party with have long destroyed itself by then.
If there are some sane Republicans left, their only option is to run as an independent if they don't want to belong to the party of Trump.

Also, next time, since we know most assuredly there will be a next time now, the cops or national guard had better shoot a helluva lot more when our capitol is under attack.

fangblackbone wrote:

Wow, just wow!
Republicans now deserve to be out of power for so long that the party with have long destroyed itself by then.
If there are some sane Republicans left, their only option is to run as an independent if they don't want to belong to the party of Trump.

Reasonable people keep saying "the GOP will pay" or "history won't be kind" but that fails to actually stop the GOP at all. They've learned their lesson: next time, go all the way. They've paid nothing so far.

Natus wrote:

Reasonable people keep saying "the GOP will pay" or "history won't be kind" but that fails to actually stop the GOP at all. They've learned their lesson: next time, go all the way. They've paid nothing so far.

100% correct.

Well, that ended pretty much exactly as I expected.

The results are in. Turns out he's 100% that Mitch.

Geez guys it was just a goofy, little coup attempt, it’s not like somebody got a blowjob.

The Democrats better be planning to get rid of the filibuster and go to the mat for democracy. If they caved in calling witnesses only to be thwarted in the Senate this will all have been for nothing.

Not unexpected but still depressing. It won't make things better for the country.

And this stupid sh*t

After Trump was acquitted, McConnell laid out a clear message: The ex-President can't be the future of the Republican Party

"Even after acquittal, GOP senators and Democratic managers hope rebuke of Trump has lasting impact"

WTF, are they really that stupid? I mean obviously they are but the staggering stupidity just flabbergasts me.

After getting away with murder judge says "that guy should really feel bad about being rebuked"

Did they not say that same sh*t last year when they impeached him? "he will learn his lesson"....so he decided to incite a mob to kill the members of congress.

It is exactly, eerily, depressingly like Germany and the rise of the Nazis. After failing one time Hitler just tired again and that time he succeeded.

But even seeing that what can we do, what can I do? Millions of people will gladly support his dictatorship, they will join the party, they will be happy to destroy democracy for their fascists view of "American"