2020/21 Soccer Thread: Messxit?

Prederick wrote:

This has been rightly, loudly damned in most spaces so far, but I'm guessing these clubs are wagering that there are enough fans, especially internationally, who won't give a crap about any of the "local club" stuff and will watch a super league.

I think for the likes of Liverpool and Manchester United, you might be surprised. I won’t support Liverpool in a super league, and from the comments in the various Liverpool fan groups and forums, I am far from alone.

There is still a very long way to go before this happens. The fan backlash from all sides, UEFA / FIFA being willing to hand the majority of power to the big clubs, European government intervention. I fee a lot of it is just the clubs now forcing the discussion rather than it be continual background murmuring. We shall see.

Clubs now announcing they're "founding members" of the SuperCartel. I thought this was just going to end up a gambit to get a bigger piece of the Champions League money.

Arsenal were the first I saw.

https://twitter.com/Arsenal/status/1...

We are one of 12 Founding Clubs of the European Super League

https://www.arsenal.com/news/europea...

Roke wrote:

Clubs now announcing they're "founding members" of the SuperCartel. I thought this was just going to end up a gambit to get a bigger piece of the Champions League money.

Arsenal were the first I saw.

https://twitter.com/Arsenal/status/1...

We are one of 12 Founding Clubs of the European Super League

https://www.arsenal.com/news/europea...

They'll push this as hard as they can to get whatever it is they can get out of UEFA in terms of cash from the CL etc, if this doesn't go ahead. This is their last resort now, they'll have to play it out to a conclusion. They want this as a replacement for the CL, it'll remain to be seen if they get that wish and keep playing in their domestic competitions. I suspect not. By wanting it to start in August then they are absolutely forcing this as hard as they can. 12 teams founding, 5 more to join, 5 in via some sort of qualifying mechanism. In the case of the UK clubs it will also be about breaking the power of the Premier League.

Clearly they can't or won't be allowed to play in any of their domestic competitions. Ultimately for the UK clubs that will lose them a lot of fans if it does go ahead, and that ultimately might be the deal breaker there. As stated, I have no interest seeing Liverpool play the same 12 teams 3 times a season and nothing else. No thank you. Believe me, I'm far from in the minority there.

As an aside - Leicester City played Southampton this afternoon in the FA cup semi-final at Wembley. While the match wasn't great, it was played in front of an audience of about 4000 fans. I think they were just random local people rather than actual fans (although a few were there), but what a pleasure it was to watch a game without that awful fake crowd noise playing in the background.

Those statements, man.

They're really gonna try it.

Dock them all points and fines. Immediately.

@JamesHorncastle wrote:

Juventus statement says the founding clubs will continue playing in all the respective domestic competitions and that the founding clubs wish to implement the Super League project in agreement with FIFA and UEFA

I cannot believe I am rooting for FIFA and UEFA here, but God I hope they tell them to f*ck off.

That said, wave enough cash under FIFA's nose, they'll do anything.

EDIT:

And Tancredi Palmeri says all 12 teams have left the ECA and are aiming to start in August 2021.

Sorbicol wrote:

As an aside - Leicester City played Southampton this afternoon in the FA cup semi-final at Wembley. While the match wasn't great, it was played in front of an audience of about 4000 fans. I think they were just random local people rather than actual fans (although a few were there), but what a pleasure it was to watch a game without that awful fake crowd noise playing in the background.

The Premier League's fake crowd noise is better than most I've seen (MLB has been dreadful) but actual crowd's reacting to what's going on on the pitch will be nice when things get back to normal.

In the bright side of SuperLeague stuff... could it put Leicester in the driver's seat to win another unlikely title? 1-point up on West Ham with a match in hand for the non-treasonous part of the Premier League table.

Prederick wrote:

That said, wave enough cash under FIFA's nose, they'll do anything.

IMAGE(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EzSnmrDVkAomAdy?format=jpg&name=medium)

Must've promised them all new yachts.

More:

“Twelve of Europe’s leading football clubs have today come together to announce they have agreed to establish a new mid-week competition, the Super League, governed by its founding clubs,” it read.

“AC Milan, Arsenal FC, Atlético de Madrid, Chelsea FC, FC Barcelona, FC Internazionale Milano, Juventus FC, Liverpool FC, Manchester City, Manchester United, Real Madrid CF and Tottenham Hotspur have all joined as founding clubs. It is anticipated that a further three clubs will join ahead of the inaugural season, which is intended to commence as soon as practicable.”

The statement added: “Going forward, the founding clubs look forward to holding discussions with Uefa and Fifa to work together in partnership to deliver the best outcomes for the new League and for football as a whole. The formation of the Super League comes at a time when the global pandemic has accelerated the instability in the existing European football economic model. Further, for a number of years, the founding clubs have had the objective of improving the quality and intensity of existing European competitions throughout each season, and of creating a format for top clubs and players to compete on a regular basis.”

According to the ESL, the new format will see midweek fixtures with all participating clubs continuing to compete in their respective national leagues, “preserving the traditional domestic match calendar which remains at the heart of the club game”.

“An August start with clubs participating in two groups of 10, playing home and away fixtures, with the top three in each group automatically qualifying for the quarter-finals. Teams finishing fourth and fifth will then compete in a two-legged play-off for the remaining quarter-final positions. A two-leg knockout format will be used to reach the final at the end of May, which will be staged as a single fixture at a neutral venue. As soon as practicable after the start of the men’s competition, a corresponding women’s league will also be launched, helping to advance and develop the women’s game.”

It seems like anybody who isn't a, I assume, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Juventus, Manchester United (, & Two More Clubs (Liverpool? Bayern and PSG if they sign up?) are signing up to be cannon fodder in terms of revenue distribution, if this is true.

https://twitter.com/james_corbett/st...

I was sent a copy of the so-called Super League document earlier today and have spent the afternoon doing some number crunching on it.

A few key takeaways

(1/)
10:19 AM · Jan 22, 2021·Twitter Web App

The plan envisages one off payments of up to €350 million to the fifteen founder members, but only six clubs would receive the full amount with five of the initial members receiving just €100 or €112.5 million.

(3/)

The "qualifier" teams get really screwed but it seems to me the likes of Spurs and Arsenal are signing up for more uneven league revenue distribution compared to their rivals domestically than they get right now from the Premier League and UEFA, when they're in the Champions League.

Well Spurs haven't won anything forever and the way Arsenal are trending they might never qualify for the CL anyways for the foreseeable future. Unless they back door via the Europa this year which I doubt cause they don't win Euro trophies.

So from a money stand point they are probably just happy to be involved.

From a competition stand point they will both get smashed.

Nothing to see here.

<_<

>_>

Uh, you mean the thing we're talking about?

Prederick wrote:

Uh, you mean the thing we're talking about? ;)

Dunno what you are talking about. Just popping in to say hi.

Wembley wrote:
Prederick wrote:

Uh, you mean the thing we're talking about? ;)

Dunno what you are talking about. Just popping in to say hi. ;-)

ManU, Juve, AC Milan, Inter step down from the ECA, Ed Woodward leaves UEFA.

Well, this certainly is going to be a moment in football history.

It really is a philosophical question about whether football is just a business and clubs are assets, or if it is something else.

EDIT: And Spurs just sacked Mourinho! Guess we don't need this video as much:

Spurs have fired Jose Mourhino They are clearly going all in.

Edit: Damn you Prederick!

As a sidenote, as an American, I apologize for the avaricious suits we've sent over to buy your clubs and try to turn football in England into the NFL.

EDIT: My fear about it's inevitability is that, the total population of the nations of the clubs that are in on this is short of 200M.

That's not even comparable to the U.S./China/India combined, nations where fans probably aren't going to care 1/2 as much about poor old Burnley getting screwed over and would be more okay with watching Juve play Real Madrid 20 times a year.

My fear is they've looked at the numbers and figured out that no matter how much they lose domestically, they will easily make it up, if not outright exceed it internationally.

Prederick wrote:

As a sidenote, as an American, I apologize for the avaricious suits we've sent over to buy your clubs and try to turn football in England into the NFL.

EDIT: My fear about it's inevitability is that, the total population of the nations of the clubs that are in on this is short of 200M.

That's not even comparable to the U.S./China/India combined, nations where fans probably aren't going to care 1/2 as much about poor old Burnley getting screwed over and would be more okay with watching Juve play Real Madrid 20 times a year.

My fear is they've looked at the numbers and figured out that no matter how much they lose domestically, they will easily make it up, if not outright exceed it internationally.

Interesting take Pred but I don't understand why some people in this argument always circle back to player wages as the culprit. Regardless of the sport.

No one has to pay a player more than what he is worth in the sport they play. I hate this argument because it's essentially absolving bad management and it leads to attempts of salary caps which are terrible. Which if these clubs get their way would be next. Tip the scales as much as they can revenue wise then once they are their own bosses on all the rules cap the expense side also. Voila. Lazy business 101.

Anyways this is a farce which might actually work because the club's are fighting against UEFA/FIFA who are also a joke.

If it does fall apart in grand fashion I hope the English FA go as far as docking the clubs that signed on points next year. f*cking embarrassing. Also no surprise that apparently DAZN is involved. Go figure a self interested entity on the other side is also the one pushing this. Between them and the American owners they probably actually think this is a great evolution and what people want.

Is it strange that my dislike of the Superleague, or the abomination that is the newly agreed Champions League format, is rooted more in its effect on Football Manager than the actual sport?

Taking a smaller club up the pyramid and into Europe is one of the great joys of FM. I had a blast last year taking Queen's Park from the Scottish 4th division to losing in the Champions League final.

Making competitions less merit-based closes that mode of play off a bit.

But I guess my club football interest has been rooted in FM from the beginning when I confused Cacau and Kaka and called James or Craig Beattie my "New Alan Shearer " because they stepped into thst role in my first ever save.

Is banning players from international stuff actually a deterrent?

If the players push back they might actually start asking for more of that UEFA/FIFA money.

Been busy to mention it but for example Aubameyang recently contracted Malaria on international duty. I'm sure there are players later on in their careers who would love a convenient excuse to not dress up for their FAs.

Dreams can't be buy.

Bruno said it all. Already trademarked.

Here's a preview of the new league's theme song.

Klopp hung out to dry by FSG by the looks of things. Not unsurprising though

"I'm 53. Since I've been in professional football, the Champions League has been there. My aim was always to coach a team there. I have no issues with the Champions League.

"I like the competitive aspect of football. I like that West Ham might play in the Champions League. I don't want them to because we want to but I like they have the chance. What can I say? It's not easy.

"What I want to say as well, I've heard a few things but what I really don't like, Liverpool football club is much more than some decisions. The most important part of football are the supporters and the team. We have to make sure nothing gets between that. I've heard there are banners but the players didn't do anything wrong. We have to all stick together. We can show nobody has to walk alone in these moments. There are things to sort but nothing to do with the football or the relationship between the supporters and the team.

"In tough times you have to show you stick together. It doesn't mean you have to agree with everything but again the boys did nothing wrong. I want to make sure everyone knows that.

"I understand it. I am in a different position. I don't have all informations. I don't know exactly why the 12 clubs did it. I know some things will change with football in the future. Some things have to change in football that is for sure.

"Usually you have to prepare these kinds of things, it takes time."

slazev wrote:

Dreams can't be buy.

Bruno said it all. Already trademarked.

Here's a preview of the new league's theme song.

I would have preferred "Money" as performed by the Beatles.

This piece from The Ringer is worth reading if only for this line:

There are 475,000,000 European soccer clubs. Many, if not most, fans largely pay attention to around 16 of the most successful of these clubs, and somehow also Tottenham Hotspur.

Punch Spurs all you like, but they have been top 6 for the last decade.

How badly must Mourinho have lost the locker room to get canned a week before a cup final though?

I saw a report that he had, quite genuinely, lost it. Like lost-lost.

IMAGE(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/800/cpsprodpb/8E13/production/_118117363_48e6e37a-9a02-44af-a2b4-f1db1e3ea5a4.jpg)

EDIT: This is f*cking cartoonish.

slazev wrote:

Punch Spurs all you like

IMAGE(https://i.imgur.com/w2E0z73.png)

...

Ipswich Town 1962.

f*cking bananas.

I actually hope it goes all nuclear now and the American owners are essentially stuck watching the values plummet. Not like they actually paid for the club's in the first place.

Crazy to think the Glazers came in 2005? Makes me feel really really old.

Roke wrote:

Is it strange that my dislike of the Superleague, or the abomination that is the newly agreed Champions League format, is rooted more in its effect on Football Manager than the actual sport?

Taking a smaller club up the pyramid and into Europe is one of the great joys of FM. I had a blast last year taking Queen's Park from the Scottish 4th division to losing in the Champions League final.

Making competitions less merit-based closes that mode of play off a bit.

But I guess my club football interest has been rooted in FM from the beginning when I confused Cacau and Kaka and called James or Craig Beattie my "New Alan Shearer " because they stepped into thst role in my first ever save.

As a sidenote, completely agreed. One of my friends loves FM because he loves taking some side from Hungary or Belgium and trying to win the CL with them. Like, I'm genuinely less interested in FM if this happens.

Rumoredly Disney is in the bidding for Super League rights, and the Saudis are getting involved. This really is a nuclear war now, because the owners must feel they have enough money behind them to take this all the way to the mattresses.

EDIT: Was watching AFTV, and Robbie made a great point about one of the things coming down the pike, you will absolutely see the ESL play the North London Derby at the LA Rams stadium (which Kroenke owns), or the Manchester Derby at Raymond James stadium. A lock.

I'd bet $20 that you'll see ManU, Juve and Barca play more games in China, Qatar and Saudi Arabia than in their own hometowns.

Also, apprently the website needs some security work.

The Guardian has uncovered an unpublished European Super League document in the hidden code of its new website which seeks to justify the controversial breakaway by saying it will give fans “what they want”.

In comments that will raise eyebrows, it also claims the breakaway will offer “a sustainable and competitive environment for the whole football pyramid” – by providing more than three times the level of solidarity payments to smaller clubs than currently exist. It also reveals that the clubs are considering intriguing new ideas, including “technology-enhanced rule implementation” that are not backed by the authorities, although it does not go into details. But it seems to drastically underestimate the public criticism of the proposals.

“It will also evoke strong passions both for and against,” it says, although there has been little sign of the former. “We welcome this debate as sport is all about passion and differences of opinion are an essential part of being a fan. But in the end, we are confident that when fans are welcomed back into the stadiums and the first Super League matches are played, fans will enjoy the greatest competition club football has ever seen.”

That such a document was so easily discovered by someone with little specialist knowledge of coding will be embarrassing to the European Super League. However, its underlying message is that the 12 clubs – including six from the Premier League – had no choice but to act because of the financial costs they were facing.

Citing Covid, it warns that the accumulated losses of top-level clubs exceed €5bn (£4.3bn). “The value of live media rights is stagnating or declining as some of our competitions fail to meet the needs of fans and new generations seek entertainment in ways which didn’t exist 10 years ago,” it says.

jowner wrote:

f*cking bananas.

I actually hope it goes all nuclear now and the American owners are essentially stuck watching the values plummet. Not like they actually paid for the club's in the first place.

Crazy to think the Glazers came in 2005? Makes me feel really really old.

The prices will only plummet if the courts give UEFA & all the individual FAs the power to strike the founding members out of the domestic leagues, and somehow prevent the formation of the super league. I'm pretty sure they'll prevent one, but almost certainly not both. Even then the leagues would have to eject the major teams from their leagues, which given the revenue they bring is extremely unlikely, like it or not. The TV revenue deals would fly out of the window if they excluded those clubs, and the owners know it.

The stock price of the Italian clubs all jumped significantly after the announcement - from a commercial perspective, this is really a win-win situation for the owners & they will get what they want - more money and more influence on who gets that money regardless of whether they stay in the current league structures or the Super League. Even if they lose all their domestic fans should they be relegated/ ejected from their national leagues, then the super league will just go full franchise and tour around the far / middle east and the US where all the money and "new fans" are. The domestic fans will just have accept losing their clubs and (most likely) start new clubs from scratch.

The only way the status quo will remain is if there is significant, collective and co-ordinated political intervention across all the European countries involved. I just don't see that happening with the vested interests involved. Despite all the noise at the moment from the UK government, I would be very surprised if that takes any serious format. It's one thing pissing off billionaire American businessmen, it's something else to piss off the Saudi Arabian state. Real and Barcelona have been allowed to call the shots in La Liga for decades, the Red Bull franchise in Germany are slowly but surely eroding the fan ownership model, and decades of corruption in the Italian clubs leaves them all weak and vulnerable.

Ultimately this mess is down to money, and greed, and (in the case of Real and Barcelona) desperation to keep the clubs afloat. They are both steeped in unsustainable debt. That greed isn't just from the owners though, UEFAs continued milking of a sport they only see as a money generating exercise is also front and centre amongst the reasons why this is all happening.

How it shakes down remains to be seen. Unfortunately, all of that will be happening in the legal arena, not a sporting one.

The main obstacle i see right now is there are no German or French clubs on board, as of yet. Is it really a European Super League if it doesn't have clubs from the two richest nations in Europe?

In a perfect world this would collapse spectacularly, weakening the power of the superclubs and domestic leagues and UEFA could then implement more equitable distributions of league revenue (So, say, Ajax getting to the Champions League Final gets more money than an English çlub which does not).

But that's a pipe dream, especially with UEFA approving that dreadful new Champions League format today.