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So what is the male equivalent of a "Karen" or is this yet another to add to the ever-growing list of negative terms we only use to describe women?

bekkilyn wrote:

So what is the male equivalent of a "Karen" or is this yet another to add to the ever-growing list of negative terms we only use to describe women?

Chad is a common one.

lunchbox12682 wrote:
bekkilyn wrote:

So what is the male equivalent of a "Karen" or is this yet another to add to the ever-growing list of negative terms we only use to describe women?

Chad is a common one.

Nah. Chad is an term used in incel cirlces to denote a guy who has all the sex - the female version of Chad would be Stacy.

Karen is entirely different.

Donald

Hey everyone,

Got my test results back and it was negative. GF also negative... starting to think her roommate had a false positive

Did you know that there are women trying to grow out their hair now because they are afraid of being called a "Karen"? It's getting to the point where if any woman speaks up and complains about something, she's now called a "Karen". Are women and girls who are called "Karen" supposed to change their names now to avoid being harassed and mocked? Seems to me it's a one-word way of shutting someone up (particularly a woman) and dismissing whatever they may have to say.

bekkilyn wrote:

Did you know that there are women trying to grow out their hair now because they are afraid of being called a "Karen"? It's getting to the point where if any woman speaks up and complains about something, she's now called a "Karen". Are women and girls who are called "Karen" supposed to change their names now to avoid being harassed and mocked? Seems to me it's a one-word way of shutting someone up (particularly a woman) and dismissing whatever they may have to say.

It can certainly be used that way. Of course people of whatever gender and whatever name acting has we have seen videos of those people should be mocked in my opinion so what is an appropriate way to do that?

farley3k wrote:
bekkilyn wrote:

Did you know that there are women trying to grow out their hair now because they are afraid of being called a "Karen"? It's getting to the point where if any woman speaks up and complains about something, she's now called a "Karen". Are women and girls who are called "Karen" supposed to change their names now to avoid being harassed and mocked? Seems to me it's a one-word way of shutting someone up (particularly a woman) and dismissing whatever they may have to say.

It can certainly be used that way. Of course people of whatever gender and whatever name acting has we have seen videos of those people should be mocked in my opinion so what is an appropriate way to do that?

The thing is, it's not just being used against "people" (as a neutral term) but specifically targeting women.

Okay Karen -- The Casual Misogyny of Karen Memes

I'm glad Bekkilyn brought this up. How about the old chestnuts JERK, ASSHOLE or any variety of JACKASS or IDIOT? My middle name is Karen, and I've always liked my name until recently. That video made my stomach turn and I wanted to punch that asshole jerk in the face, make her pay for the food she destroyed and do whatever number of community service hours feeding the homeless, ON HER DIME.

While punching her in the face isn't an option I would actually go with, all the other things I mentioned should be done. Calling her "A Karen" sure doesn't make me feel better.

Edited to add punctuation. I must be very hard on keyboards. First my comma key died, and now on this new keyboard from my GWJ Secret Santa, the period key is failing.

So what is the male equivalent of a "Karen" or is this yet another to add to the ever-growing list of negative terms we only use to describe women?

My wife had a beef with that too. She looked it up and apparently it is Ian.
Of course nobody uses it so it is ANOTHER way to ridicule women specifically

Also, great news FiveIron!

Bekkilyn wrote:

It's getting to the point where if any woman speaks up and complains about something, she's now called a "Karen".

I disagree. The examples I see are of White women who are *unreasonably* asking people of color doing legitimate things - entering their buildings, having picnics in parks, trying to leave a shopping center, walking dogs, even just living in their own houses - to stop, go away, stay there while they call the police, whatever they think will get that person to stop doing what White people can do without hassle. Yes, it's been extended to people who won't wear masks when required. But I don't see White women just being approached and harrassed because they have a complaint just like everyone else. You don't see Karen videos of someone upset at a store return window because the blender they bought for their daughter's wedding was broken.

It has *not* gotten to that point because that's not the point of the Karen meme. That's not how it's perceived. I know a few of my Republican friends, the same ones that insist any discussion of race is "playing the race card", they fear that now White women are the target just because it's part of "the whole race thing the media is putting out". But they are the same ones who can't see color and wish Black Lives Matter would be less seen and less heard and maybe if they want change they can talk to their Congressman or elect a new one... As I've said before, when someone's been on the top all their lives, equality looks like oppression.

One of my wife's co-workers, who is Black, was followed to a home medical visit (she's a nurse I think) by a White woman who proceeded to block her car into the clients driveway, screaming racist crap at her and threatening her, in a nearby county that is strongly Republican. She was just trying to do her job and this woman decided that she was "not in her place" and that she had to be threatened to stop her... This is the real problem. She's worked that area before, but only now are the racists and bigots coming out of the woodwork. This is an example of the behavior that is called out by the Karen meme.

Frankly, if we as White people can't take a little visible friction after crushing and abrading those of color for centuries, then we really are fragile. People of color have lived with far worse for far longer. We need to call these things out and not bury them, because we have been ignoring them for far too long. Karens are the problem; the fear that they are actually the persecuted ones is a form of gaslighting. Liberals and minorities are not just pulling this stuff out of their ass. This is real, and just because it's visible now in all its ridiculousness, does not mean it's unfair. Rather the opposite.

As a White person, I grew up listening to Whites disparage every "stereotypically Black" name they could wrap their lips around. I'm supposed to freak out because one White name becomes a label? Please...

Maybe Nerak would be better...
IMAGE(https://thekingdominsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/watcher-in-the-woods-Ellie-narek.png)

I do think the Karen meme is punching up given the context it comes from, but if it feels like that context has blurred too much, it's not high on my list of "things to preserve because I think they should be" and have no issue dropping it.

Robear, you do realize that you will NEVER be called a "Karen" no matter your behavior. Only women.

Do what you want Robear, I'll just change my middle name to Fiona.

Edit: link for context.

Robear wrote:

The examples I see are of White women who are *unreasonably* asking people of color doing legitimate things - entering their buildings, having picnics in parks, trying to leave a shopping center, walking dogs, even just living in their own houses - to stop, go away, stay there while they call the police, whatever they think will get that person to stop doing what White people can do without hassle.

This is what it was when it started.

Chairman_Mao wrote:

I do think the Karen meme is punching up given the context it comes from, but if it feels like that context has blurred too much,

This is where it is now.

Virality strips things like this of their meaning, or at least blurs is to the point of uselessness.

I have a small modicum of sympathy for the progressive, woke Karens of the world, but as someone who's used a synonym for "toilet" and "sex worker's clientele" as his first name for decades, those Karens will have to accept that they don't get to define the baggage that their culture staples to their name.

I will stand by my preference to call these particular women (and any men who do this same bullsh*t) what they really are, which is self-entitled assholes and selfish uncaring jerks, and in general, jackasses. SOme are actually criminals, like the asshole in the video that destroyed food in a punkass tantrum. This is the same advice I've given family members who use racial slurs in anger, or even the word "Female Doggo" in anger.

If you think it somehow furthers the agenda to keep calling them "Karens", so be it. Free country and all. I don't have to like it any more than I like any other kind of targeted slur. It's lazy and wong-headed in my opinion, even if my name weren't Karen.

Robear wrote:

As a White person, I grew up listening to Whites disparage every "stereotypically Black" name they could wrap their lips around. I'm supposed to freak out because one White name becomes a label? Please...

Yes, actually.

I actually brought this up with Teresa before this story broke. I told her that the use of Karen had gotten ugly, and that it felt more sexist all time. Heck, one of the latest Karen videos also had a guy. He got no abuse, but the woman got trashed.

The fact is, no one even remembered the name for guys.

What I’ve seen is that the Karen crap is soon followed by critiques of white women, that white women are the problem. It’s a pattern I’m noticing more and more. And I’m less and less persuaded by the excuses for it.

And yeah, using the exact same name calling you identify as toxic as an excuse to use it against white women doesn’t exactly locate the high moral ground. My wife, as a lawyer, is well aware of all the ways society tells women they are better off keeping their mouths shut. This comes off as that.

I think videos of toxic behavior should come out. But I’ve gotten progressively uncomfortable with the names, and it’s why I brought it up with Teresa. And seeing a woman here also express frustration, and to see her concern dismissed so easily is even worse. If Bekki complains enough, we can even call her Karen, right?

So what name should be used?

It's not the particular name that is bugging people. No one is attacked because their name is Karen, that I can see. It's the fact that White women (and Kens, their White male counterpart) are finally being called out for their occasionally egregious behavior that's bothering people. The label is arbitrary. The meaning is deep. But it can be disregarded by many people because the label is "unfair". That way, they hope, things will go back to what they were, when "those people" didn't dare criticize "us". Then they won't have to think about the problems anymore.

Also, unless I'm vastly misinformed, the name came from people of color. Is this another thing we get to use to hold them back? Really? Their culture is theirs, not ours to criticize in this way. That's what we've always done. Time to stop and deal with this ourselves, adapt to it, however offensive, because that's what we required from them for centuries, along with far, far worse.

Jayhawker wrote:

If Bekki complains enough, we can even call her Karen, right?

I'll just note that this is explicitly what I'm against, above. And the technique of turning around a Black cultural term into an attack on women, when it was created to call out White women for terrible actions, is breathtakingly privileged.

Again, this is a tiny taste of the aggressions faced by people of color every day for centuries. If it stings, well, that's on us. We need to work to put things right, not try to neuter the complaints by worrying about the label. That is privilege as usual.

SillyRabbit had some suggestions.

You could go with Female Doggo if you can explain why that is less sexist. But then, I’m not sure how we can differentiate Karen to be less offensive, as it degrades the person for both being a woman and her skin color in one word.

As SR said, you can do what you want. But maybe the need for a demeaning name is the problem?

I’m guilty of using it. I just noticed a few things that made me rethink it. And seeing a woman raise this and so easily dismissed makes me not to want to be that guy even more.

Well, post it as a comment somewhere on The Root. We are not the people who should be deciding that it's wrong.

So you didn’t feel guilty for appropriating a term used by PoC to describe racist treatment to also nail those white women for throwing a fit about masks? Because the clip in question, in the thread it exists in, is not about race. But you sure went there super quick. Tells me “Karen” is a lot more loaded than folks want to admit.

Pretty sure this isn't the thread for this discussion either way.

For me, it is about race, and for the people I know outside of here who are telling me it's wrong, it's *definitely* about race. I can only speak from my experiences in this regard.

Does there need to a male equivalent of Karen? I mean, there isn’t really a female Kyle. The two behaviors in question seem to present more frequently in one gender or the other; men rarely make (or are rarely captured making) that specific type of entitled display, and women rarely punch (or are rarely captured punching) holes in drywall in testosterone-fueled overt presentations of violence.

I have no particular attachment to either term, and am happy to find something different because it bothers people, but I don’t know that it’s intrinsically misogynist purely because it refers to women and is a negative reference.

Yeah...Karen does have a sexist feel. (Excellent article BTW!)

Back to Covid.... took my son to pediatrician today (annual visit) and let him go in alone while I stayed in the car. I’d say 2/3 of the people I saw going in and out didn’t have on masks. And then driving by the mall (which is open and has far more cars than you’d think), there’s an outdoor amusement park set up in a parking lot.

I’m reading Barry’s book on the 1918 pandemic, and if Covid mutates and there’s a second wave, we are so dead. I still don’t know if boy will end up going off to college in August or if classes will be online for the fall. (He will be going to Florida, so it doesn’t look good!)

Robear wrote:

No one is attacked because their name is Karen, that I can see. It's the fact that White women (and Kens, their White male counterpart) are finally being called out for their occasionally egregious behavior that's bothering people.

Hey, wait a minute...

p.s. I do my best to avoid Karen as a pejorative. I prefer "entitled jackass." I'm not perfect, though, it may slip out sometimes.

BTW, BIG CONGRATS to FiveIron, although a negative test is kind of a mixed blessing, isn't it.