Wolcen: Lords of Mayhem - Catch All

Yeah, nothing wrong with not being able to play exactly like you want. Not all combinations of skills will work well. Wouldn't be an A-RPG if they did.
But Wolcen surely have some bugs that makes skills and passives not work as intended. Supposedly summon skills was part of that.
Such as in the patchnotes: Fixed an issue preventing summoned minions bonuses to work.

So far I have played 2 chars, just going somewhat randomly down the passive trees, picking things I would like. Both builds have been fine for the campaign difficulty.

You say that, but I challenge you to make a completely non-viable build for a Normal difficulty run of Diablo 3.

My pure caster is completely non-viable. And my health (whatever it's called) stat is within 10-15 points of my primary stat. But the boss of chapter 1 easily kills me in one hit in both phase 2 and phase 3.

r013nt0 wrote:

You say that, but I challenge you to make a completely non-viable build for a Normal difficulty run of Diablo 3.

My pure caster is completely non-viable. And my health (whatever it's called) stat is within 10-15 points of my primary stat. But the boss of chapter 1 easily kills me in one hit in both phase 2 and phase 3.

I have before and it all comes down to the build and what you have to support it. I've done it before in D3 and did it here with Wolcen. Equipped new gear items and completely neutered my build.

Are you trying on Story mode?

r013nt0 wrote:

You say that, but I challenge you to make a completely non-viable build for a Normal difficulty run of Diablo 3.

Sure, but later on in the game that changes. Wolcen kinda just starts the game on a higher difficulty. It is possible to farm more lvls before the boss too.

I certainly prefer the way Wolcen and PoE handles difficulty over Diablo 3s 25 (or whatever it is these days) difficulty settings.

Shadout wrote:

Are you trying on Story mode?

r013nt0 wrote:

You say that, but I challenge you to make a completely non-viable build for a Normal difficulty run of Diablo 3.

Sure, but later on in the game that changes. Wolcen kinda just starts the game on a higher difficulty. It is possible to farm more lvls before the boss too.

I certainly prefer the way Wolcen and PoE handles difficulty over Diablo 3s 25 (or whatever it is these days) difficulty settings.

This is also true... the time from shallow end to deep end is very small compared to other games.

I do not think that's the problem here. The entire conceit of their core mechanic is:

Wolcen Steam page wrote:

Free character development
Wield a great variety of weapons and find your own playstyle thanks to their unique stances and combos. In Wolcen, there is no class, only your weapons set the rules for your skills types.

Three types of resources
Rage and Willpower interact with each other, using the Resource Opposition System. Stamina allows you to use a dodge-roll to avoid danger or travel faster.

And yet they've made it that skills are tied to weapons. So that entire "Resource Opposition System" that they tout is completely not applicable to any bow, staff, or 2H Sword user. The only way to actually take advantage of the core mechanic of the game is to what... use 1H swords + Catalyst or Pistol + Catalyst? It's completely broken. This isn't a matter of "Well of course you can't take a hit, you put no points in health." This is about the fact that they apparently designed the game around a (quite interesting!) core mechanic, and then completely botched the execution in blatantly obvious ways.

imo, of course.

I'm glad some people are having fun because they don't mind looking up optimal builds even for their first playthrough. Or because they got lucky and like melee characters. Or whatever. But that doesn't change the fact that there is a massive disconnect between the way the dev describes their systems, and the way the dev implemented their systems. Remove skills being tied to weapons and the game would be instantly fixed.

I really want to like this game because I'm certainly not going to give Blizzard money for Diablo 4 or anything else at this point. And there are things I really *do* like about this game. But I don't want to build a Gun Mage. I want to play with a staff and cast fireballs and ice nonsense and I can't because it just doesn't work.

My first character was a pure mage using only staves, and my second is a pure melee sword/shield (or 2hander currently because I found an OP 2hander). My impression was indeed the same early on. But there are plenty of skill modifiers, passives and gear that makes you able to counter your limited resources.

It certainly might not be well balanced right now. Since there are negatives to going a pure "class" due to the resource system, there should also be benefits, such as higher dmg per attack etc. Which is not really the case so far it seems. But the pure classes are still viable to play at least.

My caster went through Scholar, Cabalist, Oracle of Trinity, picking up most of the major notes a long the way (skipped Purifiers Will, Insidious Decay and Primordial Insights). I'd probably skip all of Oracle of Trinity if I had known how bad it seems to be (either bugged or undertuned imo).

r013nt0 wrote:

I do not think that's the problem here. The entire conceit of their core mechanic is:

Wolcen Steam page wrote:

Free character development
Wield a great variety of weapons and find your own playstyle thanks to their unique stances and combos. In Wolcen, there is no class, only your weapons set the rules for your skills types.

Three types of resources
Rage and Willpower interact with each other, using the Resource Opposition System. Stamina allows you to use a dodge-roll to avoid danger or travel faster.

And yet they've made it that skills are tied to weapons. So that entire "Resource Opposition System" that they tout is completely not applicable to any bow, staff, or 2H Sword user. The only way to actually take advantage of the core mechanic of the game is to what... use 1H swords + Catalyst or Pistol + Catalyst? It's completely broken. This isn't a matter of "Well of course you can't take a hit, you put no points in health." This is about the fact that they apparently designed the game around a (quite interesting!) core mechanic, and then completely botched the execution in blatantly obvious ways.

Disagree with this assumption

You're forgetting that last line "In Wolcen, there is no class, only your weapons set the rules for your skills types."

Also, and we've discussed this already, all weapons have to deal with Rage/Willpower which is as described.

How do I spend rage with a staff?

r013nt0 wrote:

How do I spend rage with a staff?

LMB

LMB isn't spending rage, is it?

I can cast staff fireballs with 0 meter. LMB is just refilling willpower, not expending rage. (which causes the push/pull of the meter, sure)

...or I just fundamentally don't "get" this game.

You're correct it's not actually spending it, but as a straight caster you don't care about using rage. As a caster when you use skills with will power it tilts the power meter over to rage.

IMAGE(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/151178379851202560/680448317129490448/unknown.png)

To tip the meter back and fill up the willpower side you either go hybrid and have a rage spender or LMB with the staff. As a straight up caster/staff user you manage the amount of willpower you have through gear and passives. I actually had a hard time capturing that shot above because i've built my guy to almost instantly refill the willpower side and it would fill up before i hit my print screen key. So if you've spammed all your abilities and have nothing but rage you LMB to get the willpower recharge going more quickly.

ranalin wrote:

You're correct it's not actually spending it, but as a straight caster you don't care about using rage. As a caster when you use skills with will power it tilts the power meter over to rage.

IMAGE(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/151178379851202560/680448317129490448/unknown.png)

To tip the meter back and fill up the willpower side you either go hybrid and have a rage spender or LMB with the staff. As a straight up caster/staff user you manage the amount of willpower you have through gear and passives. I actually had a hard time capturing that shot above because i've built my guy to almost instantly refill the willpower side and it would fill up before i hit my print screen key. So if you're spammed all your abilities and have nothing but rage you LMB to get the willpower recharge going more quickly.

Well I guess that's part of my complaint, and apparently I'm doing a poor job getting it across.

Story of my life, tbh.

If having these two meters of different powers playing push-pull with each other is the thing you point out in all your marketing, and it is the thing that makes characters in your game more powerful and their play more nuanced, it seems very odd (and broken) to me to lock all 2H weapon users out of that ability completely. Yes, I understand there are some extremely rare drop weapons that enable you to use both powers, but that's late game so I'm not counting it.

My issue with my mage isn't running out of willpower. It's dying instantly to the first damned boss, despite wearing all current-level yellow gear, having all my skills like 4 levels above my character, and a seemingly very reasonable amount of points in toughness.

Why even HAVE rage in this case? It is entirely, completely meaningless for my character.

r013nt0 wrote:
ranalin wrote:

You're correct it's not actually spending it, but as a straight caster you don't care about using rage. As a caster when you use skills with will power it tilts the power meter over to rage.

IMAGE(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/151178379851202560/680448317129490448/unknown.png)

To tip the meter back and fill up the willpower side you either go hybrid and have a rage spender or LMB with the staff. As a straight up caster/staff user you manage the amount of willpower you have through gear and passives. I actually had a hard time capturing that shot above because i've built my guy to almost instantly refill the willpower side and it would fill up before i hit my print screen key. So if you're spammed all your abilities and have nothing but rage you LMB to get the willpower recharge going more quickly.

Well I guess that's part of my complaint, and apparently I'm doing a poor job getting it across.

Story of my life, tbh.

If having these two meters of different powers playing push-pull with each other is the thing you point out in all your marketing, and it is the thing that makes characters in your game more powerful and their play more nuanced, it seems very odd (and broken) to me to lock all 2H weapon users out of that ability completely. Yes, I understand there are some extremely rare drop weapons that enable you to use both powers, but that's late game so I'm not counting it.

My issue with my mage isn't running out of willpower. It's dying instantly to the first damned boss, despite wearing all current-level yellow gear, having all my skills like 4 levels above my character, and a seemingly very reasonable amount of points in toughness.

2h have their own set of abilities that deal with rage. No they don't have 'classes' but they do separate the skills because otherwise things would be entirely broken. It also forces diversity in builds which is a good thing.

FYI you can get those uniques as early as level 13...

As for dying... that's also just becoming familiar with different skills and passives. Movement abilities help dodge attacks so you don't rely totally on stamina, and there's multiple paths down the passive tree to help mitigate damage.

r013nt0 wrote:

My issue with my mage isn't running out of willpower. It's dying instantly to the first damned boss, despite wearing all current-level yellow gear, having all my skills like 4 levels above my character, and a seemingly very reasonable amount of points in toughness.

Interestingly enough, this is why I like the game. I got demolished on the first boss before I learned how to fight him. I was streaming the fight and fishdude knew I was going to die. Once it got close he went "Aaaaaaanddddd .... now" and he was right! I have a new character (Ailement build, using a staff because I found a good purple one) and it took me over 10 minutes to kill the first boss. My DPS was a bit low and I had to swap a skill for the Bulwark spell that heals you, but I did it. I knew the mechanics and what to look for.

PoE / D3, they are all EZ-Mode and you just walk through the game without thinking. If that's what someone wants, those games are there for them. Wolcen, despite having a lot not working 100% as intended currently, is a great game and I think will get even better. I absolutely love the challenge and the sense of accomplishment when you can progress past a difficult boss.

If the game isn't for you at the moment (or really that goes for anyone) then that's fine. Nobody is forcing your hand to play it. Wait a little bit for them to make improvements and corrections and then give it a try in the future. If you are dead-set on playing a summoner and that's it, wait and see what they do with summoners. I've played 3 different builds so far and love them all. Each build has a different playstyle and have gotten me to play a game how I wouldn't otherwise.

*Shrug* To each their own. I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, I just wanted to get some thoughts down in the thread.

EDIT: A good rule of thumb is to have at least 2k life before attemping the first boss. This will prevent any one-shots. I went back and ran a couple of the necropolis areas again to get better gear and it made a world of difference. Sacrificing some DPS for health turned out to be a great strategy.

Ahh shoot. Quote is not edit.

DeThroned wrote:

PoE / D3, they are all EZ-Mode and you just walk through the game without thinking. If that's what someone wants, those games are there for them. Wolcen, despite having a lot not working 100% as intended currently, is a great game and I think will get even better. I absolutely love the challenge and the sense of accomplishment when you can progress past a difficult boss.

To me that's what Torment difficulties are for. That's where you need to give up picking skills just because you like them and instead perfect your build, have all the exactly correct skills, gems, whatever. You work your way up through those difficulty levels gradually. Torment 16 is far from EZ-Mode.

edit: And to circumvent more "Git Gud" comments, I have no problem with difficult games. In fact, I seek them out. This doesn't feel difficult to me. It feels broken.

r013nt0 wrote:
fishdude wrote:

Skip the summoner for now. Try a gun mage or fighter. Load up on crit chance and dmg.

I get it though, game is still very flaky.

Don't play the game the way you want to play it, play it some other way.
Don't choose skills you find interesting, choose these other, specific skills.

Maybe the devs should have made a better game, instead.

Kinda harsh there. I was just saying summoner is borked right now.

Retracting snotty comment......

fishdude wrote:

Kinda harsh there. I was just saying summoner is borked right now.

Retracting snotty comment......

Apologies, wasn't intended to be a harsh statement directed at YOU, personally, was meant to be a harsh statement directed at the state of the game.

One thing I learned fighting the chapter 1 boss is that if you are losing it is probably because you are not doing something right. I would kept getting one hit killed by the 3rd part, and was ready to rage quit. But then I started trying some things like timing my dodge to coincide better with the hits that would one hit kill me and tank the smaller damage instead of trying to dodge it. I upgraded to two health vials so I could last longer and while the last part took a while I did walk away a winner only having to use one of my lives.

The only thing I don't like about the 3 stage boss fight is when you die, you have to start from the first part, which became tedious.

So, it only took me two playthroughs to realize you can roll sockets on all items at the gem vendor... sigh. I have thrown away so many good items.

Shadout wrote:

So, it only took me two playthroughs to realize you can roll sockets on all items at the gem vendor... sigh. I have thrown away so many good items.

It's weirdly inconsistent. I've had it tell me that you can't roll sockets on items that didn't have them (prints it in a red screen splash message, like when you run out of willpower), despite me JUST HAVING DONE THAT ON ANOTHER ITEM.

Yay bugs?

Tyrian wrote:
Shadout wrote:

So, it only took me two playthroughs to realize you can roll sockets on all items at the gem vendor... sigh. I have thrown away so many good items.

It's weirdly inconsistent. I've had it tell me that you can't roll sockets on items that didn't have them (prints it in a red screen splash message, like when you run out of willpower), despite me JUST HAVING DONE THAT ON ANOTHER ITEM.

Yay bugs?

Uniques and Legendaries can't be changed. Only rares...

ranalin wrote:
Tyrian wrote:
Shadout wrote:

So, it only took me two playthroughs to realize you can roll sockets on all items at the gem vendor... sigh. I have thrown away so many good items.

It's weirdly inconsistent. I've had it tell me that you can't roll sockets on items that didn't have them (prints it in a red screen splash message, like when you run out of willpower), despite me JUST HAVING DONE THAT ON ANOTHER ITEM.

Yay bugs?

Uniques and Legendaries can't be changed. Only rares...

Didn't realize only yellow items could get re-rolled. However, it was indeed a yellow. So, still an odd circumstance.

I mean, I've seen nothing stronger than a rare. No legendary or uniques, cept one that was for sale at a merchant I encountered in the field.

Reds can be rerolled

Tyrian wrote:
ranalin wrote:
Tyrian wrote:
Shadout wrote:

So, it only took me two playthroughs to realize you can roll sockets on all items at the gem vendor... sigh. I have thrown away so many good items.

It's weirdly inconsistent. I've had it tell me that you can't roll sockets on items that didn't have them (prints it in a red screen splash message, like when you run out of willpower), despite me JUST HAVING DONE THAT ON ANOTHER ITEM.

Yay bugs?

Uniques and Legendaries can't be changed. Only rares...

Didn't realize only yellow items could get re-rolled. However, it was indeed a yellow. So, still an odd circumstance.

I mean, I've seen nothing stronger than a rare. No legendary or uniques, cept one that was for sale at a merchant I encountered in the field.

Oh, I'm an idiot, BTW. I had apparently grabbed a gauntlet or boot slot yellow I had equipped. I guess those can't have gem sockets? I just assumed everything could, but I bet that's what I tried to re-roll.

I picked this up this weekend and played 3 pure classes up to the point where you go back to meet "father". I tried a super short stint trying to do a melee/catalyst build but I just couldn't get the hang of it. I tried see-sawing rage and willpower spenders but couldn't get it to work and I felt like I had a lot of down time.

So I tried a dual pistol rogue, staff caster, and two-hand warrior. I actually ended up liking the build I had the least amount of interest in and decided to move ahead with the warrior. Doesn't hurt that the only purple I found was a greatsword that has 3x the damage of the next best weapons I've been finding.

I've completed the story 3 times now. 1st with a gun mage. Pistol and catalyst. 2nd with a poison build using dagger and shield. 3rd with 2 hander bleed/crit build which was by far the easiest. Even got achievement for not dying this time around.

Played a fair amount more on my second character this weekend than I expected. I played a round with a bunch of builds.

So far my opinion on builds so far.

Warrior/Rage - By far the strongest and I expect it to be nerfed in the future. Even at level 40 i had little issue with lvl 60+ enemies. Two handed seems to be strongest but 1 handed with shield can do work also. If you are having issues with difficulty I recommend either A. waiting for some balance patches or B. Playing 2 handed warrior.

Pistols/Bow - Seems to be the most "balanced" with content difficulty currently. Can be challenging and strong enough to get through (have beaten 60+ enemies but was a struggle at lvl 50ish). This is what I'm sticking with going forward.

Sorcerer's - Seem to just to be not very good currently. Playing solo the only viable build is Damage over time build. Even that is not great though. Ailment build can get you through the main game but falls of late game. In multiplayer you could certainly stick with ailments just to debuff for others.

Mix builds - The reason these are not good currently is because of how weak magic is in general right now. Once they get some balance tweaks I expect these to be a lot of fun but I do expect them to stay more a late game build because you really need all the pieces.

Side note Boss's are also much easier solo than in duo.

I played as a caster first and was like "this is fun!" then I tried the rogue and bee-lined through the skill trees to get double shot and cold enchant and then I was like "holy crap! casters do such low damage!" then I played the warrior and just face tanked all the bosses with my health barely dipping. Definitely different experiences.