2019/20 Soccer Thread

Bro, are you drunk posting? Serious question. No offense, as you said!

Fedaykin98 wrote:

Man, I want to watch soccer, but the Bundesliga is such an uncompetitive league that I can't get interested.

With all of the big European teams and leagues trying to increase their profile in the United States, could that ever inspire them adopting any rules to aid competitiveness?

I do understand that pro/rel tends to make stakeholders dislike parity.

Uncompetitive? Until very "recently", this season was being the very best across the European major leagues with a lot of teams fighting for the 1st place for a long time. Now Bayern seems to have it locked down since winning against Dortmund, but the 2nd place is still up for grabs between 4 teams.

Meanwhile, the premier league is only competitive in the fight for 4th place and relegation, I guess?

slazev wrote:
Fedaykin98 wrote:

Man, I want to watch soccer, but the Bundesliga is such an uncompetitive league that I can't get interested.

With all of the big European teams and leagues trying to increase their profile in the United States, could that ever inspire them adopting any rules to aid competitiveness?

I do understand that pro/rel tends to make stakeholders dislike parity.

Uncompetitive? Until very "recently", this season was being the very best across the European major leagues with a lot of teams fighting for the 1st place for a long time. Now Bayern seems to have it locked down since winning against Dortmund, but the 2nd place is still up for grabs between 4 teams.

Meanwhile, the premier league is only competitive in the fight for 4th place and relegation, I guess?

If we're referencing just this year, fine, but they've won seven years in a row and you just said they're a lock for eight. That's what I'm calling uncompetitive.

Since we all agree sportswashing is bad, I'd point out that if you have things like salary caps it makes it very difficult to buy your way to prominence.

Yes, but salary caps would introduce a set of problems. Less incentive for player movement between countries, different taxes per country, so many countries would have to be in agreement, etc.

Bear in mind that the Bundesliga doesn't have the "petrol" teams like the Premier League. Well, there's Leipzig, I guess.
And yes, I'm talking about this year. Weren't you? I'm hoping the next years will be more of this.

As someone who started watching European soccer about five years ago, thinking about how Bayern has won it every year of that period plus three before is a turn-off. I'm fine with people disagreeing, your opinion is welcome, but I must say I'm surprised that you are surprised by mine.

In American leagues of most any sport, a three-year championship run is an exceptional thing. Heck, two years is uncommon outside of basketball (which has the fewest players of the major team sports, and so lends itself more to building a team that can win multiple championships).

Salary caps are just naked profiteering for ownership sold under the guise of competitive balance. Anything that limits the agency of and compensation to players (who are the labour and the product) is abhorrent.

Roke wrote:

Salary caps are just naked profiteering for ownership sold under the guise of competitive balance. Anything that limits the agency of and compensation to players (who are the labour and the product) is abhorrent.

Well, you obviously feel very strongly about this! Do you prefer any other methods to promote competitive balance? Multiple things can be bad at once: Your example is one, but the richest teams continually buying their way to the championship is another one, for me. Allowing autocratic regimes with horrible human rights records buy those championships, even worse.

Btw I'm aware that Germany has a history of what they consider to be proper club ownership, although I'm not familiar with the details.

In any case, I'm not calling for the sweeping transformation of European soccer here, just having a chat about whether there is a better way possible. I also don't think that American leagues necessarily have it right - I support player agency, as you mentioned, and I'd be fine if drafts were eliminated.

Roke wrote:

Salary caps are just naked profiteering for ownership sold under the guise of competitive balance. Anything that limits the agency of and compensation to players (who are the labour and the product) is abhorrent.

There are various clubs in the Premier League who pay something like 60% of their annual revenue on player wages. They aren't the clubs regularly competing in Europe, they are the clubs battling relegation every year because the difference between being in the Premier League and not being in the Premier league quickly runs into £100millions.

the point is that all the clubs are on different levels - within the Premiership and without. Player wages are inflated - massively inflated - by clubs like Man City and PSG who can and will pay massively above the odds to get their man, both in terms of the transfer fee and the wages they are willing to offer. The $200 million for Neymar was the breaking point of that. It resets everything a magnitude above what most clubs can afford, so you get into the whole situation of the really rich clubs farming all the best players the slightly lower down clubs invest in and bring through. Player wages are a huge part of that, they distort the market.

It is a mess and FFP doesn't really help. Ultimately though it's all about preventing the major players across Europe from forming their own super league and blocking everyone else out. They'd take all the money with them and most other leagues wouldn't survive. In the long run that might not be the worst thing that happens if everyone goes back to a level playing field, but there will be a huge amount of collateral damage if that occurs.

Sorbicol wrote:
Roke wrote:

Salary caps are just naked profiteering for ownership sold under the guise of competitive balance. Anything that limits the agency of and compensation to players (who are the labour and the product) is abhorrent.

There are various clubs in the Premier League who pay something like 60% of their annual revenue on player wages. They aren't the clubs regularly competing in Europe, they are the clubs battling relegation every year because the difference between being in the Premier League and not being in the Premier league quickly runs into £100millions.

the point is that all the clubs are on different levels - within the Premiership and without. Player wages are inflated - massively inflated - by clubs like Man City and PSG who can and will pay massively above the odds to get their man, both in terms of the transfer fee and the wages they are willing to offer. The $200 million for Neymar was the breaking point of that. It resets everything a magnitude above what most clubs can afford, so you get into the whole situation of the really rich clubs farming all the best players the slightly lower down clubs invest in and bring through. Player wages are a huge part of that, they distort the market.

It is a mess and FFP doesn't really help. Ultimately though it's all about preventing the major players across Europe from forming their own super league and blocking everyone else out. They'd take all the money with them and most other leagues wouldn't survive. In the long run that might not be the worst thing that happens if everyone goes back to a level playing field, but there will be a huge amount of collateral damage if that occurs.

I'm not sure what the point of this post is.

Salary caps =/ clubs using outside money to pump up their books. They are two seperate things.

To Rokes point I 100% agree.

Fredy don't watch then. The other leagues all return this month. For every American looking at the European system and think salary cap there's Europeans who look at the American system and are equally confused.

I side with euros and actual competition. Salary caps are for owners to squeeze extra cash out. Once you come around to that realization it's really hard to argue for the mega rich to get richer.

jowner wrote:

I'm not sure what the point of this post is.

Yeah that's a fair comment. I think I was trying to say that salary caps aren't really going to solve any competitive issues. I just said it very badly.

Fedaykin98 wrote:
Roke wrote:

Salary caps are just naked profiteering for ownership sold under the guise of competitive balance. Anything that limits the agency of and compensation to players (who are the labour and the product) is abhorrent.

Well, you obviously feel very strongly about this! Do you prefer any other methods to promote competitive balance? Multiple things can be bad at once: Your example is one, but the richest teams continually buying their way to the championship is another one, for me. Allowing autocratic regimes with horrible human rights records buy those championships, even worse.

Massive amounts of revenue sharing between teams is the best I can think of, but looking at baseball you just see the Lorias and Jeters of the world just pocketing that money instead of investing it. Though baseball, like all North American leagues, has the problem where being incompetent and losing is actually rewarded.

Autocratic regimes buying teams is one thing (where I've arrived at my incredibly hypocritical "if it's okay for the "progressive" Trudeau government to announce they're allowing arms exports to Saudi Arabia the afternoon before a long weekend it's okay to keep cheering for a club that gets bought by their sovereign wealth fund).

But I don't have a problem with any ownership pumping loads of money into a club. To prevent that from happening means you're maintaining the status quo, keeping any possible challenger away from the big clubs. The big split in quality of teams between East/West Germany since reunification is why, other than the branding being comical, seeing Leipzig's owner having invested a tonne of money in the club doesn't bother me.

Sorbicol wrote:
jowner wrote:

I'm not sure what the point of this post is.

Yeah that's a fair comment. I think I was trying to say that salary caps aren't really going to solve any competitive issues. I just said it very badly.

Gotcha. Just couldn't parse where you stood on things.

I think the problem Americans have with European leagues is they are used to more variability of contenders year to year.

I just think the sample sizes are too small. Sure Bayern Munich have been dominant for 60ish years but that's actually not a very long time.

Give me a 1000 year German League champion sample size. Then I'll start considering something is broken. Even then maybe that's how things should be.

For me leagues are where things are somewhat predictable but not always. League cups less so. European cups even less so.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

As someone who started watching European soccer about five years ago, thinking about how Bayern has won it every year of that period plus three before is a turn-off. I'm fine with people disagreeing, your opinion is welcome, but I must say I'm surprised that you are surprised by mine.

In American leagues of most any sport, a three-year championship run is an exceptional thing. Heck, two years is uncommon outside of basketball (which has the fewest players of the major team sports, and so lends itself more to building a team that can win multiple championships).

I'm not surprised! I'm surprised you're surprised because you think I'm surprised!

Like jowner said, most european leagues have only a few, usually less than 5, teams that constantly challenge the title. In historical terms, I believe the Premier League is an exception with the great variety of teams that have won the title.

Premier League plans fixture list with Everton-Liverpool set for first Sunday

The Premier League’s clubs have been presented with a provisional fixture list for the first three full match rounds of Project Restart, with the standout detail on the opening weekend being that Everton are set to face Liverpool on Sunday 21 June at 7pm – a game Sky plans to show on its Freeview channel.

If Manchester City were to lose to Arsenal on Wednesday 17 June on the reopening night when the games in hand from when the competition was shutdown in mid-March are played, then Liverpool could claim their first league title since 1990 with a victory in the derby.

It is hoped the game will be held at Goodison Park, rather than a neutral venue which had been suggested by the national police force, who are wrestling with various logistical issues. Merseyside police have indicated that they do have the capacity to help to stage it at Goodison. The city council’s safety advisory group will meet on Monday and it should be confirmed then whether the match will be at Goodison.

Neutral venues were one of the discussion points at a broadly positive conference call between the league and the 20 clubs on Thursday. The issue has swung one way and then the other, with it appearing at one point like a prerequisite for the season to be finished before it faded from the agenda.

slazev wrote:

Like jowner said, most european leagues have only a few, usually less than 5, teams that constantly challenge the title. In historical terms, I believe the Premier League is an exception with the great variety of teams that have won the title.

I know this, and it sucks!

Clubs in English Football League One and League Two have voted today to end their seasons, with final positions set on average points per game and then the usual promotion and relegation. No word yet on how the playoffs will be handled.

The only real movement caused by points-per-game is in League One, where Wycombe go from eighth to third because of having a game in hand on everyone else and thereby bump Peterbrough out of the playoff spots.

Some shenanigans remain at the bottom of League Two, where Macclesfield Town are three points above bottom side Stevenage. Macclesfield have already had eleven points deducted this season due to misconduct and have a further suspended two point penalty, which could drop them down to just a point above Stevenage.

Macclesfield were given further misconduct charges on June 1 over failure to pay players and if they lost more points as a result of that case they could then drop below Stevenage into the single relegation spot out of the Football League into the National League.

Mr Bismarck wrote:

Clubs in English Football League One and League Two have voted today to end their seasons, with final positions set on average points per game and then the usual promotion and relegation. No word yet on how the playoffs will be handled.

The only real movement caused by points-per-game is in League One, where Wycombe go from eighth to third because of having a game in hand on everyone else and thereby bump Peterbrough out of the playoff spots.

Some shenanigans remain at the bottom of League Two, where Macclesfield Town are three points above bottom side Stevenage. Macclesfield have already had eleven points deducted this season due to misconduct and have a further suspended two point penalty, which could drop them down to just a point above Stevenage.

Macclesfield were given further misconduct charges on June 1 over failure to pay players and if they lost more points as a result of that case they could then drop below Stevenage into the single relegation spot out of the Football League into the National League.

Enjoy Burton away, Sunderland.

The more things change.......

It feels deeply weird that things are starting up again, but given that we're on the brink of resuming the PL season, thought I'd post a snapshot of where we left off.

IMAGE(https://i.imgur.com/mHZkWen.png)

Dimmerswitch wrote:

It feels deeply weird that things are starting up again, but given that we're on the brink of resuming the PL season, thought I'd post a snapshot of where we left off.

You should have waited until the teams were locked in so I would have forgotten to update my teams.

If the takeover ever goes through I'm going to have to come up with a new team name.

You overestimate the degree to which I view this as a competition, instead of a fun thing to do with friends.

Roke wrote:

You should have waited until the teams were locked in so I would have forgotten to update my teams.

If the takeover ever goes through I'm going to have to come up with a new team name.

I mean, it's imperative next season that every team name be some dumb COVID-19 joke, right?

Prederick wrote:
Roke wrote:

You should have waited until the teams were locked in so I would have forgotten to update my teams.

If the takeover ever goes through I'm going to have to come up with a new team name.

I mean, it's imperative next season that every team name be some dumb COVID-19 joke, right?

Maskchester United?
Deliver-pool?

Hotwings delivered on the Spur of the moment?

First Premier League game back ends 0-0 with yet another VAR fiasco.

Nature is healing.

It's so good to have David Luiz back.

Prederick wrote:

First Premier League game back ends 0-0 with yet another VAR fiasco.

Nature is healing.

A like isn't enough Pred. That's the good sh*t there.

Just as kick off was blown for in the Aston Villa v Sheffield United game the players, refs and staff all took the knee to support Black Lives Matter.

As statements go, it was powerful stuff. The Man City & Arsenal players did the same.

Edit: David Luiz - He sure does make sure he's in the headlines doesn't he?

Prederick wrote:

First Premier League game back ends 0-0 with yet another VAR fiasco.

Nature is healing.

Holy crap Pred, perfect.

Also perfect: Arsenal apparently melting down after The Athletic's hagiography of Arteta.

Sorbicol wrote:

Just as kick off was blown for in the Aston Villa v Sheffield United game the players, refs and staff all took the knee to support Black Lives Matter.

As statements go, it was powerful stuff. The Man City & Arsenal players did the same.

Edit: David Luiz - He sure does make sure he's in the headlines doesn't he?

It's a great statement. Personally, I'd love to see someone do the 8:46. That would be radical.