Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order - Catch All

The last stretch of this game:

More in-depth thoughts on that final bit:

Spoiler:

I imagine most people started hearing Darth Vader breathing and started to flip their lids. That sudden onset of panic from knowing you probably have to fight Darth Vader followed by the absolute excitement that you get to fight Darth Vader.

I groaned. We had a Skywalker free game for 99% of the time, and then they just had to drag him in. The once henchman that was never really considered a big deal until people fapped all over his shining black helmet in 1977. Remember when Spider-Man 2 came out and they over-played Nickelback on every single radio station, to the point that you could swap between two different stations and they were playing the song perfectly in sync with one another? (True story, really happened to me) That's Darth Vader, especially after the prequels. The only thing worse is Boba Fett. Boba Fett is basically the Abba of Star Wars characters.

I think it's a great shame because they could have wrapped up the story's dramatic narrative themes in a way that was better for the characters. Cere telling Trilla "My mistakes left you with no choices... but I'm done taking responsibility for who you are. From now on, you have a choice, and it's yours to make, and I'm not going to take the blame." Trilla, angry at this confrontation and her mentor's newfound lack of guilt and acceptance of the past, lashes out. Have that final cut-scene, but with Trilla unleashing all her rage in the dark side, losing control, wounding Cal, and then having Cere ready to kill Trilla until Cal calms her down. Further enraged, Trilla basically decides to take them both with her, busts up the passageway, but Cere's force shield combined with Cal's quick action saves them both while Trilla brings about her own demise.

Congratulations, everyone's narrative is wrapped up kindly. But I guess people like that brief "Avenge us" that Trilla utters that "redeems" her? Even though not everyone can be redeemed? Whatever. It's fine. It's a fine conclusion, and I know a whole bunch of people will be having a seizure of joy as you hear that familiar Iron Lung strapped to Vader's everything. I just feel like it encapsulates this game for me. I'm caught up in the drama, it's going really well so far, and then something happens that makes me groan.

It's inevitably going to be on my Game of the Year list, but the question is whether this will get the higher spot or Control, and the only reason this one might is because it at least has difficulty settings.

I've got 100% on majority planets, so I might go in and clear up Kashyyk and Zeffo on Story Mode. Though, unfortunately, I missed some codex entries on Dathomir, which... I guess another complaint.

Spoiler:

Aside from how awful it is to fight hordes of Nightsisters and hordes of Bug Critters, there are areas this game has actively made it more difficult to explore. I was trying to figure out a shortcut to get to the last 1% of area I had to explore, and I thought the Nightbrother village would do it... only, no. There's no way to just use the main bridge and exit the village for some reason. They didn't bother opening any passageway up so you could take a convenient shortcut. So to get this last section, I had to use one of those slides, and all so I could... use a rock wall that I wouldn't have conceivably climbed on the critical path. It's basically a shortcut with no purpose as opposed to the shortcut with a purpose.

Basically, this was a nice prototype and I hope potential sequels get the majority of the weaker elements out of there.

I really did end up liking all the characters, though, and aside from that last stretch, I found it more appealing than any of the Star Wars films following the original trilogy. Kind of like "This is the tone and quality Rogue One was shooting for" if that makes sense.

Ugh, is this going to turn into another excuse for people to trash the new Star Wars films?

I like them.

I also liked the final encounter of this game. So, like, I'm not saying you have to like the same things as me, ccesarano; but as long as we're throwing out opinions, hey, there are those of us who feel differently.

I can't speak for the wide variety of subjective opinions out there, and there are parts that I think are objectively mediocre-to-poorly designed; but for a lot of Star Wars fans, I think there's plenty of joy to be had in running through this game on Story Mode, just for the ride.

Sorry, rewrote the conclusion of my last post to be less confrontational and hot-take and more a summary of "here is my subjective opinion without shaming others". Hopefully it works.

beeporama wrote:

I also liked the final encounter of this game. So, like, I'm not saying you have to like the same things as me, ccesarano; but as long as we're throwing out opinions, hey, there are those of us who feel differently.

I hope my thoughts made it clear that I understand why people would like it, and were less confrontational and shamey. I just... have exhaustion to that particular element.

But I also expect to be in the minority on it. I came to this game for the gameplay and didn't really care about it being Star Wars, and if this game accomplished anything it made me find Star Wars appealing again. Probably sounds like a back-handed compliment but I guess to that extent I feel it's closer to say that Jedi: Fallen Order understands what makes Star Wars what it is outside of the superficial stuff.

Does that make sense?

ccesarano wrote:

I hope my thoughts made it clear that I understand why people would like it, and were less confrontational and shamey. I just... have exhaustion to that particular element.

But I also expect to be in the minority on it. I came to this game for the gameplay and didn't really care about it being Star Wars, and if this game accomplished anything it made me find Star Wars appealing again.

I guess I'm also sorry if I was defensive about it. The internet has done a lot to make me feel ashamed of liking the new Star Wars movies.

Obviously my experiences were very different, but I can see why. I came in more because I like Star Wars, and I felt like playing something casual right now, so I felt little compunction about dropping to Story Mode pretty quickly. Someone like you (more interested in gameplay than the license)... well, I think they did better by the license than the gameplay.

Spoiler:

And being able to carve through most of the other battles probably made the unwinnable final confrontation a more interesting, dramatic change of pace.

Finished it and loved it. The ending came just at the right time for me. Not feeling any motivation to try and 100% it, especially since the unlocks are just skins. I'd love to see something a little longer with more RPG elements attached.

Played on the difficulty above story mode which was perfect for me right until the last battle. I wish there was something in between them, or just some more forgiving checkpointing but I never got super frustrated.

Ending was badass. Hope we don't have to wait more than a couple years for another one.

Finished the game. Loved it, Loved that last encounter.

I would like to back up Beeporama's sentiment on this. I get where cceserano's criticism is coming from, the the moments they disliked are exactly the moments I loved the most. I kinda feel like it is "I don't like the cheesy melodrama that makes up a lot of star wars, and I didn't like it when it happened in this game either" where as that melodrama is what i'm coming to the party for.

i think people come to star wars from different directions and love it for different elements. I personally felt like this game hit every emotional beat i want from a star war: Force mysticism and the constant vigilance required not to fall to the dark side, paired with the message that no one can walk down the dark path so long they cannot choose to embrace redemption. The stark almost brutalist empire paired with the gritty dirty organic feel of the 'common people.' It even had a scoundrel with a checkered past who finds redemption by joining up with the idealists.

thrawn82 wrote:

Finished the game. Loved it, Loved that last encounter.

I would like to back up Beeporama's sentiment on this. I get where cceserano's criticism is coming from, the the moments they disliked are exactly the moments I loved the most. I kinda feel like it is "I don't like the cheesy melodrama that makes up a lot of star wars, and I didn't like it when it happened in this game either" where as that melodrama is what i'm coming to the party for.

i think people come to star wars from different directions and love it for different elements. I personally felt like this game hit every emotional beat i want from a star war: Force mysticism and the constant vigilance required not to fall to the dark side, paired with the message that no one can walk down the dark path so long they cannot choose to embrace redemption. The stark almost brutalist empire paired with the gritty dirty organic feel of the 'common people.' It even had a scoundrel with a checkered past who finds redemption by joining up with the idealists.

Great post and I agree with it 100% but I haven't finished the game yet.

Hedinn wrote:
thrawn82 wrote:

Finished the game. Loved it, Loved that last encounter.

I would like to back up Beeporama's sentiment on this. I get where cceserano's criticism is coming from, the the moments they disliked are exactly the moments I loved the most. I kinda feel like it is "I don't like the cheesy melodrama that makes up a lot of star wars, and I didn't like it when it happened in this game either" where as that melodrama is what i'm coming to the party for.

i think people come to star wars from different directions and love it for different elements. I personally felt like this game hit every emotional beat i want from a star war: Force mysticism and the constant vigilance required not to fall to the dark side, paired with the message that no one can walk down the dark path so long they cannot choose to embrace redemption. The stark almost brutalist empire paired with the gritty dirty organic feel of the 'common people.' It even had a scoundrel with a checkered past who finds redemption by joining up with the idealists.

Great post and I agree with it 100% but I haven't finished the game yet.

do you feel like it needs spoiler tagging? i tried not to be specific

thrawn82 wrote:

I kinda feel like it is "I don't like the cheesy melodrama that makes up a lot of star wars, and I didn't like it when it happened in this game either" where as that melodrama is what i'm coming to the party for.

Ehh, not really. Believe you me I have no issue with cheesy melodrama. I watch wrasslin' for cryin' out loud. And anime. Both are littered with the stuff.

Spoiler:

It really has to do with the fan-service of Darth Vader, but I'm just exhausted with lightsabers altogether. As you said, everyone gets something different out of Star Wars, and for me I always loved that "Fantasy in Space" feel of it, but part of what makes that work is how uncommon the Force and lightsabers were. My childhood was just as much Lord of the Rings as anything else, and in Lord of the Rings magic was also rare and uncommon. I've come to prefer these things as an adult, where the only time the Force, magic, or lightsabers are broken out is when something big is about to happen. The moment that it's meaningful.

When the prequels released and lightsabers were everywhere, I gradually grew less and less interested in the mysticism of the Jedi. When Star Wars became nothing but lightsabers and Jedi, it basically removed any of the charm of the original. When everyone is a prestige class Fighter-Wizard at max level, what's the point? What's the fun? The rag tag group of the original trilogy is what made it so wonderful, and you're right, that's what Jedi: Fallen Order captures very well. Probably part of the reason I really enjoy it despite the fact that being a Jedi is a core part of the experience. Hell, I think part of the reason I like the challenge and combat, even, is because being a Jedi shouldn't be an instant win button. It should require discipline. It should require death if you're careless. Discipline is what defines the Jedi, right? They're only so powerful because they can be so calm, right?

Well, who the Hell knows. It was loosely based on Buddhist principles with some Samurai in there and became an entire religion inspired by a crap ton of extended lore that wasn't even written by George himself, and then turned into one of the most hypocritical organizations in the Prequels. So who knows what a Jedi really is supposed to be.

Regardless of any of that, to me, Jedi and lightsabers are over-played, and the most iconic example of all of them is Darth Vader. The best I can summarize it is that Darth Vader's presence does not add anything to the story itself. It does not substantially resolve the arcs of the characters. He's blatant fan-service, and just like a panty-shot or boob bounce in an anime or JRPG, there's always going to be some people that argue the fan-service makes it better.

But does it? Does it really?

Arguing that Darth Vader's inclusion is no more deep than a panty-shot or boob bounce in this community is a losing fight, though. I get why people enjoy it. I just don't agree that makes it good. I would, in fact, argue that chasing a legacy is precisely why there's a whole lot of people that fell out of love with Star Wars. It lost sight of where it began and has instead become so focused on what its popularity has deemed the important elements, and most of those elements are superficial and don't speak to the deeper resonance of what made the stories work in the first place.

But to bring this back, Jedi: Fallen Order got it 99% right, I think. I believe they made a sincerely good Star Wars story. I just think that 1% could have been better if it wasn't catering to a superficial sense of what makes Star Wars what it is.

ccesarano, thanks for that big spoilered write-up. I get where you're coming from much better now. Although I'm feeling more forgiving, I even think I agree with you.

thrawn82 wrote:

do you feel like it needs spoiler tagging? i tried not to be specific

No, IMO it's sufficiently vague but I am not very sensitive to spoilers, so I am a poor judge of this kind of stuff.

I am not going to read cceasarano's spoiler though, the first sentence made me go "Wait, what?!"

I've been following this thread but skipping all the posts since I do intend to play this game. For about a week after its release, YouTube was filled with spoiler headlines for the story. I typically don't care about spoilers but that's when I'm actively seeking them out and that got me quite annoyed.

Enjoyed it overall. Missed a few corners at 98%, but I'm ok with that. If they create a sequel, and I'd be open to it, hope the collectibles are more than palette swaps.

Quote is not edit.

Just finished up this one. I really enjoyed it. I played on Jedi Master for most of the game, switching down only at the end of Dathomir. By that stage it felt like the game was already over and I was pretty keen to see it through to the end. It did make the fighting much less satisfying though.

Ending spoilers from here on.

Spoiler:

I was surprised the gang all survived. Similar to Rogue One, I was predicting that they all die, hence them never being heard of again. But nope, they live, just not doing anything important to the main Star Wars story, I guess.

Which also means there's a good chance we'll see these characters in a sequel. That's a little disappointing, to be honest. It's not that I dislike them, but I can't say I like them much either.

ccesarano wrote:
Spoiler:

Regardless of any of that, to me, Jedi and lightsabers are over-played, and the most iconic example of all of them is Darth Vader. The best I can summarize it is that Darth Vader's presence does not add anything to the story itself. It does not substantially resolve the arcs of the characters. He's blatant fan-service, and just like a panty-shot or boob bounce in an anime or JRPG, there's always going to be some people that argue the fan-service makes it better.

Spoiler:

I disagree a bit with some of what you wrote, but I agree with this for the most part. There was literally no reason for Vader to show up. Maybe a convenient way to kill off Trilla? But was that even necessary? Not really.

Personally I think that aside from that last scene, the game did a pretty job of managing the fan service. There were lots of reference to things from other movies/tv series etc, but it rarely felt like a big *wink wink nudge nudge* to the audience. It was just more talking about and showing things from the already established universe because they're part of the world, of course they'll be there.

I liked the game overall, but I feel like this could have been a MUCH better game with a different protagonist:

Spoiler:

Specifically, Cere Junda.

Look, I don't hate Cal, but he's yet another mostly-forgettable White Male Protagonist who exists to solve the other character's problems: most of whom, in this case, are women and POCs.

Cal doesn't even have a satisfying character arc. Cal's character development ends on Dathomir, when he finally has the courage to forgive himself for something that wasn't even his fault in the first place. Jaro's death wasn't Cal's fault: he didn't make any mistakes, or fail his master in some way. He's just got some generic survivor's guilt over Jaro's death -- which isn't terrible, as character motivations go, except literally every other character in the game has a more interesting backstory.

Fallen Order is Cere's story, plain and simple. She's the one who wants to find the Holocron, the main antagonist is her former apprentice, and pretty much every major story beat relates to Cere in some way. I half suspect that Cere WAS the protagonist at some point in the game's development, before some higher-up decreed that the game must have a White Male Protagonist, so they slapped together Cal and stripped away all of Cere's agency in the process.

I mean honestly, we have TWO former Jedis with a broken connection to the Force. Mechanically, the game could have worked just as well with Cere rebuilding her connection to the Force after her fall to the Dark Side.

And story-wise? Pretty much everything works better with Cere as the protagonist. Eno Cordova is her master after all: tracking down his recordings could have been a way for her to reconnect with her former master and revisit her own past. BD-1? It makes way more sense for him, as a fellow friend of Cordova, to have a connection with Cere.

Dathomir gets way more interesting with Cere in the driver's seat: the planet is heavily steeped in the dark side, it would have been the perfect place to explore Cere's own fall to the dark side. Taron Malicos, as another former Jedi who fell to the dark side, makes a much more interesting antagonist for Cere than for Cal. And Merrin, as another young woman who lost everything and embraced the dark side, makes an interesting counterpoint to Trilla.
Cal has no skin in the game on Dathomir: he's never fallen to the dark side. The temple is a chance for him to overcome his guilt about Jaro's death, but that could have happened literally anywhere. For Cere, the temple would have been the perfect place for her to confront her own fall to the dark side and finally overcome its temptation.

Ilum would have been more interesting as well. Cal was only ever a Padawan, so for him revisiting Ilum isn't really that big a deal. It's a single step backward on his journey to becoming a Jedi. But for Cere, a former Jedi Knight, revisiting Ilum would be a much bigger deal. A fallen Knight having to start back over at the very beginning? That's a humbling experience. Also, as a former Seeker, she could have had to confront the fact that some of the younglings she sought out ultimately failed their test on Ilum.

The ending would have played out much the same, as Cal mainly exists to open doors until Cere is able to confront Trilla. Facing Vader, she would have had to once again resist the call of the dark side on her own, rather than having Perfect Uncorruptable Cal to talk her down.

The final scene would have worked a lot better as well. As it plays out in-game, Cere has learned absolutely nothing from her journey: she still wants to find the children and rebuild the Order, and Cal the Wise has to make the decision for her to destroy the holocron. But if Cere had to make that decision herself? A former Seeker choosing to abandon her duty, so that the force-sensitive children could have a chance to live out their lives in peace? That's a much more interesting story.

Spoiler:

except her animation is one of the worst ones in the game :(

Rat Boy wrote:

So I know there's really no reason to, but (Dathomir-ish spoilers):

Spoiler:

Make a second trip to Ilum. Trust me.

Spoiler:

Just had a thought, is this implying that the Empire were the ones who built Starkiller? Given that the First Order won't exist for another 30 or so years.

halfwaywrong wrote:
Rat Boy wrote:

So I know there's really no reason to, but (Dathomir-ish spoilers):

Spoiler:

Make a second trip to Ilum. Trust me.

Spoiler:

Just had a thought, is this implying that the Empire were the ones who built Starkiller? Given that the First Order won't exist for another 30 or so years.

Spoiler:

Or it implies that the Empire and the First Order really were taking a long view.

halfwaywrong wrote:

Ending spoilers from here on.

Spoiler:

I was surprised the gang all survived. Similar to Rogue One, I was predicting that they all die, hence them never being heard of again. But nope, they live, just not doing anything important to the main Star Wars story, I guess.

Which also means there's a good chance we'll see these characters in a sequel. That's a little disappointing, to be honest. It's not that I dislike them, but I can't say I like them much either.

Spoiler:

I have a feeling that they end up being involved in Episode IX. If they can find some way to retcon out the "Rey's parents are nobody", I could see her being Cal and Merrin's daughter, or granddaughter.

halfwaywrong wrote:
Rat Boy wrote:

So I know there's really no reason to, but (Dathomir-ish spoilers):

Spoiler:

Make a second trip to Ilum. Trust me.

Spoiler:

Just had a thought, is this implying that the Empire were the ones who built Starkiller? Given that the First Order won't exist for another 30 or so years.

Spoiler:

Well yes. It implies the first order originated in the empire and is a creation of Palpatine, and starkiller base was a long term plan by palp as a successor to the death star, which is more than just implied in Wendig's trilogy and I suspect will be a big plot point in The Last Jedi.

Finished it, loved it. I played on Jedi Master difficulty and while at times the controls and camera were infuriating, the combat was good enough to overcome that. (I can't imagine what the parry timing is like on Grand Master, given how tough it is on Master.) The last battle was suitably epic and difficult, and

Spoiler:

I liked that you didn't actually fight Vader but rather ran as fast as possible. It also closed out the narrative but reminded the player that there's a larger continuing conflict.

This game had better writing and narrative than most of the recent movies (Rogue One excepted). I'd love to see these characters again.

Hey, wow, fantastic insight!

muttonchop wrote:

I liked the game overall, but I feel like this could have been a MUCH better game with a different protagonist:

Spoiler:

Specifically, Cere Junda.

...

I half suspect that Cere WAS the protagonist at some point in the game's development, before some higher-up decreed that the game must have a White Male Protagonist, so they slapped together Cal and stripped away all of Cere's agency in the process.

Spoiler:

Although it takes little cynicism for me to imagine this happening, they could have easily made Cere a white male. Given that, I can only suspect that her much more compelling arc is an artifact of an iterative writing process under time crunch. (The choice that the protagonist was some young white male, though, I'm sure was marketing caution/cowardice.)

Rolled credits this weekend, enjoyed the whole thing quite a bit. It starts off as bit of a slog (post lead-in), but once you get more movement upgrades, and add some life / force max upgrades, things start feeling a lot smoother. Hell, I'm probably going back to get the rest of the trophies!

I think it would have been improved with the player having been able to create their character rather than forcing a specific archetype, but I get that they didn't want to record a second set of dialogue (I assume from the mocap and costs associated therewith?). As someone else commented, Cal is a generic enough name it could apply to anyone, so they shouldn't need to re-record much else.

Anyhoo, would definitely play DLC, or a new game featuring more of these characters (just don't make me re-learn all the force movement stuff. Please). Hell, I'd play more games/stories set in this timeframe or universe. Planet traversal, open world (ish), exploration based stuff, with combat and puzzles to solve. Give me some additional RPG elements (leveling up, stats, loot [maybe]), and it'd be even cooler!

Side note, I still get a fair amount of Ratchet and Clank vibes from the whole thing. Companion robot that hangs out on your back and solves technical / movement related puzzles. Melee weapon you can smash things with and also throw (once unlocked). Planet hopping, with movement upgrades forcing the occasional backtrack to access new sections. Environmental puzzles. Galaxy threatening story line.

It's all there!

...

Where's my new Ratchet and Clank game?!

Hey all! I had originally planned to make this my holiday break game but I couldn't resist the hype any longer and finally put some time into the game this past weekend.

Here's my trajectory so far:

Main Menu: Yeah, I've played some Souls and Bloodborne and even finished Nioh. Let's do Jedi Master. I got this!

Prologue: Oh man, I'm really liking the cutscene direction, the acting and dialog and overall set up. It's all on point so far.

Jedi Vault Mission: Oooh, yeah I'm also liking their level design. I'm getting slight Dark Forces 2 vibes with the expansiveness and exploration. Digging it! Oh look another secret area...

Jedi Vault Mission (still): F--CKKKK YOOOOO, FROG!!!!!

With the god-awful load times I probably spent over an hour learning how to slay that first frog. I'm stubborn but figured it was still a decent investment into the game to learn the combat mechanics well.

Am I the only person that died to that frog, came back, slashed him to get my experience back, and then fled and decided to come back another day at a higher level?

ccesarano wrote:

Am I the only person that died to that frog, came back, slashed him to get my experience back, and then fled and decided to come back another day at a higher level?

I 100% did.

and oh did i enjoy coming back to him with a full suite of force powers later, let me tell you.

Tyrian wrote:

I think it would have been improved with the player having been able to create their character rather than forcing a specific archetype, but I get that they didn't want to record a second set of dialogue (I assume from the mocap and costs associated therewith?). As someone else commented, Cal is a generic enough name it could apply to anyone, so they shouldn't need to re-record much else.

I think the reason they didn't let you mess with the character beyond the clothes is more due to Disney wanting to reuse the character in other mediums more then due to the cost of re-recording dialog and whatnot. They did mo-cap to give the likeness of the actors playing each part, which leads me to believe we will be seeing more of these characters, maybe in the flesh.

kazar wrote:
Tyrian wrote:

I think it would have been improved with the player having been able to create their character rather than forcing a specific archetype, but I get that they didn't want to record a second set of dialogue (I assume from the mocap and costs associated therewith?). As someone else commented, Cal is a generic enough name it could apply to anyone, so they shouldn't need to re-record much else.

I think the reason they didn't let you mess with the character beyond the clothes is more due to Disney wanting to reuse the character in other mediums more then due to the cost of re-recording dialog and whatnot. They did mo-cap to give the likeness of the actors playing each part, which leads me to believe we will be seeing more of these characters, maybe in the flesh.

That's a entirely valid hypothesis. I guess depending on how sales end up being, we'll potentially see them show up in future SW property efforts.

I mean, this is an all new franchise entitled Star Wars: Jedi. Fallen Order is just the name of the first one. Sequels would likely be something like "Star Wars: Jedi: The New Order" or "The Dark Order" or whatever they come up with. Given the crossover with some of their other Disney-Extended Universe stuff, I have a feeling the new LucasArts is there for Disney to have multimedia people ensuring any video games or mobile games or whatever stick to Disney's intent for the canon from here on out.