GWJ Conference Call Episode 645

Anthem, Metro Exodus, Crackdown 3, Civilization VI: Gathering Storm, The Game Loop, Your Emails and More!

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This week Shawn, Sean Sands, Allen and Julian talk about game loops and Raph Koster's Theory of Fun.

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Comments

I was a little on the doubting side about the new Civ expansion. I have the 1st one and honestly didn't play that much of it. But Sean convinced me this one is worth trying. Thanks!

It shouldn't really matter, but I felt relieved that at least one gaming podcast I listened to has hosts who are enjoying Anthem. I don't think any of the podcasts I listen to where the hosts are not into it are hating it in bad faith or anything, but for whatever reason the negativity around the game is revealing to me that I have an inner fanboy that I have to push down every once in a while when I get mad at someone for not enjoying something I enjoy.

I share the view that I'm not too concerned about whether I'll still want to be playing this game in a few months. I've never really understood the appeal of games' having an "endgame." With Destiny, The Division, and similar, I played through the campaign and felt like I'd had a solid experience for my price of entry and moved on to the next thing. When The Division 2 beta had an endgame chunk available, I found it perplexing. It was just like a regular mission except with way more enemies, except I was also more powerful, so it didn't feel all that different. I did not get the appeal. If Anthem provides me a good 40 hours or so, I'll be very happy. If there's new content introduced a few times over the next year or so that are fun, that seems like a bonus to me.

00:01:45 Dark Souls
00:06:05 Anthem
00:31:00 Crackdown 3
00:36:50 Astroneer
00:45:14 Civilization VI: Gathering Storm
00:52:11 Metro Exodus
00:56:03 The Game Loop
01:25:28 Your Emails

I loved the question about a game that is the “best” of a particular series or world, and I thought Sean’s (?) answer of Spider-Man was an interesting one. [Was it actually Sean? I’m getting better with voices, but I still mistake Julian for other people a lot.]

I’ve been playing Spider-Man recently and I think the game conveys one thing better than any comic, cartoon, or movie: why Spider-Man is chronically late and struggles in relationships, with his work, making rent, etc. It’s one thing to see him stand someone up because of a police call; it’s another to be swinging around the city yourself, on your way to something in progress, when you hear chatter over a police channel for a burglary in progress, or a kidnapping, that’s only a couple blocks away. Whenever I play, my attention’s constantly drawn in several directions at once, and I love that.

Some more podcast recommendations ;
How Did This Get Made - NSFW sometimes live deconstructions of bad movies. Very funny
Kevin Pollack's chat shows

I really don't like Rogue-likes because I hate that feeling of losing all your progress (I realise modern rogue-likes give you incremental improvements to your start state which softens that 'You failed! Back at square one with you' feeling.) Some time ago though I realised that the spaces between each bonfire in Dark Souls are mini rogue-likes. You die over and over again in an attempt to reach the next safe spot (that you don't know the location of.) Once you make it to a new bonfire the ratchet of progress moves on and now you are in another mini rogue-like headed for the next bonfire or boss. Developers emulate a lot of elements from Dark Souls but I feel that that underlying structure might be the element that could be successfully used in other games and genres.

In related news: I couldn't have enjoyed the debut of 'Big Pilgrim' more.

Hi guys, l posted this question while watching the Twitch video of last Friday's Dark Souls stream (not live) and unfortunately it doesn't let me just copy the text. It's a question on how to equip the dang heater shield at the beginning of that game.

http://www.twitch.tv/videos/38132758...

On gameplay loops. In multiplayer I tend to like more ‘air’ in the loop than most. I don’t particularly like arena shooters (uncharted being the exception) where everyone is in a confined space and constantly in action. I prefer games like Battlefield, the original Titanfall and now Apex where there is action but also long periods of moving through the environments while anticipating action.

It was interesting hearing the Theory of Fun spelled out, and how each rule is satisfied by Battle Royale games and they still manage to be not at all fun.

I guess that’s why they call it a Theory.

As for games that are the best manifestation of a franchise, Star Wars is low hanging fruit, because the movies are all middling to bad.

(Also, Dark Knight did not break the Batman canon. The 1989 Batman movie with Michael Keaton and Jack Nicholson did. Everything else was just trying (and failing) to achieve that level of awesome, kind of like how every Kevin’s costner movie is trying to be Dances With wolves again. And before you ask, yes I have watched it recently, and it holds up. Also, anything with a soundtrack by Prince is automatically the best.)

But I’d say a great example is Hulk: Ultimate Destruction. It perfectly captures the Hulkness of classic Hulk way better than any of the Hulk movies, and gives Bill Bixby a run for his money in the surprisingly-still-watchable series from the 70s.

Papageno wrote:

Hi guys, l posted this question while watching the Twitch video of last Friday's Dark Souls stream (not live) and unfortunately it doesn't let me just copy the text. It's a question on how to equip the dang heater shield at the beginning of that game.

http://www.twitch.tv/videos/38132758...

You open your equipment screen (different from inventory screen) go to the second row there and select one of the two blank spaces. It should pop you into a screen with available shields for that slot. Select the shield.

In game then you'll press left on D-pad to cycle the left hand stuff you equiped.

Certis wrote:
Papageno wrote:

Hi guys, l posted this question while watching the Twitch video of last Friday's Dark Souls stream (not live) and unfortunately it doesn't let me just copy the text. It's a question on how to equip the dang heater shield at the beginning of that game.

http://www.twitch.tv/videos/38132758...

You open your equipment screen (different from inventory screen) go to the second row there and select one of the two blank spaces. It should pop you into a screen with available shields for that slot. Select the shield.

In game then you'll press left on D-pad to cycle the left hand stuff you equiped.

Thanks, I'll try that later. Unfortunately an elderly parent medical thing has probably eaten all of my Saturday, bUt we'll see [stupid auto-correct].

OK, managed to equip the shield, kill the asylum demon etc. but when it comes to equipping the Asylum F2 East key, I'm completely stumped. I tried the same tactic of picking the equipment slot first but none of the slots allow for a key. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. The stupid gate keeps saying it's locked. Talk about unintuitive. No wonder people give up on this game.

Papageno wrote:

OK, managed to equip the shield, kill the asylum demon etc. but when it comes to equipping the Asylum F2 East key, I'm completely stumped. I tried the same tactic of picking the equipment slot first but none of the slots allow for a key. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. The stupid gate keeps saying it's locked. Talk about unintuitive. No wonder people give up on this game.

If you have the key, the door will open. If it won't, you don't have the key

Certis wrote:
Papageno wrote:

OK, managed to equip the shield, kill the asylum demon etc. but when it comes to equipping the Asylum F2 East key, I'm completely stumped. I tried the same tactic of picking the equipment slot first but none of the slots allow for a key. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. The stupid gate keeps saying it's locked. Talk about unintuitive. No wonder people give up on this game.

If you have the key, the door will open. If it won't, you don't have the key ;)

Ah, so you're saying that key equipping at least is automatic. Thank you (and thank goodness). So what is the key you need for the gate/door in that room to the right of the balcony where you drop down on the Asylum Demon? I assumed that was openable at this point, but I guess not.

There's a very active Dark Souls thread Papageno. Everyone there is very knowledgable. Glad you are taking your first steps into the game. It's really worth giving it a go.

Watching the second Big Pilgrim stream after the fact. It's Dark Souls/comedy gold. I am fighting the urge to buy the remaster and play the game again. I have hundreds of NEW games to play for heaven's sake!

Higgledy wrote:

There's a very active Dark Souls thread Papageno. Everyone there is very knowledgable. Glad you are taking your first steps into the game. It's really worth giving it a go.

Watching the second Big Pilgrim stream after the fact. It's Dark Souls/comedy gold. I am fighting the urge to buy the remaster and play the game again. I have hundreds of NEW games to play for heaven's sake!

I couldn't resist.
Don't fight it.

But yeah, the streams are pure gold. Big Pilgrim needs to stay on this journey.

Hi,

Maybe a strange question, but do you have the parts of the game loop somewhere in print?

BR,
Marc

I have an unhealthy but valid bias against Raph Koster. It mainly stems from the reputation system in UO that scarred me greatly. (good people could do nothing while f*ck offs could destroy others and pillage untold riches all they want)

Theory of Fun be damned; to me, Raph talks to make himself sound important. He cherry picks history and his points are frequently obtuse. I've never heard him question himself which should be a major clue in game design.

Phrozbug wrote:

Hi,

Maybe a strange question, but do you have the parts of the game loop somewhere in print?

BR,
Marc

The game loop varies from game to game. Generally it is a little cycle of gameplay that people find satisfying that can be repeated with, hopefully, enough variations for an entire game. In a game like Anthem it would be: Go on a mission or missions, gather loot as you go, head back to home base, look at your loot and rewards, equip new weapons and cosmetic items then head out on another mission.

LastSurprise wrote:

[Was it actually Sean? I’m getting better with voices, but I still mistake Julian for other people a lot.]

I'm glad I'm not the only one! I'm getting better at this, but I still occasionally find myself wondering why Sean is having a back and forth with himself.

Great point that we want companions to be dogs; unconditionally loyal to us and always there ready to help us.