The GWJ CRPG Club - Game 4: Divinity: Original Sin (Complete)

I kicked this off last night.

After a couple false starts I think I have my main duo dialed in, a dual-wielding, charismatic knight type and ranged/witchcraft rascal who likes to talk to animals. So far they seem to fight a lot about duty and honor.

It seems basically impossible to fill in all the various skill areas - something needs to go by the wayside, but knowing what's going to be fun and/or useful over the game is pretty hard to gauge. It seems crucial to specialize in one fighting style in order to have enough points in the utility abilities.

I am hoping to have the time to get through this, but I suspect it's going to take me the whole of our allotted time. I'm definitely going to need some moral support. There's a lot to like here but the acts appear to be extremely long, and I am already drowning in quest log entries and random items I can't figure out how to cook or combine. I get the impression I shouldn't hoard items and just consume them to see what happens.

imbiginjapan wrote:

I am hoping to have the time to get through this, but I suspect it's going to take me the whole of our allotted time. I'm definitely going to need some moral support. There's a lot to like here but the acts appear to be extremely long, and I am already drowning in quest log entries and random items I can't figure out how to cook or combine. I get the impression I shouldn't hoard items and just consume them to see what happens.

It’s about 80 hours all told. The first area is quite large and the second act consists of 2 main areas, before things streamline down in the third a little. The combat never gets old (at least it didn’t for me) and some of the boss fights are properly challenging, without being cheap - if you know what I mean.

There is a lot to digest in it to be sure, but it does sustain itself quite well. I’m really
Looking forward to everyone’s thought and opinions as they go through the game.

Sorbicol wrote:
imbiginjapan wrote:

I am hoping to have the time to get through this, but I suspect it's going to take me the whole of our allotted time. I'm definitely going to need some moral support. There's a lot to like here but the acts appear to be extremely long, and I am already drowning in quest log entries and random items I can't figure out how to cook or combine. I get the impression I shouldn't hoard items and just consume them to see what happens.

It’s about 80 hours all told. The first area is quite large and the second act consists of 2 main areas, before things streamline down in the third a little. The combat never gets old (at least it didn’t for me) and some of the boss fights are properly challenging, without being cheap - if you know what I mean.

There is a lot to digest in it to be sure, but it does sustain itself quite well. I’m really
Looking forward to everyone’s thought and opinions as they go through the game.

I went through the other night and jotted down which things I want each character to focus on, and that helped me think that I could get at least the most important skills for the team.

I too am feeling a bit overwhelmed, not so much with information but with understanding the underlying systems, and how they integrate. I feel like it'd be easy for me to say "this is too much to sort through" but I'm going to stick with it, as I'm pretty sure it'll sort itself out after a while. I think I just have to be comfortable with ambiguity at the moment.

It has been a while since I played this but I remember that having a focused idea for each character is extremely important. Even if you don't know how everything works. Probably even especially then.

I have not played the Enhanced Edition, I don't know what has changed but you only get so many attributes points, talents and ability points (I'm sure I am misusing the terms, sorry!). You can get some extra points via books.

If you spread out too much you will be a low powered jack of all trades type and will tend to be punished in the later game. Focusing is pretty key. You will learn how the systems interlock as the game goes - I think it is one of the better parts of the game, learning how it all works together, the plot is not the star here (unless the EE fixed that). Augment holes in your abilities via the NPCs you can get. The worst that happens when you specialize is there will irritating minor things you will not be able to do, like maybe cannot open a chest that is full of trash. I think the game does a decent job of allowing for many party builds to be successful, IIRC and it has not been changed in EE, you have to kind of go out of your way to make a gimped party which requires some knowledge of how everything works to do. Or just be super unlucky.

So, I guess I am in for another fail attempt.

My take: Generalize early. Specialize after.

Get everyone 1 point in most (or all) of the skill abilities, so that they can all use Novice abilities from the entire gamut. Since abilities have cooldowns, there's a lot of power in having all of your characters with a full hotbar of abilities to choose from.

Then with everyone having a full toolkit of Novice abilities, specialize your builds.

Poking my nose into this. We'll see if I get past character creation tonight :p

Thanks for the ideas, tboon and *Legion*. If I'm not mistaken, I think I can follow both tips. They are not mutually exclusive.

Agathos wrote:

Poking my nose into this. We'll see if I get past character creation tonight :p

Awesome! The more the merrier. Character creation can be a good 40 hours, so you're pretty much halfway done if you make it past that.

Got a couple random UX questions
Is there a way to always make your characters agree? Or will you always be dealing with their dualing personalities?
I can't seem to figure out how to view potential skills for the future, only ones I currently have available. Is there some kind of traditional skill tree to look at so I can plan ahead?
Can you change your character portrait? I forgot to pick one while creating one of my characters, so it doesn't match him at all.

Yes you can just pick complimentary lines of conversations to have the PCs agree with each other. Note though that they develop different traits depending on those comments. You also still have to do the Rock Paper Scissors game with any Npc you are attempting to convince of something.

Currently I've almost cleared the first zone of stuff, with the following exceptions...

Spoiler:

- the wish granting statues to the far nw...those are first on my hit-list for the next session.
- the ruined chapel to the right of the map, where I know an annoying boss lies in wait, and a deadly fight in the graveyard with a ton of this suicide bomber skellies.
- the morticians hideaway nearby the chapel, which I can't get into because I ended up one of the components of the main murder quest, but I can find an alternative means of entry via the chapel above I think.
- the orcs in the beach area and their cave. I think they're second after the wish statues next time.
- the area its those annoying fire skeletons top middle of the map
...and then to wrap up the murder plot hopefully, at (spoilers) secret cave.

Oh, also there's the whole fairy realm place offered up by the wishing well, but I forget if I should do than now or if it's a higher level place I should avoid, so for now I'm keeping away until I clear as much of the above as possible.

OH and I forgot about the King/queen duo down at the trapped farmhouse place too! Guess they're third on my next session hitlist!

Gosh I forgot there's so much to do in this first Zone. I can certainly sympathise it being overwhelming!

I dug in a bit more with Cyseal tonight. I tried to stay focused, by working through my quests from top to bottom, and advancing them as far as I could before I got stuck. That worked pretty well, then I got distracted by a new area and spent an enjoyable 20 minutes or so exploring and fighting in there. I also spent a bit of time looking at crafting and getting a better sense for how gear works. All in all, I'm feeling less overwhelmed, and I think things are starting to come together.

I'm not making much progress with leveling yet, though. The things I'm doing just don't seem to be netting me much XP. I'm guessing that as I complete some of these quests that'll change.

I am really hoping to find a horse merchant that just sells hollowed out coconut shells.

pyxistyx wrote:

Yes you can just pick complimentary lines of conversations to have the PCs agree with each other. Note though that they develop different traits depending on those comments. You also still have to do the Rock Paper Scissors game with any Npc you are attempting to convince of something.

So for the most part, I don't tend to get an option beforehand when my two lead characters disagree. Whoever I'm controlling will get a dialog option, and the other will just respond, which leads right into the RPS game. I'm starting to suspect I left an AI personality option chosen in character creation and that's screwing up my game. Maybe it's time to restart.

beanman101283 wrote:
pyxistyx wrote:

Yes you can just pick complimentary lines of conversations to have the PCs agree with each other. Note though that they develop different traits depending on those comments. You also still have to do the Rock Paper Scissors game with any Npc you are attempting to convince of something.

So for the most part, I don't tend to get an option beforehand when my two lead characters disagree. Whoever I'm controlling will get a dialog option, and the other will just respond, which leads right into the RPS game. I'm starting to suspect I left an AI personality option chosen in character creation and that's screwing up my game. Maybe it's time to restart.

When I've gotten those prompts so far, they've gone like this for me:

1. Lead (controlled) character has a choice.
2. Second character can agree or disagree.
3. Back to the lead character -- they can either go along with character #2 ("fine, have it your way"), or they get to pick one of three ways to persuade character #2. I think those are intimidate, charm, and reason.
4. Back to the second character. At this point, they can either go along with character #1, or pick from the same intimidate / charm / reason options.

Then I get to rock / paper / scissors, and it seems that the choice of intimidate / charm / reason matters: if an intimidating character picks the intimidating option, for instance, she will generate more points from a single round of RPS and will need fewer rounds, overall, to win.

Is that similar to what you're seeing?

1. Lead character has a choice
2. Second character will agree or disagree (I get no option to choose here)
3. In case second character disagrees, lead character can go along with them, or pick one of the three persuade options
4. RPS game starts (I assume this means the persuade option didn't work, based on your explanation)

sounds like the AI is active for one of them then, yeah.

LastSurprise wrote:

Then I get to rock / paper / scissors, and it seems that the choice of intimidate / charm / reason matters: if an intimidating character picks the intimidating option, for instance, she will generate more points from a single round of RPS and will need fewer rounds, overall, to win.

Is that similar to what you're seeing?

Oh, I've only seen it a handful of times, but I was thinking the amount of pips generated had something to do with character level. But now that you mention it, there must be something else involved (too?), as the number of pips the two main characters generate each round differs in different contests, even though they are the same level.

I did run into a rock/paper/scissors matchup against an NPC where they got a ridiculous amount of pips for one round. They beat me with wins in two rock/paper/scissors rounds, but it was 3/4 full after one.

Thanks to the gog sale, I'm in on this too.

Snuck in a quick hour this afternoon. I still have a bit of the thread to catch up on but my initial impression was suprise at how ingrained the infinity engine UI and controls are for me in this style of game. The movment here works like so many ARPG but somehow feels like a dramatic change and the ability to move objects around is going to take some adjusting too.

One thing that stands out to me in this game, and I haven't seen it mentioned much lately but it was when it first came out, is just how much of the spirit of Ultima VII resides within this game. It's not just the opening murder-mystery (although that's part of it), almost the entire construction of the game feels like an homage to me. Love that!

Godzilla Blitz wrote:
LastSurprise wrote:

Then I get to rock / paper / scissors, and it seems that the choice of intimidate / charm / reason matters: if an intimidating character picks the intimidating option, for instance, she will generate more points from a single round of RPS and will need fewer rounds, overall, to win.

Is that similar to what you're seeing?

Oh, I've only seen it a handful of times, but I was thinking the amount of pips generated had something to do with character level. But now that you mention it, there must be something else involved (too?), as the number of pips the two main characters generate each round differs in different contests, even though they are the same level.

I did run into a rock/paper/scissors matchup against an NPC where they got a ridiculous amount of pips for one round. They beat me with wins in two rock/paper/scissors rounds, but it was 3/4 full after one.

Discussion of the process here. If what he says really came to frution, intuiting the context of the situation and the stats involved matters in terms of the effectiveness of charm/reason/intimidate.
If this works as described, "gaming" the system might be tough because the contextual factors have an impact, and you can't rely on your highest stats every time.

https://youtu.be/tIpfydUsaNw?t=1550

Godzilla Blitz wrote:
LastSurprise wrote:

Then I get to rock / paper / scissors, and it seems that the choice of intimidate / charm / reason matters: if an intimidating character picks the intimidating option, for instance, she will generate more points from a single round of RPS and will need fewer rounds, overall, to win.

Is that similar to what you're seeing?

Oh, I've only seen it a handful of times, but I was thinking the amount of pips generated had something to do with character level. But now that you mention it, there must be something else involved (too?), as the number of pips the two main characters generate each round differs in different contests, even though they are the same level.

I did run into a rock/paper/scissors matchup against an NPC where they got a ridiculous amount of pips for one round. They beat me with wins in two rock/paper/scissors rounds, but it was 3/4 full after one.

I'm not sure, but I think the pips have to do with skills, or traits, or whatever they're called. The first time I played out a RPS battle between my characters, my fighter picked a "reason" option, and my mage picked a "charm" option, and she (the fighter) got 2 pips per success to his 3. The numbers "two" and "three" were also clearly marked, and I after seeing a few rounds I inferred these were the number of pips each would gain from a win. I checked their character sheets after, and my mage had some personality characteristic that boosted his charm. But she didn't have anything that boosted reasoning, as far as I could tell.

Level could be a factor. These two were at the same level when arguing with each other, but who knows how it works with a higher level NPC.

With four or five hours played, it's interesting how it seems like I've both done a lot, and done very little. There is so much flexibility to the mechanical interactions, that what might seem like a big deal in another RPG (putting out the flames of a burning ship) is just a matter of, in my case, double clicking a scroll in my inventory and casting the spell like normal. I got a ton of XP for it, but there was no bespoke, drawn out cutscene. It was just a thing I did. I discovered I could use two of my party members to initiate conversations with guards, distracting them, while a third party member sneaks around opening locks and taking everything in sight. That's more memorable than the "story" so far. That flexibility is pretty cool, and I'm not sure how common that is in other RPGs of this style.

You can, through some of your responses and interactions in the game earn points in the traits of Charm, Intimidate and Reason. The more pips you have in those compared to the person you are debating against, the more you’ll fill you meter when you win a round of RPS.

However, the game doesn’t really spell out what traits you have points in, nor the person you are debating against. I found it was a good idea in principle but wanting in implementation.

As others have said I never had a problem getting the tow main characters to agree, and interactions with NPCs needing that mechanic - well there were quite a few in act 1 but they rapidly dwindled off as the game progressed (at least, I think they did. Maybe I just avoided those situations) and I never felt it was too much of an issue.

pyxistyx wrote:

Currently I've almost cleared the first zone of stuff

Too fast. I think you need to install a SlowMoveSpeed mod.

oh there's still a lot i haven't cleared yet so i'm not out of the woods yet.

(of course, that means everyone ELSE has a ton of stuff to clear yet, too )

I believe I own this on PS4. It's always seemed quite daunting, much more so than Pillars of Eternity, which took some time to find a rhythm with.

I shall at least give it a go. It's the spirit of our club after all. I didn't know I'd love Dragonfall, or Pillars, as much as I did.

RnRClown wrote:

I believe I own this on PS4. It's always seemed quite daunting, much more so than Pillars of Eternity, which took some time to find a rhythm with.

I shall at least give it a go. It's the spirit of our club after all. I didn't know I'd love Dragonfall, or Pillars, as much as I did.

Most excellent! Glad you're giving it a shot.

Made a bit more progress...

Spoiler:

- dealt with the wish-giving stone heads
- dealt with the orcs on the beach and cleared most of the pirate cave just beyond...although i think there's a blood stone in there that i'm missing so i'll probably need to give it another check.

Everyone is now some way into level 8 with none too shabby gear. Combat is starting to get a lot more manageable.

Next up...tackling the chapel to the top-right of the map!

I got in another 45 minutes or so this evening meandering about the first area. I also spent a decent amount of time figuring out skills, and made a major discovery: the Skills Menu! (press k). Who knew!?!

I swapped out my archer henchmen for a rogue I ran into, as I was getting annoyed at not being able to pick easy chests and doors yet.

I also took another big step forward in solving the mystery. Things are starting to clear up there.

Random questions...

If someone's characters are all still Level 3, and they have been playing for more than 7 hours, are they doing something wrong? Is that incredibly lame, even though they may have spent a couple hours of that time looking stuff up instead of actively playing? Asking for a friend.

Is there any sort of resurrection penalty? Asking for a friend again.

Is there any disadvantage to swapping out henchmen? I noticed when I added the rogue, he gained 3k plus in XP, which seemed to bring him right up to the level of everyone else in my party. Does that happen each time you swap out members, so that you can essentially mix and max without gimping their character advancement?

I can say that any sense of being overwhelmed is starting to sort itself out more now, and I'm enjoying myself again. Coming to grips with some of the systems and how things connect to each other has been a big help.

- the gap between level 3 and 4 is the point where i noted getting a bit frustrated above, it's the point where you've pretty much cleared everything in town and need to start pushing out into the wilderness (the area to the west en-route to the lighthouse is probably your best bet). So you aren't doing anything wrong, it seems to be a problem on the game's end (imo). Once you hit level 4 though, it get's easier to survive outside the town and things start ramping back up again.

- No penalty for resurrection

- I don't think there's any penalty for swapping henchmen at all, but i generally just stick with the warrior and the archer.

Godzilla Blitz wrote:

Random questions...

If someone's characters are all still Level 3, and they have been playing for more than 7 hours, are they doing something wrong? Is that incredibly lame, even though they may have spent a couple hours of that time looking stuff up instead of actively playing? Asking for a friend.

Is there any sort of resurrection penalty? Asking for a friend again.

Is there any disadvantage to swapping out henchmen? I noticed when I added the rogue, he gained 3k plus in XP, which seemed to bring him right up to the level of everyone else in my party. Does that happen each time you swap out members, so that you can essentially mix and max without gimping their character advancement?

I can say that any sense of being overwhelmed is starting to sort itself out more now, and I'm enjoying myself again. Coming to grips with some of the systems and how things connect to each other has been a big help.

As Pyxistyx says about really - level 3 is about the time you need to start thinking about heading out of town. Head West (more or less) towards the light house and you'll be challenged but OK - This is where the game really starts to play around with the environmental effects (it's raining, there are toxic waste buckets lying around for no discernible reason) and you start leveling up with some regularity.

There is no penalty to resurrection beyond the cost of the scrolls. You'll need a steady supply

Finally, the "penalty" to swapping companions in and out is mostly what skills they'll have available. I have to say that once I'd settled on my 4 (the 2 source hunters and 2 companions) during that first exploration phase, I didn't change them again.