Pathfinder: Kingmaker

TBH, you don't have to wait for interesting loot to theory craft.
There are so many interesting feats that are fun to experiment whether they work on a class build or a few level dips. Like I was saying about the kineticist; if you choose the water element, you get a defensive power that is +4 armor to start (and goes up 1 every 2 kin levels I believe) or acts as a +2 shield. It does not stack with actual armor so it is best used without armor or as a shield with armor.

You can get a sneak attack die from a rogue, stalker, vivisectionist level and get another from the feat improved(?) sneak attack. And you see how the rabbit hole gets found...

accomplished sneak attacker i think?

That feat is also the key to Olivias (or protagonists) one rogue level Arcane trickster build that still gets access to 9th level spells at the end of the day (i think i'd prefer the build on a protagonist simply because I don't like the specialization Olivia picked)

Oh i got to the end of the game and realized i had completely f*cked myself because (spoiler for the last chapter of the game)

Spoiler:

i made Linzi my dedicated trap finder and lock picker because i never ever went without her because a: bard song bonusus are awesome and b: shes writting my book, how can she get the good parts right if shes not there to see it?!

so... in the final chapter, she is unavoidably killed by the plot in an area slap full of traps and locked chests so i was stuck there with only olivia sub-par rogue skills (because i was building her as a wizard w sneak attack not a skill monkey)

I am not 100% sure how it works but taking a level of a class that gives you a pet and then choosing leopard (crazy high dex pet) will give you a dex boost for skill checks. I am not sure whether it just works for you main character or whether it will work for your party too.

Bfgp wrote:

For my part, the issue is the duration of the mutagen and whether the build generates enough damage to offset the lower base attack bonus and number of attacks a TWF knife master / martial class can pump out at 3 attacks per weapon.

Each time new loot enters my stash I'm looking at it wondering how I can tweak or create a new build. I think that's the magic of this game.

Bfgp is accurate, on both counts. For individuals eyeing the game, being able to hit, especially late game and on some difficulties to overcome defense, is of critical concern. Multiclass P:K build viability is effectively capped relative to how much Base Attack Bonus and Attack Bonus (hereafter: AB/BAB) one can squeeze in.. OR can your team effectively suppress defense or boost accuracy enough to compensate. For the most part though, AB/BAB is king. I suppose there needs to be an [arguable] reason to play a stock fighter, yes* ?

However, a saving grace: the better loot in P:K is rather creative; not all of it the standard + 1 , +2 ad nauseam. As such, the right piece of armor, or ~ trinket [not proper term but lets roll with this as multi slots], or weapon might prove enough to flip the table and keep your favorite build viable.
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* This is one element I've learned to really admire (steady incline) about PoE2: the way stats scale and can appreciably offset base class deficiencies in multiclass combos, also how multiple stats tend to fill in for checks. Might: martial AND magic damage plus healing potency [+fort]; Con: HP [+fort] ; Perception: scaling accuracy, also frequent in dialogue [+reflex]; Intelligence: AoE and ability duration [+will] and common dialogue opts; Resolve: deflection and -[N] dur of hostile effect [+will]; Dex: scaling speed of action (most animations) and stride [+reflex].

I'm disappointed you didn't call it BAB/AB, because that sounds much funnier when spoken.

Isn't BAB/AB just B?

Spoiler:

BAB/AB = B(AB/AB) = B(1) = B

Building Valerie as a Stalwart Defender and prioritizing AC-raising items for her makes her the most resilient member of the party by far. I've had a number of times where the rest of the party has been KOed and she's prevailed against an entire room of enemies because they can't hit her. Her current level 17 AC is 58.

Spells though

Made it past uh Act 4? Just finished the dungeon where the set fight nets you a +5 bastard sword.

Well, that 40k gold I just spent testing a crit Falcata TWF Amiri build? Spent another 50k gold to put her back as a THF/BARB

I'm pleased with the build I've got for my MC. Her AC is nowhere near Valeri (she's up in the low 40s pre-buffs) but I've got her 3 saves at around 19. Not bad for an off-tank!

Oh and I finally discovered what else gold should be spent on - buying build points for the kingdom. It made that part of the game slightly less odious.

Also, what happens after you finish the main story? Do you just sit there improving your kingdom? It kind of reminds me of the Fighter's Keep in BG2 except on a grander scale.

fangblackbone wrote:

Isn't BAB/AB just B?

Spoiler:

BAB/AB = B(AB/AB) = B(1) = B

Love the spoiler joke! Totally different angle, but the audible version of: "Ah, ba ba ba ba Barbara Ann" [...] is the first oddity that zipped through my head.

/old

I'm up to the final dungeon. Man, they totally cranked up the difficulty. I find myself buffing up to the nines in every skirmish. I did however cheese the system a little by bringing 200 rations (32 rests), plus spare scrolls of resurrection and greater restoration. So I can take my sweet time burning through spells then resting straight afterwards but it's a bit of a slog so I might turn the difficulty to story mode so I can move on after finishing the main story.

A bit bummed though, the game is really buggy. I hope the next iteration is a bit better in that regard but otherwise it has been pretty fun.

thrawn82 wrote:

accomplished sneak attacker i think?

That feat is also the key to Olivias (or protagonists) one rogue level Arcane trickster build that still gets access to 9th level spells at the end of the day (i think i'd prefer the build on a protagonist simply because I don't like the specialization Olivia picked)

Oh i got to the end of the game and realized i had completely f*cked myself because (spoiler for the last chapter of the game)

Spoiler:

i made Linzi my dedicated trap finder and lock picker because i never ever went without her because a: bard song bonusus are awesome and b: shes writting my book, how can she get the good parts right if shes not there to see it?!

so... in the final chapter, she is unavoidably killed by the plot in an area slap full of traps and locked chests so i was stuck there with only olivia sub-par rogue skills (because i was building her as a wizard w sneak attack not a skill monkey)

I realized I had screwed myself by

Spoiler:

Not researching nearly enough curses. In truth, I screwed up the whole kingdom management angle pretty badly - next time through I'll definitely do a better job with that. By the time I'd internalized some of the intricacies, I was already behind.

Yikes that doesn't bode well for my kingdom because I didn't research any

Spoiler:

cursse

. Damn maybe that reroll and restart is warranted...

Timespike wrote:
thrawn82 wrote:

accomplished sneak attacker i think?

That feat is also the key to Olivias (or protagonists) one rogue level Arcane trickster build that still gets access to 9th level spells at the end of the day (i think i'd prefer the build on a protagonist simply because I don't like the specialization Olivia picked)

Oh i got to the end of the game and realized i had completely f*cked myself because (spoiler for the last chapter of the game)

Spoiler:

i made Linzi my dedicated trap finder and lock picker because i never ever went without her because a: bard song bonusus are awesome and b: shes writting my book, how can she get the good parts right if shes not there to see it?!

so... in the final chapter, she is unavoidably killed by the plot in an area slap full of traps and locked chests so i was stuck there with only olivia sub-par rogue skills (because i was building her as a wizard w sneak attack not a skill monkey)

I realized I had screwed myself by

Spoiler:

Not researching nearly enough curses. In truth, I screwed up the whole kingdom management angle pretty badly - next time through I'll definitely do a better job with that. By the time I'd internalized some of the intricacies, I was already behind.

I followed some recommendations and set kingdom difficult to easy but not automatic (some events don't happen on automatic) so that basically i had to pay enough attention to solve the problems and grab some oppotunities, but my kingdom wasn't going to fail because of bad dice rolls out of my control.

I YouTube'd the end and I think I'm going to switch to another "big" game for a bit. Whether I get one more run in or wait until WotR comes out remains to be seen.

Has anyone tried the new DE version yet?

There isn't anything special about it other than it is on the PS4 and includes all DLC, right?

fangblackbone wrote:

There isn't anything special about it other than it is on the PS4 and includes all DLC, right?

Is this the update that adds integrated turn based?

Yes, that too but your mileage may vary. As cool as it is, i shudder to think what going through an entire campaign in turn based mode would be like. We might have the COVID vaccine by then...

fangblackbone wrote:

Yes, that too but your mileage may vary. As cool as it is, i shudder to think what going through an entire campaign in turn based mode would be like. We might have the COVID vaccine by then...

I actually restarted a game using the turn based mod and i enjoyed it quite a bit more than the RTWP. I don;t know if integrated has the on off switch that the mod does, which helps for breezing through rofflestomp battles, but i think the heart of the issue is the game tries very hard to follow the Pathfinder ruleset faithfully, and the pathfinder ruleset is really really reliant on a turn based structure to function properly.

A bit disappointing there isn't more new stuff. Well, other than a thousand bug fixes, which I guess is noteworthy. The game certainly needed bugfixes...
Have been planning to revisit the game, but postponed it when I saw the DE was coming.

Ok so let's ask the hive mind.

I've picked this up on something of a whim, and while I'm a cRPG veteran (you name it, I've probably played it) I know nothing about the Pathfinder system.

The basic questions are: Any particular build easiest for a beginner at this? I'm thinking either wizard or fighter because I hardly ever play a cRPG as either, and fancy something a little different in this (I usually RPG as a hero too - I'd like to be someone a little more ambivalent for this, mostly out for themselves. It's an attitude that seems to fit our current times) that going for the "best" beginner class (who invariably turns out to be a ranger)

Is a wizardy fighter a viable build? Someone who hits hard(ish) and uses magic to buff their attacks / debuff enemies? Does duel classing work or is it just worth focusing on a single class first time through? I know the wizard / fighter thing is usually a little more complex to balance right but just wondered if Pathfinder supports that well.

and advice gratefully received.

You could play as a Magus I believe. Which is essentially a wizard/fighter that uses their sword to strike spells into their opponents, sort of.

It's a bit of an advanced class.

Honestly, you'll be controlling every single one of your party members, so you're forced to learn just about every class.

I don't remember, is there AI that is 'good enough' that you can set party members on autopilot of playing and leveling and you don't have to manager them except for choosing who to come with you? My complaint with these games is I don't want to control a party, I want to control a person and make personal decisions and let the party grow around me and interact with 'me'.

LeapingGnome wrote:

I don't remember, is there AI that is 'good enough' that you can set party members on autopilot of playing and leveling and you don't have to manager them except for choosing who to come with you? My complaint with these games is I don't want to control a party, I want to control a person and make personal decisions and let the party grow around me and interact with 'me'.

If you keep the difficulty at the standard or nudge it down a notch, I think it is very possible to play this way. I played on standard and had to micromanage my arcane archer PC, but mostly I let my companions run amok with minimal guidance. To the game's credit I did start learning how to use and build other classes, even with only passive engagement.

I think it depends on your difficulty level and your opponents. For your random encounters, sure. But I remember there being some tough fights every now and then where if you didn't know what you were doing with almost everyone, you were going down.

I've always been a full Pathfinder tabletop nerd, so I thoroughly enjoyed leveling everyone up. But I completely agree with you regarding not wanting to do that, or having to play each character.

I *think* if you put it on the lower difficulty, you could get away with just playing your main character.

Just a hint...
Lowly spider swarms can wipe your party if you are unprepared. Thankfully you start off with torches in your inventory. (and I am pretty sure fire and acid cantrips work well too)

As far as beginner classes, any of the pet classes add a damage soaker that can dish it out as well. They even get things like trip and extra attacks as they level with you.

Barbarian is pretty straightforward for a melee fighter and rage is a buff system that isn't overly complex. Oh and the mad dog subclass gives you a pet. I know you want to play melee but I will also add that dual wielding javelins (throwing) is very fun.

Thieves and all their subclasses are a ton of fun. The arcane subclass gives you wizard spells too.

In fact, I think I will just start to list non beginner classes: monk (more multistat and equipment dependent), magus (cool concepts but not straightforward), fighters (other than tower shield spec perhaps, I found them bland), stalker (essentially a ranger that trades the pet for sneak attack, I found only useful for taking 2-3 levels in multiclassing), alchemist (great class and vivisectionist rules but might be a little complex)

The thing about druids... They are all over the place but if you stick to a role (shapeshifting/healing/summoning/nuking) they are quite effective and can be played simply. If you pick no subclass, you get a pet. You can also pick a subclass with the animal domain and get a pet at level 4. (several of the classes with domains can get pets this way)

Sorcerors have one of the easiest ways to be extremely powerful at higher levels. They are a primary foundation for the Dragon Disciple than went self buffed turns you into a literal melee monster, (dragon form) able to go toe to toe with bosses.

Okay so this game I found you have to do the mega buff thing before each battle. Damage mitigation by dropping the opposition is better than trying to outheal them.

Problem is, if you specc too much of a damage dealer you might not last long enough to crank out the damage. There's much to be said about being tanky.

I think magus is hard to play at the start. Thieves do huge damage (especially if you can outflank an opponent) but also don't forget that being able to hit things means anything swinging a weapon around cannot stray too far into multi classing.

The basic questions are: Any particular build easiest for a beginner at this?

Kingmaker is super combat focused, and all your builds need to be oriented around combat if you want to survive. Every mook you meet, even supposed low-level scrubs, will be perfectly optimized to be as dangerous as possible. This is not a game for people who aren't willing to at least look up builds online, even if you don't understand them yourself.

The difficulty level used to be insane; they detuned it a bit to be merely extremely difficult, and only after massive player complaints. Every time your game ends prematurely, someone at that company does a little happy dance.

It's a full-time position.

I’ve been wandering around the opening area and yeah, that’s become quite evident although I’m playing on Normal, and with only one or two exceptions it’s been not too bad. But it’s evidently all about the combat with the added RNG of the dice rolls adding to the entertainment. I like some of the ideas in it - the camping system (lifted as it is from the expedition series) is a good idea and a good way of managing fatigue, and the little story book system that makes some of the skills more meaningful.

Other are a little questionable I think. I get the idea of those spider swarms fine, but alchemical fire having a super accurate ‘hit’ chance? Maybe it’s me but I wouldn’t expect a Molotov cocktail to need to be that precise. Those little sh*ts caused more than one restart!

In the end I went with a knife master rogue - I didn’t really see any fighter / wizard builds that really appealed - but not sure that’s really necessary given your companions at the start. I seem to be very light in the ranged combat / magic department.