Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice Catch-All

This is a mechanic borrowed from Bloodborne. If you pick up an item, the icon pops on the right side of the screen. If it looks normal, you're now carrying it. If it has a green arrow on it, it's in storage.

I also experience the game not responding to a button sometimes, but that happens in all games. Always just assumed it was controllers being bad - and/or user error.
With grappling it seems quite sensitive to movement while in the air. Same with stealth attacks.

Also yeah, the enemy attack tracking is really bad on some bosses. Unlike in Dark Souls it might be by design here, to make dodge less useful. Still feels bad when a boss teleport around itself though.

Enemies track in this game deliberately - you are supposed to deflect, not dodge. Super accurate tracking is your punishment for trying to play this like Dark Souls.

Also, this game is not purely animation-priority like Souls games. You can cancel a lot of animations with a block, including getting knocked around and staggered. Spam your blocks. At worst, you will block and take no damage. At best, the game will register it as well-timed, and you'll deflect.

Sure, it certainly seems intended. Doesnt make it good though. Teleporting enemies feel silly.
In all likelihood there also was an intent behind it in Dark Souls 2, combined with that game tying immunity frames to a stat.

NSMike wrote:

Also, this game is not purely animation-priority like Souls games. You can cancel a lot of animations with a block, including getting knocked around and staggered. Spam your blocks. At worst, you will block and take no damage. At best, the game will register it as well-timed, and you'll deflect.

Which is interesting in relation to the talk pre-release on how Sekiro was closer to action games like DMC. Random button spam, hoping for the best, is my biased view in those games. So I guess the people saying the game would be much more like those games were right
However it sounds like NG+ starts to severely punish you for blocking attacks.

I'm not sure exactly how they enforce the kind of combat they were trying to make if they didn't make enemy tracking that much tighter. Unless you think the combat system is bad overall, I don't know how you can apply a "bad" value judgment specifically to enemies tracking. If they didn't, dodging would be much more effective and it would change the combat system dramatically.

I might even advise you to just... replay a Soulsborne game at that point.

So is it best to just take on a mini boss and learn the play style over and over for training? I have sh*t for stats anyway right now and am fairly early on so I might as well train on a boss and restart if I need to.

I suggest exhausting your training options on the guy by the temple, first. Minibosses are going to have different and more complex movesets, for sure, and you're going to have to learn them, but at least you can get a feel for what you're trying to accomplish while training without doing harm to your own skill advancement in the training arena.

I dont know how they would do it either. But I'm not their designer.
Could add back the stamina bar, but only for dodging. Give you a dmg penalty for a short while after a dodge. Or something else.

I think it is fair to call it bad when enemies "teleport" (like those instant 90 degree turns) into an attack position - or you get teleported back into their grabbing attack. It just feels wrong when it happens.
It is entirely fine that the attacks track you, to a certain degree, and in this game most animations make it seem fluid. I'm nearly through the game, and have only seen, what I consider to be bad tracking on like 2-3 bosses - most often it is from the grab attacks, but that is probably just because the animations of fast weapon swings makes it easier to hide.

Hobear wrote:

So is it best to just take on a mini boss and learn the play style over and over for training? I have sh*t for stats anyway right now and am fairly early on so I might as well train on a boss and restart if I need to.

Not a bad idea to train on a boss. But on the other hand, if you can kill said boss, it might not the be the best training object anymore.
The death penalty in this game is pretty low anyway, so it isn't like you lose much by training as needed. Just make sure you lvled up/spent your gold before doing a new boss.

There are plenty of ways and plenty of action games that have ways of making dodge less useful without having to have such bullsh*t tracking as demonstrated in the video I linked. I used to shout as a child that "the game cheats" whenever I wasn't doing well. Turns out, I was right in terms of Mario Kart's rubber-banding A.I. This sort of "tracking" is similar. It's not good design intended to prevent the player from spamming the dodge. If anything it is reminiscent of children arguing. "I shot my bullets and they hit you!" "No they didn't, I jumped out of the way!" "My bullets can turn in mid-air!" Only now the argument ends. Yes, it turns out your bullets can, in fact, turn in mid-air.

Even in this game it's clear dodge won't help you each time. There are regular enemy attacks with wide enough arcs or long enough ranges that you'll still get hit despite dodging, but the enemy remains facing the same position. Or, if you wanted dodging to be less useful, you make it slower, or give it a long recovery time (hello Darksiders, nice to reference you again). There's a number of ways to do better.

I recommend everyone in here load up Devil May Cry 3, start on Devil Hunter difficulty, and tell me how long you last spamming buttons against Cerberus, the first real boss of the game. Somehow, spamming the dodge button won't help you survive that guy, and yet he doesn't have bullsh*t tracking.

That is not a design decision to defend. I understand if you like the game, but there are some design decisions that are just bad. That is one of them, because it means the developer is taking artificial shortcuts to make their game harder.

Bullsh*t tracking is a trademark of every FROM Soulsborne game.. it would be criminal of them to change that at this point.

I'm actually quite happy with how the combat feels.

JeremyK wrote:

I'm actually quite happy with how the combat feels.

BUT HAVE YOU PLAYED DEVIL MAY CRY? Gotta play Devil May Cry if you want to have an opinion here.

Hey.

If everyone else can inject Dark Souls into every game thread ever, then it's just karma that I bring up DMC or Darksiders whenever I can.

Revenge is mine etc. etc.

This is the DMC of Sekiro threads. Mindless button spam everywhere.
Nah, it doesn't work as well.

DMC & Darksiders are the cassettes to DarkSouls Vinyl......Puts on Hipster glasses and tophat.

Hobear wrote:

DMC & Darksiders are the cassettes to DarkSouls Vinyl......Puts on Hipster glasses and tophat.

DMC I will grant you as having value in a conversation. Darksiders is just rubbish. It's the cassette tape of NOW That's What I Call Music! that your cat unspooled and dragged around on the dirty tile. Bad versions of the greatest hits of better things.

ClockworkHouse wrote:
Hobear wrote:

DMC & Darksiders are the cassettes to DarkSouls Vinyl......Puts on Hipster glasses and tophat.

DMC I will grant you as having value in a conversation. Darksiders is just rubbish. It's the cassette tape of NOW That's What I Call Music! that your cat unspooled and dragged around on the dirty tile. Bad versions of the greatest hits of better things.

Darksiders is every Depeche Mode album from the 90s?

Tip: Before heading out to fight a boss or entering any suspicious area, spend all your money on purchasing items or spirit emblems. That way you're not losing all your cash when you inevitably die, over, and over, and OVER again...

ClockworkHouse wrote:
Hobear wrote:

DMC & Darksiders are the cassettes to DarkSouls Vinyl......Puts on Hipster glasses and tophat.

DMC I will grant you as having value in a conversation. Darksiders is just rubbish. It's the cassette tape of NOW That's What I Call Music! that your cat unspooled and dragged around on the dirty tile. Bad versions of the greatest hits of better things.

Oh so it's an 8 track.

JC wrote:

Tip: Before heading out to fight a boss or entering any suspicious area, spend all your money on purchasing items or spirit emblems. That way you're not losing all your cash when you inevitably die, over, and over, and OVER again...

Yes I learned this lesson early on when I blew through a bunch of money at Lady Butterfly.

I must need to go back and work a different area, that drunk keeps killing me in no time. The 2 trash mobs around him really get me, not a great way to deal with them that I have found beyond luring everyone and then I get traunced with the mini boss drunk. I'll go work the regular area after the shrine and try something else. first.
Not sure what the issue is right now, well, actually it's probably me. I probably suck at the game

Hobear wrote:

I must need to go back and work a different area, that drunk keeps killing me in no time. The 2 trash mobs around him really get me, not a great way to deal with them that I have found beyond luring everyone and then I get traunced with the mini boss drunk. I'll go work the regular area after the shrine and try something else. first.
Not sure what the issue is right now, well, actually it's probably me. I probably suck at the game :-)

Spoiler:

You can kill the adds, run away, and he will reset. This strat also works to get him to turn around and stealth hit him

JeremyK wrote:
JC wrote:

Tip: Before heading out to fight a boss or entering any suspicious area, spend all your money on purchasing items or spirit emblems. That way you're not losing all your cash when you inevitably die, over, and over, and OVER again...

Yes I learned this lesson early on when I blew through a bunch of money at Lady Butterfly.

It might seem nonsensical at first, because they cost more than they give, but buy the coin purses from the vendors. They cost 10% more than they give, but it's essentially saving the money that you're carrying for a 10% fee.

Obviously, don't pop coin purses to buy them - then you're just spending to lose money. This is only for money you collect in the game world.

I did buy the few coin purses I saw at vendors but seems like they have limited stock.

ccesarano wrote:

That is not a design decision to defend. I understand if you like the game, but there are some design decisions that are just bad. That is one of them, because it means the developer is taking artificial shortcuts to make their game harder.

This is my thought as well. From seems to have gotten lazy on this one. The insta-teleporting mobs are one problem, and the idiotic dragonrot crap when you die is another. They both seem like gimmicks put into the game just to make it harder. I’m sure this was done to appease the people who spend all day every day playing a game when it releases, only to complain it’s not hard enough because they beat it in a single weekend.

I have to be honest that although I really do enjoy the game, it’s the first From Software title that I’ve actually contemplated returning. The Souls/Bloodborne series always seemed difficult but fair, this one by contrast just seems blatantly unfair as part of the overall design. It’s clear from the twitter video that the game is outright cheating. The damn ogre teleported from one position to another just to make that grapple, if that’s not the AI cheating to make the game more challenging then I don’t know what is. The fact that they basically did away with having stats and different sets of gear is also a major turn off for me. Oh great, I get to wear the same armor and use the same sword for the entire game. Wonderful.

When it works it really excels at making you feel like a bad ass ninja, but the frustration gets in the way more often than not. I didn’t even mention the wishy-washy way the deflections and stealth kills are handled. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don’t. I can understand I’m probably off on the deflecting, but the stealth kills are a real head scratcher to me. I think this might be the first From game that I don’t finish.

I just assume I'm bad at deflections the same way I was with parrying in Dark Souls games. I haven't had an issue with stealth kills not working though. Can't think of a single instance where it didn't work as designed for me.

Dragonrot is nearly meaningless, you get enough cures that it should not be a problem. Just only cure everyone when you really need it.
Not that being pointless is exactly an argument in its favor.
I think it makes for a nice story aspect though, seeing everyone around you getting sick. It is a bit weird it is only the NPCs - not sure if it is explained? Could have been fun to meet bosses who had gotten sick from dragonrot.

Shadout wrote:

Dragonrot is nearly meaningless, you get enough cures that it should not be a problem. Just only cure everyone when you really need it.
Not that being pointless is exactly an argument in its favor.
I think it makes for a nice story aspect though, seeing everyone around you getting sick. It is a bit weird it is only the NPCs - not sure if it is explained? Could have been fun to meet bosses who had gotten sick from dragonrot.

It barely counts as explaination, but one of the loading screen tidbits mentions it afflicts those who have "had dealings with the Wolf." I took that to mean that it doesn't just afflict people at random, but rather only people you know.

Hobear wrote:

I must need to go back and work a different area, that drunk keeps killing me in no time. The 2 trash mobs around him really get me, not a great way to deal with them that I have found beyond luring everyone and then I get traunced with the mini boss drunk. I'll go work the regular area after the shrine and try something else. first.
Not sure what the issue is right now, well, actually it's probably me. I probably suck at the game :-)

Spoiler:

There's an NPC that will help you that is standing beside a rock as you exit the water.

ccesarano wrote:

That is not a design decision to defend. I understand if you like the game, but there are some design decisions that are just bad. That is one of them, because it means the developer is taking artificial shortcuts to make their game harder.

Even though people are pointing out that having Souls experience is a detriment, as primarily a Souls player coming to this game, this is not an argument that I find remotely compelling. The game is telling you how to play. Learn the game.