[Discussion] Men talking to men about Feminism

This thread is for people who believe that when it comes to feminism it's important for men to listen to women and to talk to men.

In this thread we assume Feminism is something you wholeheartedly support or want to support. Questions about the validity of Feminism are for somewhere else.

JD, do you feel that you couldn't have had the same great experiences re: values and teachers in a co-ed institution? Did you graduate high school having had any meaningful experiences with any girls your age that weren't family? I don't want this to come across as persecution, I genuinely appreciate your perspective and want to understand my own barometer better.

Also, I'm certainly not here to throw shade on anyone's fantasies, kinks or fetishes. You're in to what you're in to I agree, but I do wonder if the standard 'catholic schoolgirl as untouchable vessel of purity who can't wait to get dirty' thing isn't just an insidious cultural expression of repressed teenage urges, especially since the culture makers and gatekeepers of our time are generally privately educated WASPs....

Clearly we need an "I have the hots for my spouse catch-all" thread.

DC Malleus wrote:

but I do wonder if the standard 'catholic schoolgirl as untouchable vessel of purity who can't wait to get dirty' thing isn't just an insidious cultural expression of repressed teenage urges, especially since the culture makers and gatekeepers of our time are generally privately educated WASPs....

I'm starting to think regressive forces aren't even that deep, they just latch onto anything they encounter and mine it for ammunition to use against people. The specifics aren't even all that important, just the power (im)balance that's exploitable.

Keldar wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

Well, going at it from the angle of, gee, she was hot in a schoolgirl outfit sure reads as the objectification end of things.

There are a lot - a lot - of tropes about girls in schoolgirl outfits.

An interesting question here is wondering why the schools in question, which are supposedly trying to lead people away from temptation, continue to require this type of outfit in the first place.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting this, but this seems barely a hair away from saying "what did she expect, look at what she was wearing". Either way, I'm pretty certain it's not the uniform that's the problem.

Keldar wrote:

This definitely seems like it's going to lead to problems later in life, when these girls are suddenly put into a environment filled with people who are attracted to the very thing they've been taught to embrace, and they're unfamiliar and inexperienced with dealing with such attraction - and in the workplace you're not necessarily going to have a teacher to make sure everyone is behaving correctly, or to show you how to appropriately handle these situations.

I mean, ideally we wouldn't be allowing sh*tty men to fill the workplace. Obviously that's a hard task in a patriarchy, but it sure seems preferable than expecting our schools to teach girls that's it's expected that they bear the burden of those sh*tty men.

halfwaywrong wrote:
Keldar wrote:

There are a lot - a lot - of tropes about girls in schoolgirl outfits.

An interesting question here is wondering why the schools in question, which are supposedly trying to lead people away from temptation, continue to require this type of outfit in the first place.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting this, but this seems barely a hair away from saying "what did she expect, look at what she was wearing". Either way, I'm pretty certain it's not the uniform that's the problem.

It's not entirely the problem. It's not even the majority of the problem. The fact remains, though, that schoolgirl outfits are designed to make girls look more feminine and attractive, when the girls don't know how to handle the attentions of boys who think they look attractive. And the girls don't have any choice whether to wear them or not! Wouldn't you think teaching them how to interact with people who have a reaction to the clothing you're forcing them to wear would be part of their education?

halfwaywrong wrote:

I mean, ideally we wouldn't be allowing sh*tty men to fill the workplace. Obviously that's a hard task in a patriarchy, but it sure seems preferable than expecting our schools to teach girls that's it's expected that they bear the burden of those sh*tty men.

It's not even only the sh*tty men that are the problem. The girls don't know how to handle the attentions of the good men, either, because they've never dealt with it before! It's entirely possible for the girls to end up doing something completely inappropriate, just because they've never been taught how to react.

Also, the same problem goes both ways. With no interaction between the genders, the girls don't know how they're supposed to act around boys, but the boys don't learn how to act around girls, either. Neither side has any real practical experience in what's acceptable and what isn't, just what they've been told by their teachers - and teachers in a single-gender school are more likely to present a more one-sided view of the issue than teachers who have to deal with both sides.

DC Malleus wrote:

JD, do you feel that you couldn't have had the same great experiences re: values and teachers in a co-ed institution? Did you graduate high school having had any meaningful experiences with any girls your age that weren't family? I don't want this to come across as persecution, I genuinely appreciate your perspective and want to understand my own barometer better.

Also, I'm certainly not here to throw shade on anyone's fantasies, kinks or fetishes. You're in to what you're in to I agree, but I do wonder if the standard 'catholic schoolgirl as untouchable vessel of purity who can't wait to get dirty' thing isn't just an insidious cultural expression of repressed teenage urges, especially since the culture makers and gatekeepers of our time are generally privately educated WASPs....

Well this was the late 80s/90s in the South so I didn’t really think about it that much. And school was just Monday-Friday during working hours. I hung out with girls after school or on the weekends. The boy and girl schools also sponsored lots of social events from mixers to game nights, and nearly everyone went to Friday night football. I don’t think the experience stunted me on a social level, but coed would have likely prepared me better for working with women.

I just realized something though. My school had a professional dress code - slacks/tie/blazer while the girl’s school had uniforms. Along with combining the schools, girls should be allowed to wear professional clothing including nice slacks. That would help with professional development while eliminating the whole “forbidden fruit” motif.

Keldar wrote:
halfwaywrong wrote:
Keldar wrote:

There are a lot - a lot - of tropes about girls in schoolgirl outfits.

An interesting question here is wondering why the schools in question, which are supposedly trying to lead people away from temptation, continue to require this type of outfit in the first place.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting this, but this seems barely a hair away from saying "what did she expect, look at what she was wearing". Either way, I'm pretty certain it's not the uniform that's the problem.

It's not entirely the problem. It's not even the majority of the problem. The fact remains, though, that schoolgirl outfits are designed to make girls look more feminine and attractive, when the girls don't know how to handle the attentions of boys who think they look attractive. And the girls don't have any choice whether to wear them or not! Wouldn't you think teaching them how to interact with people who have a reaction to the clothing you're forcing them to wear would be part of their education?

halfwaywrong wrote:

I mean, ideally we wouldn't be allowing sh*tty men to fill the workplace. Obviously that's a hard task in a patriarchy, but it sure seems preferable than expecting our schools to teach girls that's it's expected that they bear the burden of those sh*tty men.

It's not even only the sh*tty men that are the problem. The girls don't know how to handle the attentions of the good men, either, because they've never dealt with it before! It's entirely possible for the girls to end up doing something completely inappropriate, just because they've never been taught how to react.

Also, the same problem goes both ways. With no interaction between the genders, the girls don't know how they're supposed to act around boys, but the boys don't learn how to act around girls, either. Neither side has any real practical experience in what's acceptable and what isn't, just what they've been told by their teachers - and teachers in a single-gender school are more likely to present a more one-sided view of the issue than teachers who have to deal with both sides.

It's certainly true that the women aren't taught how to react to attention from men, but the main cause of the problem that the boys aren't taught how to properly demonstrate their attraction, and they're taught it's not their fault when they do so improperly. It's framed as failing to resist temptation from an outside source which also frames it as the schoolgirl's fault for being a source of temptation instead of the schoolboys fault for not knowing how to handle his desire. That's really where the problem for both groups lies. As they're both taught that desire is wrong, they're not given any tools to healthily deal with it either in themselves or from others. Even if they were given them, since they were seperated they had no chance to practice them before being tossed out into the real world.
Basically, we will get far better results if we focus on teaching boys how to behave than we will if we focus on teaching girls how to deal with misbehaving boys. The former addresses the actual problem, the latter only addresses a symptom of it.

I actually wonder if Catholic school uniforms were just a pragmatic decision when Catholics started pulling their kids out of public schools before 'religion' was removed from the public schools, because back then the 'religion' was Protestantism.

I'm thinking those uniforms were mostly designed the way they were so they could last long enough to be handed down from oldest sister to middle sister to youngest sister to 'surprise' sister.

Firstly in response to DC's question - I personally won't be sending mine to private schools. Traditionally in Sydney they were for affluent white Christian/Catholic families although in the last 15 years their intake is now quite dominated with a diverse ethnicity mix as immigrant parents seek to invest in the best educational opportunities for their children. My wife and I oppose the private school system because we hope to raise more balanced individuals and academics is secondary as an objective. I'd rather use the school fees conserved to bankroll a child's startup venture or a gap year travelling and supporting the needy.

I am not sure whether the boy will do well enough to enter an academically selective school but one of the preferences I listed in the application is a nearby all boys selective school. Whilst it would be convenient in the sense of daily school commute I hope he doesn't get nominated to attend that one because my personal view is that spending your formative years away from the other sex is not a good way to raise balanced adults. If anything I think it would only intensify sexual desires.

As for the school uniform thing, I don't think it's that problematic so long as it's an adult fetish that doesn't cross over into preying on the young and vulnerable. I think of it like rougher sex play such as choking or hair pulling. Not that I've done any of that but if it's consensual and it heightens the intensity then I suppose it's up to the participants to determine what pleases them. Likewise, joking around between men about sexuality I think is okay provided it does not then mutate into contempt and disrespect for women. I think the problem is that I believe a lot of men go on to internalise the jockey talk and manifest it in their daily lives.

To also comment quickly on the uniform thing incorporating slacks. One of the private Catholic schools here is considering abandoning dresses/skirts for slacks in the wake of national outrage over sexual assaults against women. I don't know how I feel about that. It almost feels like victim shaming as in society thinks boys and men will stop their misogynistic ways just because of a hyper sexualised fetish over uniforms and so called purity/chastity fetishism. Our public school allows girls to opt for trousers as part of their winter uniform. I think that's neat from the perspective of keeping warm. I think giving girls the choice to wear trousers is important but uniform only distracts from what many here see as combating a symptom rather than the underlying cause.

Bfgp wrote:

To also comment quickly on the uniform thing incorporating slacks. One of the private Catholic schools here is considering abandoning dresses/skirts for slacks in the wake of national outrage over sexual assaults against women. I don't know how I feel about that. It almost feels like victim shaming as in society thinks boys and men will stop their misogynistic ways just because of a hyper sexualised fetish over uniforms and so called purity/chastity fetishism. Our public school allows girls to opt for trousers as part of their winter uniform. I think that's neat from the perspective of keeping warm. I think giving girls the choice to wear trousers is important but uniform only distracts from what many here see as combating a symptom rather than the underlying cause.

Yeah, that sounds like the right thing for the wrong reason.

cheeze_pavilion wrote:

I actually wonder if Catholic school uniforms were just a pragmatic decision when Catholics started pulling their kids out of public schools before 'religion' was removed from the public schools, because back then the 'religion' was Protestantism.

I'm thinking those uniforms were mostly designed the way they were so they could last long enough to be handed down from oldest sister to middle sister to youngest sister to 'surprise' sister.

Part of it too is to help avoid shaming of poorer kids by having everyone wear the same thing. Of course at my Catholic grade school which had uniforms, the rich kids would still find subtle ways to flaunt their wealth. Most often in having the best sneakers.

Bfgp wrote:

I'd rather use the school fees conserved to bankroll a child's startup venture or a gap year travelling and supporting the needy.

Or sending your son to train with Paleocon.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueOffMyCh...

Not even a little wrong.

Republicans: We don't want government having broad, far reaching powers.
Also Republicans: We want the state to control what you can do with your own body, and also intrude on your medical rights. We want to be able to withhold life-saving procedures from you if we don't like them.

LarryC wrote:

Republicans: We don't want government having broad, far reaching powers.
Also Republicans: We want the state to control what you can do with your own body, and also intrude on your medical rights. We want to be able to withhold life-saving procedures from you if we don't like them.

If we wanted to list all of the government overreach the Republicans want, we'd run out of bandwidth.

John Gibson was forced to step down from this CEO position at tripwire.
Canceled oh no!

Here is what he said

“Proud of #USSupremeCourt affirming the Texas law banning abortion for babies with a heartbeat. As an entertainer I don’t get political often. Yet with so many vocal peers on the other side of this issue, I felt it was important to go on the record as a pro-life game developer.”

In NSW Australia, a bill just passed royal assent to amend criminal laws to require postive consent to sexual intercourse.

Crimes Legislation Amendment (Sexual Consent Reforms) Bill 2021: The government website to download the text of the bill is here.

The breadth of reform is more than that; the amendments expressly state that consent may be withdrawn and non resistance is not a sign of consent.

It's a long overdue reform in this area of law. As a man and as a parent, I'm pleased that the law is clearly stated and aligns with societal expectations. I hope this reform is also enacted uniformly across the world.