[Discussion] Men talking to men about Feminism

This thread is for people who believe that when it comes to feminism it's important for men to listen to women and to talk to men.

In this thread we assume Feminism is something you wholeheartedly support or want to support. Questions about the validity of Feminism are for somewhere else.

I think clocky's reply stands in it's own but I also saw the other post.

If anything everyone should reread the recent Twitter threads Elima points to then shut up and learn.

Also, again, that puts the onus on women educating men rather than men educating themselves. Let's not do that.

Trophy Husband wrote:

From the other thread:

ClockworkHouse wrote:

"Toxic femininity" is the "reverse racism" of gender.

I liked RnR's post in the other thread. I didn't know toxic femininity was a thing, and it gave me something to think about. Then I saw Clockwork's reply and it really clarified the issue for me. I didn't get to see the deleted replies, but I can guess what they were...

I guess long story short, without RnR's post we don't get Clockwork's fantastic reply.

True, and I'd say it isn't a thing. Toxic masculinity isn't a boys-only game, and it's firmly in the driver's seat of what folks are trying to call out as "toxic femininity". Trying to point it out as a separate subject is wrong-headed. It's all part of the same culture we're calling out.

Toxic masculinity isn't about being the manliest person in Manville who sings baritone and masters the grill while stripping the bark from firewood with their stubble. If that's in your heart, be it (whether you're a man OR a woman OR neither - take that, expectations!). It's about men and women who participate in a male-dominated culture which enforces roles and behaviors on other people without respecting and dignifying who they really are. That toxicity infects and spreads.

LouZiffer wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:

From the other thread:

ClockworkHouse wrote:

"Toxic femininity" is the "reverse racism" of gender.

I liked RnR's post in the other thread. I didn't know toxic femininity was a thing, and it gave me something to think about. Then I saw Clockwork's reply and it really clarified the issue for me. I didn't get to see the deleted replies, but I can guess what they were...

I guess long story short, without RnR's post we don't get Clockwork's fantastic reply.

True, and I'd say it isn't a thing. Toxic masculinity isn't a boys-only game, and it's firmly in the driver's seat of what folks are trying to call out as "toxic femininity". Trying to point it out as a separate subject is wrong-headed. It's all part of the same culture we're calling out.

Toxic masculinity isn't about being the manliest person in Manville who sings baritone and masters the grill while stripping the bark from firewood with their stubble. If that's in your heart, be it (whether you're a man OR a woman OR neither - take that, expectations!). It's about men and women who participate in a male-dominated culture which enforces roles and behaviors on other people without respecting and dignifying who they really are. That toxicity infects and spreads.

I don't think I have ever heard it defined that way. The general concept and how it's part of our patriarchal society. But toxic masculinity has usually been focused on what are the bad parts of masculine behavior, not what are secondary (probably not the correct term but I couldn't think of a better one) effects of it.

lunchbox12682 wrote:
LouZiffer wrote:

True, and I'd say it isn't a thing. Toxic masculinity isn't a boys-only game, and it's firmly in the driver's seat of what folks are trying to call out as "toxic femininity". Trying to point it out as a separate subject is wrong-headed. It's all part of the same culture we're calling out.

Toxic masculinity isn't about being the manliest person in Manville who sings baritone and masters the grill while stripping the bark from firewood with their stubble. If that's in your heart, be it (whether you're a man OR a woman OR neither - take that, expectations!). It's about men and women who participate in a male-dominated culture which enforces roles and behaviors on other people without respecting and dignifying who they really are. That toxicity infects and spreads.

I don't think I have ever heard it defined that way. The general concept and how it's part of our patriarchal society. But toxic masculinity has usually been focused on what are the bad parts of masculine behavior, not what are secondary (probably not the correct term but I couldn't think of a better one) effects of it.

It has, and that confuses the entire issue because you get people asking "Is this toxic?" about nearly everything or thinking it only applies to men. For example: You get men being mad about supposedly someone saying "tut tut" about guys grilling in a commercial instead of recognizing it as being a cookie cutter role and behavior (saying "boys will be boys") which toxic masculinity pressures them into.

Toxic masculinity does not exist in a vacuum. It has a goal: To enforce a patriarchal culture and define who people are for them.

I'm giving a lens to see it through which makes things very simple. We all know the behaviors and roles which toxic masculinity pressures us to adopt. We live with them and feel their presence all the time.

*materialises in thread for a moment*

If you aren't following Pop Culture Detective's videos on toxic masculinity in media, they might be worth a peek. This is his most recent one today...

* vanishes into the shadows again*

Watched that. Very good analysis, and if I recall, I've seen several other of this guy's videos and they've all been good. It actually brought up where I've been struggling generally in terms of my own progress. Straight, white male in a conservative, religious, patriarchal culture. And I'm finding it both hard and challenging to wrap my head around how narrow my views and instilled beliefs are. I think the fact that it's hard and challenging is a good thing because it means I'm actually confronting internal assumptions I've never had reason to question before. But it is super overwhelming at times. Not meant as a complaint, though, just a meta-observation of my process.

I recall comments about the jokes in IT Crowd, and I started watching it again because I wanted to see those jokes in a better light than I had the first time around. And the objectionable content is rampant. I'm seeing better how things my narrow view once thought humorous are offensive and demeaning to others. That's a hard shift, I think, because my experience is both naturally narrow, and culturally dominant. That gives little circumstance that would prompt a re-evaluation, and also a difficult current against which to swim.

I don't think I've ever made a prison drop the soap joke like those outlined in the video--it's not really who I am to make those kinds of jokes. But I also know I've found them funny or at least "appreciated the humor." But the video is spot on about how it presents victimized men as "less than" or "on par with women" which just makes me feel sick. The odd thing, though, it's the "on par with women" that makes me feel more sick. So, I think my progress on feminism is farther along than my progress with toxic masculinity. Or maybe as a man who has always considered himself "less than" in the eyes of traditional masculinity and more feminine in a number of aspects.... actually going to just stop myself right there and call it for what it is. That's some more toxic masculinity crap right there. Man, this stuff runs deep and wide.

Didn't know which thread to put this in, but this is disappointing as I liked his music and now have to avoid him.

Boo, deadmau5.

Welp, yeah, done.

Maybe this article is a little tangential. On the rise of Rational And Logical guys on the internet and how/why they quickly became red-pilling racists and anti-feminists:

https://theoutline.com/post/7083/the...

Seems very relevant to me.