[Discussion] Men talking to men about Feminism

This thread is for people who believe that when it comes to feminism it's important for men to listen to women and to talk to men.

In this thread we assume Feminism is something you wholeheartedly support or want to support. Questions about the validity of Feminism are for somewhere else.

I think clocky's reply stands in it's own but I also saw the other post.

If anything everyone should reread the recent Twitter threads Elima points to then shut up and learn.

Also, again, that puts the onus on women educating men rather than men educating themselves. Let's not do that.

Trophy Husband wrote:

From the other thread:

ClockworkHouse wrote:

"Toxic femininity" is the "reverse racism" of gender.

I liked RnR's post in the other thread. I didn't know toxic femininity was a thing, and it gave me something to think about. Then I saw Clockwork's reply and it really clarified the issue for me. I didn't get to see the deleted replies, but I can guess what they were...

I guess long story short, without RnR's post we don't get Clockwork's fantastic reply.

True, and I'd say it isn't a thing. Toxic masculinity isn't a boys-only game, and it's firmly in the driver's seat of what folks are trying to call out as "toxic femininity". Trying to point it out as a separate subject is wrong-headed. It's all part of the same culture we're calling out.

Toxic masculinity isn't about being the manliest person in Manville who sings baritone and masters the grill while stripping the bark from firewood with their stubble. If that's in your heart, be it (whether you're a man OR a woman OR neither - take that, expectations!). It's about men and women who participate in a male-dominated culture which enforces roles and behaviors on other people without respecting and dignifying who they really are. That toxicity infects and spreads.

LouZiffer wrote:
Trophy Husband wrote:

From the other thread:

ClockworkHouse wrote:

"Toxic femininity" is the "reverse racism" of gender.

I liked RnR's post in the other thread. I didn't know toxic femininity was a thing, and it gave me something to think about. Then I saw Clockwork's reply and it really clarified the issue for me. I didn't get to see the deleted replies, but I can guess what they were...

I guess long story short, without RnR's post we don't get Clockwork's fantastic reply.

True, and I'd say it isn't a thing. Toxic masculinity isn't a boys-only game, and it's firmly in the driver's seat of what folks are trying to call out as "toxic femininity". Trying to point it out as a separate subject is wrong-headed. It's all part of the same culture we're calling out.

Toxic masculinity isn't about being the manliest person in Manville who sings baritone and masters the grill while stripping the bark from firewood with their stubble. If that's in your heart, be it (whether you're a man OR a woman OR neither - take that, expectations!). It's about men and women who participate in a male-dominated culture which enforces roles and behaviors on other people without respecting and dignifying who they really are. That toxicity infects and spreads.

I don't think I have ever heard it defined that way. The general concept and how it's part of our patriarchal society. But toxic masculinity has usually been focused on what are the bad parts of masculine behavior, not what are secondary (probably not the correct term but I couldn't think of a better one) effects of it.

lunchbox12682 wrote:
LouZiffer wrote:

True, and I'd say it isn't a thing. Toxic masculinity isn't a boys-only game, and it's firmly in the driver's seat of what folks are trying to call out as "toxic femininity". Trying to point it out as a separate subject is wrong-headed. It's all part of the same culture we're calling out.

Toxic masculinity isn't about being the manliest person in Manville who sings baritone and masters the grill while stripping the bark from firewood with their stubble. If that's in your heart, be it (whether you're a man OR a woman OR neither - take that, expectations!). It's about men and women who participate in a male-dominated culture which enforces roles and behaviors on other people without respecting and dignifying who they really are. That toxicity infects and spreads.

I don't think I have ever heard it defined that way. The general concept and how it's part of our patriarchal society. But toxic masculinity has usually been focused on what are the bad parts of masculine behavior, not what are secondary (probably not the correct term but I couldn't think of a better one) effects of it.

It has, and that confuses the entire issue because you get people asking "Is this toxic?" about nearly everything or thinking it only applies to men. For example: You get men being mad about supposedly someone saying "tut tut" about guys grilling in a commercial instead of recognizing it as being a cookie cutter role and behavior (saying "boys will be boys") which toxic masculinity pressures them into.

Toxic masculinity does not exist in a vacuum. It has a goal: To enforce a patriarchal culture and define who people are for them.

I'm giving a lens to see it through which makes things very simple. We all know the behaviors and roles which toxic masculinity pressures us to adopt. We live with them and feel their presence all the time.

*materialises in thread for a moment*

If you aren't following Pop Culture Detective's videos on toxic masculinity in media, they might be worth a peek. This is his most recent one today...

* vanishes into the shadows again*

Watched that. Very good analysis, and if I recall, I've seen several other of this guy's videos and they've all been good. It actually brought up where I've been struggling generally in terms of my own progress. Straight, white male in a conservative, religious, patriarchal culture. And I'm finding it both hard and challenging to wrap my head around how narrow my views and instilled beliefs are. I think the fact that it's hard and challenging is a good thing because it means I'm actually confronting internal assumptions I've never had reason to question before. But it is super overwhelming at times. Not meant as a complaint, though, just a meta-observation of my process.

I recall comments about the jokes in IT Crowd, and I started watching it again because I wanted to see those jokes in a better light than I had the first time around. And the objectionable content is rampant. I'm seeing better how things my narrow view once thought humorous are offensive and demeaning to others. That's a hard shift, I think, because my experience is both naturally narrow, and culturally dominant. That gives little circumstance that would prompt a re-evaluation, and also a difficult current against which to swim.

I don't think I've ever made a prison drop the soap joke like those outlined in the video--it's not really who I am to make those kinds of jokes. But I also know I've found them funny or at least "appreciated the humor." But the video is spot on about how it presents victimized men as "less than" or "on par with women" which just makes me feel sick. The odd thing, though, it's the "on par with women" that makes me feel more sick. So, I think my progress on feminism is farther along than my progress with toxic masculinity. Or maybe as a man who has always considered himself "less than" in the eyes of traditional masculinity and more feminine in a number of aspects.... actually going to just stop myself right there and call it for what it is. That's some more toxic masculinity crap right there. Man, this stuff runs deep and wide.

Didn't know which thread to put this in, but this is disappointing as I liked his music and now have to avoid him.

Boo, deadmau5.

Welp, yeah, done.

Maybe this article is a little tangential. On the rise of Rational And Logical guys on the internet and how/why they quickly became red-pilling racists and anti-feminists:

https://theoutline.com/post/7083/the...

Seems very relevant to me.

Hello all! I’ve been on a long personal discovery journey for the past 5-6 years as I came out of my teens and left the ultra conservative and traditional community and culture I grew up in. Being a rather sheltered kid and teen I really only had the influences of my parents and friends to help me shape a world view. Now that I’ve started forging a path for myself I’m really interested in learning more about all kinds of things, one of which is feminism.

I apologize in advance if I use some incorrect language, I’m learning so absolutely feel free to correct and steer me back on track if I step off the rails. I’d like to consider myself a women’s rights advocate or a learning feminist but I haven’t been sure if these are the appropriate terms to use in that space. Anyway, the real reason I’m here is I listened to a PHENOMENAL podcast on a drive this weekend that has made me take a massive and deep introspective look into how I conduct myself and how our society sets it’s norms up. I’d love to have a discussion about the podcast because at times I’ve nodded in agreement, other times felt skin crawling disgust, and yet others gone red with embarrassment and shame hearing actions similar to my own retold in the words of women.

The podcast that sent me on this journey was Radiolab’s series on “No” which can be found here: https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/no.... I’ve only listened to the first episode which sent me over to the source material here: https://www.theheartradio.org/no-epi.... Kaitlin Prest has done a masterful job weaving together her story and making me think about what consent is and what it means. I’ve had some conversations with some feminist friends and it’s been so enlightening to be open to a discussion around how our society treats consent and power dynamics. How the word “no” is often not enough for women. There’s so many impactful and powerful lines in her dialogue that really gave me pause. So if you’d like to give it a listen or have listened already I would really like to chat about it. I had so many upset feelings towards the central antagonist “Jay” and his actions and “apology” and wanted to make sure I’m on the right track in my learning and growth.

This sounds really interesting. I'd never heard of it before so I'm going to give it a go, myself.

For other podcast nerds, it's a series inside The Heart by Kaitlin Prest & Radiotopia. Scroll down to mid-2017 for trailer + 4 episodes.

Edit: The Heart looks fantastic in general. Thanks for posting this.

My current two suggestions for "further reading" are:

As I mentioned up thread, I think Kate Manne's book 'Down Girl' is essential reading for anyone who wants to engage seriously with feminism today.
https://www.amazon.com/Down-Girl-Mis...

And the Contrapoints youtube channel has some pretty great looks at assorted feminism adjacent topics covering gender and sexuality
https://www.youtube.com/user/ContraP...

Might I suggest Delusions of Gender?

It mostly debunks the Men from Mars Women from Venus BS, which is great counterfodder for the semi-scientific arguments you'll often encounter. It's also sharply written, which helps ease the angry frustration I often feel vis à vis the pseudo-science that tries to enshrine and rationalize the way we treat women (and men).

I just picked up Caliban and the Witch which seems promising if you are into that post structuralist historiography thing

I wholeheartedly agree with the recommendation of "No" in "The Heart" podcast. It's rough to listen to, but an amazing exploration of what true consent looks like.

Found this interesting on the origins of the term toxic masculinity and the state of the literature today.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...

This came up in the feminism thread - is there something beyond a reactionary "ick it's a girl" response to the upcoming Captain Marvel film?

Garrcia wrote:

This came up in the feminism thread - is there something beyond a reactionary "ick it's a girl" response to the upcoming Captain Marvel film?

short answer: no.

Long answer: noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Back in June, Bree Larson made a statements about how the need for more diversity in Hollywood extends to film criticism too (only 2.5% of the top critics in 2017 were women of color, while 80% of film critics who reviewed the year's top box-office movies were male).

She's certainly pushing all of Teh Menz buttons. So that certainly increases the amount of butthurt complaining from the portion of the internet

Stengah wrote:

Back in June, Bree Larson made a statements about how the need for more diversity in Hollywood extends to film criticism too (only 2.5% of the top critics in 2017 were women of color, while 80% of film critics who reviewed the year's top box-office movies were male).

Thanks for linking that.

Stengah wrote:

Back in June, Bree Larson made a statements about how the need for more diversity in Hollywood extends to film criticism too (only 2.5% of the top critics in 2017 were women of color, while 80% of film critics who reviewed the year's top box-office movies were male).

I fully agree with Larson that there needs to be more diversity in arts and arts criticism. I also applaud her attempts to increase access to underrepresented groups. However, I disagree with the idea that a white male professional critic is incapable of objectively evaluating movies. (To be clear, I’m talking about critics who are experts in the industry and film criticism, not Edgelord 69 on his MGTOW YouTube channel).

jdzappa wrote:
Stengah wrote:

Back in June, Bree Larson made a statements about how the need for more diversity in Hollywood extends to film criticism too (only 2.5% of the top critics in 2017 were women of color, while 80% of film critics who reviewed the year's top box-office movies were male).

I fully agree with Larson that there needs to be more diversity in arts and arts criticism. I also applaud her attempts to increase access to underrepresented groups. However, I disagree with the idea that a white male professional critic is incapable of objectively evaluating movies.

Good, because she never claimed that.

Stengah wrote:
jdzappa wrote:
Stengah wrote:

Back in June, Bree Larson made a statements about how the need for more diversity in Hollywood extends to film criticism too (only 2.5% of the top critics in 2017 were women of color, while 80% of film critics who reviewed the year's top box-office movies were male).

I fully agree with Larson that there needs to be more diversity in arts and arts criticism. I also applaud her attempts to increase access to underrepresented groups. However, I disagree with the idea that a white male professional critic is incapable of objectively evaluating movies.

Good, because she never claimed that.

Unless I’m reading it incorrectly, she initially implied that a 40 year old white dude can’t fairly review a movie like A Wrinkle in Time.

I think you're reading it incorrectly.

jdzappa wrote:
Stengah wrote:
jdzappa wrote:
Stengah wrote:

Back in June, Bree Larson made a statements about how the need for more diversity in Hollywood extends to film criticism too (only 2.5% of the top critics in 2017 were women of color, while 80% of film critics who reviewed the year's top box-office movies were male).

I fully agree with Larson that there needs to be more diversity in arts and arts criticism. I also applaud her attempts to increase access to underrepresented groups. However, I disagree with the idea that a white male professional critic is incapable of objectively evaluating movies.

Good, because she never claimed that.

Unless I’m reading it incorrectly, she implied that a 40 year old white dude can’t fairly review a movie like A Wrinkle in Time.

You're reading it incorrectly.
It's not that a white dude can't review it fairly, it's that his opinion of it isn't as important as the opinion of a woman of color, whom the book (and film) was made for. He's likely not going to pick up on some things that are very important, or even if he does, he only gets it academically.

jdzappa wrote:
Stengah wrote:
jdzappa wrote:
Stengah wrote:

Back in June, Bree Larson made a statements about how the need for more diversity in Hollywood extends to film criticism too (only 2.5% of the top critics in 2017 were women of color, while 80% of film critics who reviewed the year's top box-office movies were male).

I fully agree with Larson that there needs to be more diversity in arts and arts criticism. I also applaud her attempts to increase access to underrepresented groups. However, I disagree with the idea that a white male professional critic is incapable of objectively evaluating movies.

Good, because she never claimed that.

Unless I’m reading it incorrectly, she initially implied that a 40 year old white dude can’t fairly review a movie like A Wrinkle in Time.

She specifically said that SHE didn't need to hear from a 40 year old white dude.. and that SHE would rather hear from someone else.

jdzappa wrote:
Stengah wrote:
jdzappa wrote:
Stengah wrote:

Back in June, Bree Larson made a statements about how the need for more diversity in Hollywood extends to film criticism too (only 2.5% of the top critics in 2017 were women of color, while 80% of film critics who reviewed the year's top box-office movies were male).

I fully agree with Larson that there needs to be more diversity in arts and arts criticism. I also applaud her attempts to increase access to underrepresented groups. However, I disagree with the idea that a white male professional critic is incapable of objectively evaluating movies.

Good, because she never claimed that.

Unless I’m reading it incorrectly, she implied that a 40 year old white dude can’t fairly review a movie like A Wrinkle in Time.

Consider reframing it as the message in a movie like A Wrinkle In Time may not speak as clearly to that hypothetical 40 year old white dude. While said dude can review aspects like style, pacing, etc. he does not have a set of experiences to filter aspects like the story in a way that is as meaningful to that movies target audience.

It is not a matter of fair or not; rather it is that the review may lack a point of view that explains why this particular story is meaningful or what its impact is.