[Discussion] Men talking to men about Feminism

This thread is for people who believe that when it comes to feminism it's important for men to listen to women and to talk to men.

In this thread we assume Feminism is something you wholeheartedly support or want to support. Questions about the validity of Feminism are for somewhere else.

Bfgp wrote:

This most recent "incident" is a reminder to all of us that it's very easy to drown out the minority female voices with the overwhelming male majority.

I don't think we need to ban men from participating in general discussion threads, but the better approach for most men is probably to refrain from too actively participating in such threads given the net effect, whether unintentional or not, is to reinforce male privilege. If in doubt, come to this thread and have your say and discuss the issues.

I also think the present threads are serving their purposes.

But sometimes people pile on and denigrate Goodjers posting with good intentions / lack of awareness of the broader issues. I understand people can lose patience and the temptation to respond with a snarky comment, but honestly, it's not about "winning the internet" and congratulatory pats on the back or farming "likes"; the whole point of this thread is to grow awareness and become better men. Attacking each other is the very behaviour this thread calls out. However, there's always plenty of room for constructive feedback.

Tag checks out.

Edit. f*ck you new page ruining this!

The Chairman's hot take: get off the f*cking internet for awhile, my dudes. Call your moms, partners and sisters and daughters and tell them you love them, for no particular reason. Enjoy some sunshine or rain and write bad poetry about nature while we have it.

I only see it happening after the person has had it explained to them over and over, not just in this thread, and they continue protesting their "good intentions" and playing the victim. At that point, we have to wonder if they have such good intentions then why don't they actually listen to what females want.

If a group of women are discussing terrible experiences with men with a particular woman who has had unfortunately more terrible than good experiences if you as a straight man butt into the conversation to offer sympathy how do you think it will be received?

If your answer is “awesome as I’m showing support as an ally” then you don’t f*cking get it.

If your answer is to then “not all men” and get defensive about a perhaps not so great reaction then you really don’t f*cking get it.

Black people fighting for civil rights found sympathetic head nodding useless and affirmations more so. What they wanted and needed was action and behavior change.

Mr GT Chris wrote:

I only see it happening after the person has had it explained to them over and over, not just in this thread, and they continue protesting their "good intentions" and playing the victim. At that point, we have to wonder if they have such good intentions then why don't they actually listen to what females want.

That may be so, but don't forget, the need to argue and be heard is symptomatic of toxic male behaviour; the need to deliver a vindictive beatdown on the internet is the other side of the same coin.

Call it out but in a constructive manner so the person can reflect on why their comment may be problematic. If the person continues to protest and not participate in good faith, then report the post and await mod intervention.

TheGameguru wrote:

If a group of women are discussing terrible experiences with men with a particular woman who has had unfortunately more terrible than good experiences if you as a straight man butt into the conversation to offer sympathy how do you think it will be received?

If your answer is “awesome as I’m showing support as an ally” then you don’t f*cking get it.

If your answer is to then “not all men” and get defensive about a perhaps not so great reaction then you really don’t f*cking get it.

Black people fighting for civil rights found sympathetic head nodding useless and affirmations more so. What they wanted and needed was action and behavior change.

There's nothing "wrong" in the sense of the points you are making. I agree with all points. But perhaps stop and reflect on the tone and how you are delivering the message. This is the issue here - if you use this kind of approach, you turn away the very people who would benefit from shining more light on the issues at hand.

RnRClown wrote:

The content of your character is considered (or overlooked) once you pass the necessary checks for skin colour, gender, servitude. If you do not pass you are given little to no agency and shall be cordoned off from specific spaces. That is where it began. It is where it continues.

Now with an evolution for more than a single extreme where each segregationist denominator can bolster each diverse group uniquely. When allies are sought to enable gatekeepers for certain spaces and/or positions.

I read this as you being annoyed that, as a white dude ( I assume) everyone who isn't a white dude isn't scrambling to get your opinion on their non-white dude situation. Unfortunately for you, the likelihood that you, as a white dude, have something in any way relevant to what they are saying is infinitesimally small. Vanishingly small. Effectively non-existent. You know why? Because I can guarantee they have heard it already.

Men. Women. White. Colour. Straight. LGTBQ. Instead of successfully integrating to share power, we have segregated to fight over and for power. This is not ultimately a negative. It may have been necessary. It is where the original wrongdoers and toxic collective shepherded it. The minorities had to fight for their right. The present over-compensation should balance out over time. When it is deemed enough.

There is a mistake there. non-white dudes are not fighting for power. They are fighting for the right to be treated the same as white dudes. Now, as a white dude, it may be scary to see other people raised up tot he lofty position we once held. Well, suck it up. There is **nothing** special about the white dude that makes us uniquely deserving of being put in a lofty position. Our experiences are not better or more valuable than the non-white dudes who have different experiences.

If you are of a white/male/straight societal identity you are going to be hit by shrapnel for the misgivings of those who came before, and may still linger.

And? I see no problem with that. Unless a white dude can prove to me they have never, ever in their life, experienced male (or white) privilege, well, they can just suck it up and deal. Because, I can guarantee you, every white male out there has been advantaged compared to a non-white male who started out in the same position.

I have, for the most part, accepted I cannot or should not speak unless spoken to in regard to certain subjects. Life experiences aside. These do not matter if you're a straight white male. Not right now. You're the target who needs knocked down. Do not try to be too vocal an ally. Keep your head down unless beckoned. Try to understand where the backlash is coming from and if those wielding it are fuelled by good intentions.

Again, this comes across as being disappointed that women and non-white people are not providing you with a microphone and begging you to tell your story on how you too have experienced the same thing they have. Never mind that you would only be the umpteenth white guy to tell them "yes, I understand how you felt about having to turn away a creepy guy at your door, but let me tell you about the time I had to say no at a panhandler as I was stopped at an intersection!!"

The one oddity that I've witnessed is from the understanding that a woman cannot be challenged by a man. Not at all. Not without this modern term known as mansplaining cropping up.

That's a giant load of horsesh*t. Men can challenge women lots of the time. The trick is to do it when you are an actual expert in the field. For example, if someone (say Eleima, to use an example) were to make a comment on surface organometallic chemistry, and i think she was interpreting it wrong, then I sure as hell would challenge her on it. Why? because I have a motherf*cking PhD in it. The same way that if I were to make a statement about Mass Effect that I am analyzing wrong, I would expect her to challenge me on it (again, just using her as an example) because I **know** she knows way more about it than I do.

The wrong way to challenge someone is to do it with the assumption that because you are a male, you deserve to have your opinion be listened to on a topic in which you are not an expert.

It's a powerful tool, a shutdown tactic, to stir shame and bring about kowtow. Yet, if a man decides not to challenge, and instead accepts with positive appraisal, they may then be labelled as patronising. It is not too dissimilar to how women would say they could not approach men, professionally, without ridicule or hostility coming to the fore. We have fractured and splintered into men only and women only groups who use guerrilla warfare to usurp power from the other. Which again hinders integration. But, again, was necessary to better the lives of the minority.

I know right!! The indignity of being told that, as a dude, your opinion is not automatically deserving of being listened to.

Honestly, and potentially a hot-take, it says more about the current emotional and mental fragility of the individual when they are swift to flare up and attempt to shame or pile-on those outside of their societal identity group.

This is funny, coming from someone who posted the written equivalent of a temper tantrum because some women decided they did not want men participating in a thread that men are supposed to be passive participants in.

If we are not strong enough to engage with those outside of our circle, yet possibly encompassed by our opinions, maybe we shouldn't be participating quite so much.

If you are not strong enough to be told by women "your opinion doesn't matter, and your points of view are not wanted", maybe not try to give your opinion or point of view?? I **know** I have nothing to add to the feminism thread, but I also know I have a sh*t-ton to learn. So, I read, and re-read, and use google if there is something I understand. The same way that if, in this thread, we were to have a discussion on the way society looks upon men who take their kids to the park or take their toddlers grocery shopping (to name two examples) I would expect women to not be participating much.

Also, and unfortunately, some folks are only interested in having someone and/or something to fight with or against. It's how they cope. It's how they blow off steam. It's how they elevate themselves in their own mind. They blame others. They want recognition that they've had it tough, or that they have all the answers. They'll take up these subjects and utilise them for that self-serving purpose. Toxicity is a cruel disease. It once had me.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

OK. Seriously show me the "violent beatdown" you are describing because I am not seeing it. Show me this denigration you are talking about.

I got more of a kicking for saying "if you act like this you're an asshole" to no-one in particular than anyone got for "misunderstanding feminism" and I'm not calling it the decline of civilized discourse.

Reading back over it for the 3rd time:

jdzappa asked—since people were told off for interjecting on the feminism thread—how one could best show their support.
Several people, myself included, pointed out why it's problematic, what other people have already said on the matter, and offered some advice from reading and experience.
A few people chimed in with "well why can't I say what I want where I want?" and I gave the obvious answer "Well you can, but you'd better be ready for people to call you an asshole for ignoring their wishes"

Cue 4 pages of people saying "how very dare you call someone an asshole just for asking a question" and now that's the story.

Meanwhile people are wondering where the women are and why they can't teach us about this stuff when they have long since given the reason why they won't and pinned it to the wall; and the fact people forgot what that reason was—or never bothered to read it when they wrote it down—is why they left.

My 2 takeaways from this thread and from patriarchy at large:

1. Men don't want to listen to what women say to them, they want to argue the point with women instead. Then they can feel like if they win the argument their behaviour is justified.
2. Absolutely nothing wrt to feminism gets done without coddling men's feelings first.

No-one was considering whether mermaidpirate or eleima's feelings were hurt. This whole argument has been about how we can best preserve male egos. Read back over it and take a count of how much time is spent discussing how we go about protecting the feelings of men vs protecting the feelings of women.

And if you are still wondering why women don't want to post in this thread, or stick around to teach our ignorant arses, take a look at Stengah's response to MathGoddess answering the question that was originally asked. I'm surprised she stuck around long enough to post twice.

Maq, you've posted somewhere between pages 32-34 that sometimes what you say comes out not the way you'd necessarily like and that you'd like to reflect on it (cf the asshole comment). I'll be brutally frank and I won't beat around the bush like Sallynasty was - you definitely don't hold back on your punches in here. That's not to say I think you're a bad guy and I think you're wrong - hell, you're getting to the heart of the issues in succinct paragraphs, but that terse approach can be heckle raising. I think the issue as I see it is that you're far more aware and progressive than a lot of other men in here, and to expect everyone to be at the same position. That's what is probably unreasonable.

It's not about preserving egos though, it's about teaching and growing. Nobody likes getting yelled at or called out. But there's a way (and it's very much an art) to frame how one constructively critiques a comment as opposed to attacking the person behind it.

I've got to step away from the PC to shower my daughter but I'll try to come back to the thread later to put my thoughts to the substantive security issue that was the catalyst for this thread igniting.

Bfgp wrote:

. I think the issue as I see it is that you're far more aware and progressive than a lot of other men in here, and to expect everyone to be at the same position. That's what is probably unreasonable. a comment as opposed to attacking the person behind it.

OK I am going to say this one more time:

My problem isn't with people not being as aware as me. My problem is with people who have exactly the same access to exactly the same information on exactly the same threads as I do but who completely ignore it and talk across it. Is it unreasonable to expect people who are claimed to be acting in good faith to actually read what they are arguing about?

I am all about teaching and growing. Where genuine questions have been asked I have always given genuine answers. I am angry at people saying "learn and grow" out the sides of their mouths while skipping out on every lesson and acting like it was never taught.

Anyone wanna learn and grow? Prove it. Go read the course materials. They are on the front page of the Feminism thread. People are tired of reading it out loud to you.

Just for reference, the original Feminism thread was created in 2013, then recreated in a couple years ago when GWJ switched formats. And the feminism thread was born out of this type of exact conversation.

This topic isn't new to the forum and info has been readily available on here for five plus years (and on the Internet (and at the library, and within the minds of the women you know personally for much longer).

Hell, one of my first posts about this topic was basically the "you should probably be nicer" type post. I believe it was Hyp that told me back then essentially the same thing Maq is saying now. The difference is that I didn't get pissy, I stopped and reflected. I talked with my wife and I actually listened. I read books that she recommended. I started to pay more attention instead of getting mad at being immediately "shut down". That's when I realized that after that, most of what I wanted to say had already been said. Usually by women or someone who was more knowledgable than me.

At a time when threads like this have existed for so long, and recent events out in the world have shone a HUGE spotlight on the issue, it's a hard pill to swallow when someone bristles at being told they may be wrong or acted poorly. Especially when they have been told multiple times by the same people, which just escalates the frustration.

Bfgp wrote:
Mr GT Chris wrote:

I only see it happening after the person has had it explained to them over and over, not just in this thread, and they continue protesting their "good intentions" and playing the victim. At that point, we have to wonder if they have such good intentions then why don't they actually listen to what females want.

That may be so, but don't forget, the need to argue and be heard is symptomatic of toxic male behaviour; the need to deliver a vindictive beatdown on the internet is the other side of the same coin.

Call it out but in a constructive manner so the person can reflect on why their comment may be problematic. If the person continues to protest and not participate in good faith, then report the post and await mod intervention.

TheGameguru wrote:

If a group of women are discussing terrible experiences with men with a particular woman who has had unfortunately more terrible than good experiences if you as a straight man butt into the conversation to offer sympathy how do you think it will be received?

If your answer is “awesome as I’m showing support as an ally” then you don’t f*cking get it.

If your answer is to then “not all men” and get defensive about a perhaps not so great reaction then you really don’t f*cking get it.

Black people fighting for civil rights found sympathetic head nodding useless and affirmations more so. What they wanted and needed was action and behavior change.

There's nothing "wrong" in the sense of the points you are making. I agree with all points. But perhaps stop and reflect on the tone and how you are delivering the message. This is the issue here - if you use this kind of approach, you turn away the very people who would benefit from shining more light on the issues at hand.

So you are saying it’s important (equally?) to make sure that you take into account the feelings of men when trying to help them see through their privilege and behavior(s)?

And if we don’t then it’s our fault if their behaviors don’t improve.

Learning to shut your mouth and just listen is hard. It's really hard. Patriarchal society teaches both men and women from the day they are born that opinions are only valid if they are held by men. I would be lying if I didn't say a big part of what I get out of this thread is so I can get my opinions out of my head here instead of interjecting it in women's conversations elsewhere. If men don't ejaculate an opinion regularly it causes dangerous blockages....

You can never learn to shut your mouth and listen though if you get your back up every time someone tells you to do so. Can't happen. And if you don't listen you won't learn. And once you quiet down and start listening you will see the bullsh*t women go through on a daily basis that we are privileged enough to be able to ignore. And then you'll get angry and frustrated and impatient too. And you'll be amazed that the streets don't run red with the blood of men who won't listen. And then you'll realize that whoever told you that women were the irrational, emotional gender was lying about that too. And so on and so on....

How many of you honestly recognised that MermaidPirate's fear was that she didn't moderate her response carefully enough to minimise the risk of violence against her? 5-10 years ago that would not even have occurred to me and if someone had pointed it out I probably would have got defensive about it. I'm not sure I wouldn't have needed it pointed out to me this time anyway, even though I already know that's a thing women have to deal with. Despite being told that I am more woke and progressive than most here I don't understand half of what any breathing woman understands simply by dint of living it every minute of every day of their lives.

Women are the experts here. If we honestly, truly believe we want to know more and help more than we should listen to the experts. And when the experts tell us we're wrong we should suck it up and listen harder. People claim it's not about ego, but it is. If it wasn't about ego this thread would have accepted the opinion of the experts long ago and gotten on with its life. It's damn hard to let go of that ingrained certainty that your opinion as a man is always right -- I am still trying -- but that has to be your first step or you have no right calling yourself a supporter of women.

TheGameguru wrote:

So you are saying it’s important (equally?) to make sure that you take into account the feelings of men when trying to help them see through their privilege and behavior(s)?

And if we don’t then it’s our fault if their behaviors don’t improve.

Whats important is what works.

If taking into account the feelings of men works better to help them see through their privilege and behavior(s), then it works better. If it works worse, it works worse. If it works the same, it works the same.

This is Feminism, not Godless Soviet Communism or Faith-based Sex Ed: practices should be evidence-based.

There's going to be plenty of disagreement about what works better, because it's not even close to being an exact science. In the end, you're going to have to make that judgement. You're going to have to figure out whether that judgement is the best one based on the facts, or just the one you want to be true.

If someone causes harm in the world because they didn't improve themselves by blowing off your message, then of course they are at fault. Are you at fault? Well, same rules apply: did you do your best to figure out how to reach them? Or did you blow off consideration of whether a different approach might have worked?

At you just as much at fault? Of course not! Are you at fault at all? Well, maybe you'll take a sub-optimal approach for a whole bunch of reasons. Because you're tired. Because you don't have the kind of personality where you can take any other approach. Because you're participating in a place where you're not supposed to be a total asshole to the other participants. All kinds of reasons. None of us are saints. We're all human.

Like, one of the things I've come to grips with is that I'm obsolete. I was much better suited to be helpful during an earlier incarnation of feminism. Like I said at the start of the thread, though, Patriarchy Evolves. I didn't like it when I first heard it, but I didn't blow it off. As Patriarchy Evolves, the Flu Shot of Feminism (or whatever the best analogy is here) must change to keep up.

In the end, no one can make you be honest with yourself about why you do what you do. They can point things out, give you food for thought, but at the end of the day it's up to you what you do with the evidence in front of you, and how deeply you look inside yourself to figure out your own motivations.

*Mod*

We've been discussing this and keep coming back to a basic question: is this thread useful or not?

If it's meant to be a teaching tool then it's fair to expect men to come in here and express some ignorant stuff. There's understandable frustration when some users post basically the same ignorant stuff repeatedly even though it's been patiently explained multiple times. Frankly, we'd rather dudes do the emotional labor on this for a change so the thread seems to be worth the heartburn. For every post that needs some insight or discussion, there's a lot of people quietly reading who are learning a ton.

However, if someone is disruptive and/or simply not 'getting it' or constantly making the thread about themselves, it's time to ask them to bow out and listen instead.

We're also seeing a number of people who are expressing burnout. There's times when feeling emotionally depleted and frustrated leaves us with few resources to engage productively. It often results in expressing derision, shaming or righteous anger as a beginning and end to our contributions. It's understandable, but when we're dealing with burnout we tend to have the opposite effect we'd like to actually have, which in this case is reducing the suffering of women and other marginalized people by men working through it together in a safe space. It can also suck the air out of the room, increase reactivity and create the opposite of what seems to be the stated intention by Maq:

Maq wrote:

I started the thread specifically because so many women had given up posting on the Feminism thread except to say "oh, wow, another 3 pages of men talking". The rest just left the community entirely. Like the scope says: listen to women, talk to men.

The other reason I started the thread is because there's a lot of issues surrounding feminism, patriarchy, and masculinity which specifically affect men and it's good to talk about those things too.

So from a mod perspective we're seeing a few areas we can help a bit:

- We can ask individuals to refrain from participating if they're against scope and/or showing no sign of actually listening or engaging in good faith. That's a good reason to ask someone to take a big step back and stick to listening for a while.

- If we're seeing signs of burnout we can check in through PM and possibly ask the person to recharge before engaging in these more challenging, often difficult topics.

I (Shawn) have made the mistake in the past (many times) of letting certain behaviours slide so long as they were done politely. This was wrong. What's been outlined above goes way beyond whether or not you're being nice with how you word things. Specifically in this thread, if there's serious desire to talk about these issues it needs to be done with sincerity and a certain amount of respect for the vulnerability in the process or space needs to be held for people who can.

That's a well thought out post, Certis. Adding some additional support to everyone here: Every time I've stepped away after spending all the mental/emotional currency I can spare at the moment, the conversation continues. By stepping away I don't dominate a thread (yay for you!), I give myself a break (yay for me!), and additional perspectives step in (yay for everybody!). If the train is gonna go to Nirvana or to Cleveland, it's going there whether I'm on it or not.

Don't worry too much about where things are headed. If you're worn out, take a break. That's what a community is for.

Maq wrote:

Learning to shut your mouth and just listen is hard. It's really hard. Patriarchal society teaches both men and women from the day they are born that opinions are only valid if they are held by men. I would be lying if I didn't say a big part of what I get out of this thread is so I can get my opinions out of my head here instead of interjecting it in women's conversations elsewhere. If men don't ejaculate an opinion regularly it causes dangerous blockages....

An exercise I recommend to anyone is (unlike what I am doing with this post) try for a week to always let whomever you are interacting with have the last word. It should extend to simple things like who says bye last in a phone call, or do not send that email back that just basically says I got your email. It is an exercise you can revisit for longer times whenever you want a refresher.

EDIT quoting Maq is a convenient springboard, this is not a specific response to his post.

Maq wrote:

And if you are still wondering why women don't want to post in this thread, or stick around to teach our ignorant arses, take a look at Stengah's response to MathGoddess answering the question that was originally asked. I'm surprised she stuck around long enough to post twice.

I almost didn't and my husband was checking in with me on my emotional health.

It is the "men" thread though, so it's easier for me to disengage. However if it had been on the main thread I likely wouldn't post again. Just saying as FYI for those who wonder where the women have gone. I would have been gone...quietly...but gone.

How many of the men in this thread have been so affected by the posts/behaviors of GWJers that their spouses are checking in on their emotional health? Anyone?

Trick question! We'd have to actually talk about our feelings for them to know we needed their support.

(Joking aside, I'm very grateful to MathGoddess, Clover, Clocky, Bekkilyn and anyone I missed for their input over the last few pages -- it was very helpful, even just as a mostly passive observer. Thank you guys for taking the time and dealing with the cost of participating in the discussion here.)

SixteenBlue wrote:

How many of the men in this thread have been so affected by the posts/behaviors of GWJers that their spouses are checking in on their emotional health? Anyone?

I can honestly say that I have. I also am super emotional, especially for a guy.

Not to equate my emotional vulnerability in any way, shape, or form with the fortitude required to be a woman on the internet/earth.

This community is a facet of coming to terms with my own toxic masculinity and re engaging with my emotions in a healthier way, and I don’t want to diminish that.

I just ache that such change came - and comes - at the cost of other members of GWJ.

The women who fight for men to understand their own toxic masculinity - here at GWJ and elsewhere - are f*cking heroes.

.

Bfgp wrote:

This most recent "incident" is a reminder to all of us that it's very easy to drown out the minority female voices with the overwhelming male majority.

I don't think we need to ban men from participating in general discussion threads, but the better approach for most men is probably to refrain from too actively participating in such threads given the net effect, whether unintentional or not, is to reinforce male privilege. If in doubt, come to this thread and have your say and discuss the issues.

I posted some info in the "regular" thread that relates to this. Lots of great background links included for those of you who are genuinely interested.

SallyNasty wrote:
SixteenBlue wrote:

How many of the men in this thread have been so affected by the posts/behaviors of GWJers that their spouses are checking in on their emotional health? Anyone?

I can honestly say that I have. I also am super emotional, especially for a guy.

Not to equate my emotional vulnerability in any way, shape, or form with the fortitude required to be a woman on the internet/earth.

What I have found is that my emotional state drives whether or not I post. If I am feeling balanced, I usually won’t post much. (Or it will be one-off lines.)

If I am engaging substantively, it’s typically because something is going on.

.

Personally, I hope this thread continues and does not shut down. Even though men here sometimes say some pretty stupid things, it's a place where men are at least seriously discussing the issue between themselves, rather than just with women, which typically means women have the primary responsibility of doing all the teaching and/or women having to justify our existence as people on this earth. If men are getting burned out by the discussion, then there may be some understanding in that experience as women also get burned out and we often don't have anywhere to retreat to. (Mind you, not that I wish for anyone to get burned out because there should in a much better world be no reason for anyone to get burned out.)

There is a discussion on sexism going on on a Christian forum that I frequent and it's taken a while just getting *some* general consensus to be that sexism is actually a sin and not something that God invented, and there is still a whole lot of misuse of scripture to try to defend patriarchy. I bring it up here because it's of an entirely different tone than here on this forum, and in comparing the two, I can better see a lot of the value in this thread despite the arguments.

SixteenBlue wrote:

How many of the men in this thread have been so affected by the posts/behaviors of GWJers that their spouses are checking in on their emotional health? Anyone?

Honestly? Mine did. My wife is a feminist, and very liberal, more than me on a lot of issues. She cried herself to sleep when Hillary lost.

I felt like was treated like crap in these threads a few months ago and purposely misunderstood. She read the thread and agreed. She agreed enough to call another friend and have her read the thread. They had an "intervention" with me. In this one, they joked that they could easily round up women who not only like me, but view me as an ally, to write letters of reference.

And they did this because the way I was treated here affected me hard. My wife could tell I was off, and wanted to know what was bothering me. I wasn't going to talk to her about it, because it is kind of embarrassing, to get dogpiled.

Edit: Snark removed.

Raises hand - yes I’ve had some hard long nights after getting piled on. Sometimes I deserved it but other times I felt like a punching bag for having a differing viewpoint. And then there were the times I was told to kill myself or someone made rape jokes but I’m not going to revisit those dark points.

Here’s the thing - you don’t know what that other poster is going through. Yes, I am a white male. I also have a serious mental condition where sometimes I get manic. There are some people (eg alt right black pill incels) that probably deserve a heavy helping of vitriol. Most people do not. My recommendation is not to get so rapped up in fighting “the good fight” that you fail to recognize the other person’s humanity.

PS - my wife remains more conservative than me and has expressed numerous times her “woke” male colleagues engaged in atrocious sexist behavior, going as far as to calling all Republican women cya next Tuesday’s. I’m sure in their minds they think they are awesome paladins of righteousness.

Jayhawker wrote:

But I get it, that was supposed to be a rhetorical question. You didn't really want to know.

You really are incapable of staying off your bullsh*t for one single post, aren't you?