Star Wars:The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!!!!)

I honestly think I must have seen a completely different film to most of the rest of you

Especially if you're comparing it to the prequel trilogy :O

If I were going into the script writing for Episode IX I'd go full thematically anime where it's selfish attitudes versus teamwork and altruism, so that Kylo Ren's selfish nature and his general's own lust for power ultimately cause the First Order to buckle and break against the final efforts of the rag-tag Resistance, with Rey and company strongly relying on each other and acting for common cause rather than self-interest and glory, thus allowing them the upper hand.

Would fit in with Light Side vs. Dark Side and all that as well.

But I'm not writing the script so who knows what can happen. My point is Kylo Ren won't be another Darth Vader, but he'll be an interesting villain even if he is emotionally unstable and immature... basically, Darth Vader as imagined by the George Lucas making the prequels rather than the George Lucas building the original trilogy (with other creators constantly keeping him in line and even telling him no). I don't find that a bad thing.

Don't get me wrong I'm not seeing Joker levels of villainy to his character or acting for that matter. Though I enjoyed the way Kylo is portrayed. He really does seem like a person who is conflicted, I thought it was really cool that when him and Rey were put in contact he actually had conversations with her. He seems to have an open and engaging dialog with her. How many Starwars villains represent that level of complexity? His big turning point is waking to see his uncle and mentor about to kill him. He even warns Ray to be careful because once Luke sees her power he will want to kill her too.

For a lot of Fans killing Han is unforgivable and he's become unreedemable or full villain. I still see him as a conflicted person with capacity for both good and bad. He couldn't pull the trigger on his mother and we are never told why he hates his father.

I think Kylo has a lot of potential to be a really interesting character on a similar journey as Rey, the movies plot just seems to be done telling that story now. Which to me is why he can't carry the next movie as the main villian, his motivations are unclear now and he is too conflicted to be a resolute leader of the New Order.

Edit just realized I keep calling the first order the new order, damn wolfenstien lol

Rave wrote:

Don't get me wrong I'm not seeing Joker levels of villainy to his character or acting for that matter. Though I enjoyed the way Kylo is portrayed. He really does seem like a person who is conflicted, I thought it was really cool that when him and Rey were put in contact he actually had conversations with her. He seems to have an open and engaging dialog with her. How many Starwars villains represent that level of complexity? His big turning point is waking to see his uncle and mentor about to kill him. He even warns Ray to be careful because once Luke sees her power he will want to kill her too.

For a lot of Fans killing Han is unforgivable and he's become unreedemable or full villain. I still see him as a conflicted person with capacity for both good and bad. He couldn't pull the trigger on his mother and we are never told why he hates his father.

I think Kylo has a lot of potential to be a really interesting character on a similar journey as Rey, the movies plot just seems to be done telling that story now. Which to me is why he can't carry the next movie as the main villian, his motivations are unclear now and he is too conflicted to be a resute leader of the New Order.

I really need to go again because you're reminding me how much I enjoyed his complexity until after Snoke's death. Then he became annoying and uninteresting in my viewing. He was almost there then he lost me. Hoping to go again this week. What do we want to say is age appropriate here. I took my 2 or 3 year old to TFA but that was partially selfish, to always tell her she went to see it when it first came out. She sits through movies really well and loves star wars but I didn't take her to R1 as it was pretty grim and dark. This one is closer to grim and dark than I usually like for 4.5 year old. Although I have seen folks take their 5 year old without a first viewing.

Rave wrote:

Don't get me wrong I'm not seeing Joker levels of villainy to his character or acting for that matter. Though I enjoyed the way Kylo is portrayed. He really does seem like a person who is conflicted, I thought it was really cool that when him and Rey were put in contact he actually had conversations with her. He seems to have an open and engaging dialog with her. How many Starwars villains represent that level of complexity? His big turning point is waking to see his uncle and mentor about to kill him. He even warns Ray to be careful because once Luke sees her power he will want to kill her too.

For a lot of Fans killing Han is unforgivable and he's become unreedemable or full villain. I still see him as a conflicted person with capacity for both good and bad. He couldn't pull the trigger on his mother and we are never told why he hates his father.

I think Kylo has a lot of potential to be a really interesting character on a similar journey as Rey, the movies plot just seems to be done telling that story now. Which to me is why he can't carry the next movie as the main villian, his motivations are unclear now and he is too conflicted to be a resolute leader of the New Order.

Well the extended universe Han is a good attentive father, but that doesn't necessarily flow from the original trilogy. It's entirely possible Han Solo was an absent and selfish father figure, esp considering how short lived Han and Leigh's relationship turned out to me, so there's plenty of room for a neglected son to grow resentful. Especially after being apparently betrayed by a mentor.

The movie has a consistent theme of undercutting the mythology of Star Wars, bringing it back down to earth (so to speak), and focusing on the parts of the story that matter.

A big element of this that I only just realized, a day after seeing the movie and thinking back on it, is that, if I'm remembering the movie correctly, at no point in the entire film do two lightsabers clash with one another. This is a first for the series, and I adore it. A good Star Wars fight is about the characters and their motivations. It's not about the damned swords. There are three scenes where this is particularly relevant:

There's the Rey/Luke fight scene, where they're bashing at each other with what are basically sticks. Despite not using the iconic franchise weapons, this fight is still more meaningful than just about anything in the prequels (for example). Rey does bust out a lightsaber at the end of the fight, but immediately puts it away.

There's the throne room fight scene, in which, critically, Rey and Kylo Ren are both fighting with lightsabers, but they're not fighting each other. The lightsabers themselves don't come into conflict with each other, and indeed there's some passing back-and-forth.

Then there's the Luke/Kylo fight at the end, where Luke pulls his trick which of course requires that he avoid Kylo's strikes, rather than engage directly. The whole thing is perfect.

There's another element of that scene which I noticed in the moment: Luke's lightsaber is blue. This is another hint that something isn't quite right with him: His real lightsaber is green. But Luke is playing up the Pure Jedi Hero in that moment, so of course he goes for the more iconic color of his father's sword.

This is going to sound silly but my opinion is it is like a Baruto/Naruto thing. Han Solo, now a big Rebel general/helping free systems for the New Republic, is not home much when Ben is a kid. He becomes mad at him for never being around especially when Leia has so much pressure on her in the New Republic etc etc. He never fully gets that chip off his shoulder.

Edit: This was a reply to the Ben/Han relationship

pyxistyx wrote:

Especially if you're comparing it to the prequel trilogy :O

Whoa! Hold on there. That's... that just crazy talk.

Are there really people out there who are saying the prequels are better than this movie?

That's a really interesting take away about the sabers never coming in contact Mightmooquack. In the unreliable narrator sections I can't remember if Kylo blocks Luke's saber in his version of the story. Still that's a really awesome thing to notice. The lack of saber on saber violence must have been done on purpose.

Luke using the blue lightsaber is a big sticking point for me, considering Kylo and Rey just destroyed it moments ago wrestling for power over it. I can understand him being so enraged he didn't notice but not explaining that and him using that saber seems like a over sight.

Man I really need to see this again, the more I think back the more I really dig the themes when separated from the story/humour.

This is still much better then the prequels to me.

Rave wrote:

That's a really interesting take away about the sabers never coming in contact Mightmooquack. In the unreliable narrator sections I can't remember if Kylo blocks Luke's saber in his version of the story. Still that's a really awesome thing to notice. The lack of saber on saber violence must have been done on purpose.

Luke using the blue lightsaber is a big sticking point for me, considering Kylo and Rey just destroyed it moments ago wrestling for power over it. I can understand him being so enraged he didn't notice but not explaining that and him using that saber seems like a over sight.

Man I really need to see this again, the more I think back the more I really dig the themes when separated from the story/humour.

This is still much better then the prequels to me.

You're correct, Ren blocks Luke's blade and collapses the hut right? Not to be a stickler but yeah I think so. Still really neat to see so much of something yet such a different version. If anyone has not partaken in Rain Johnson's other films you definitely should. Great director and writer.

PaladinTom wrote:
pyxistyx wrote:

Especially if you're comparing it to the prequel trilogy :O

Whoa! Hold on there. That's... that just crazy talk.

Are there really people out there who are saying the prequels are better than this movie?

In reference to The Force Awakens, I've seen people lament that at the very least the prequels were ambitious compared to that film. Which I'd agree. They still were worse films, but George Lucas wasn't just trying to recreate his old works.

The only comparison I have to the prequels is that the entire casino planet feels like it's straight out of the prequels, which leads me to dislike the sequence but isn't really a value judgment on it itself. The observation is primarily based on its aesthetic.

MightyMooquack wrote:

The movie has a consistent theme of undercutting the mythology of Star Wars, bringing it back down to earth (so to speak), and focusing on the parts of the story that matter.

Rey keeps talking to Luke about how he's a legend and Luke himself shuts her down, part of the meta-narrative the film certainly has about how big of a deal the fandom has made of this universe and its characters. The earlier linked interview with Rian Johnson has me convinced a lot of this is intentionally done.

Couple of thoughts:

I like how they handles Rey's parents. I never really understood why people clung to TFA's brief discussion on this to speculate. I left that movie not thinking twice about it. I said it in that thread and I'll say it again; I would be hugely disappointed in Rey was related to some big Jedi, a Skywalker, Solo, Kenobi, etc. We can have new characters and the torch doesn't need to be passed down to the children.

I also love how Luke talks about the force. One of the items that I absolutely loved in the prequels is how the "light-side" of the force got complacent. The Jedi seemed to have lost its way getting bogged down in politics (external and internal), as a result they were not able to see the threat that was literally in the next building. Then in Empire; Yoda and Ben seem almost embarrassed with what the Jedi Order was and even seemed to try to rewrite history somewhat (though they are vague). Outside of that structure it is no wonder that Luke failed; and he was right trying to classify things like The Force into sides or any structure is folly.

Luke says "Laser Sword."

This is my second favorite; but only because my first movie memories were watching Empire and I remember the OMG moment when Vader announced his patronage.

Rave wrote:

Don't get me wrong I'm not seeing Joker levels of villainy to his character or acting for that matter. Though I enjoyed the way Kylo is portrayed. He really does seem like a person who is conflicted, I thought it was really cool that when him and Rey were put in contact he actually had conversations with her. He seems to have an open and engaging dialog with her. How many Starwars villains represent that level of complexity? His big turning point is waking to see his uncle and mentor about to kill him. He even warns Ray to be careful because once Luke sees her power he will want to kill her too.

For a lot of Fans killing Han is unforgivable and he's become unreedemable or full villain. I still see him as a conflicted person with capacity for both good and bad. He couldn't pull the trigger on his mother and we are never told why he hates his father.

I think Kylo has a lot of potential to be a really interesting character on a similar journey as Rey, the movies plot just seems to be done telling that story now. Which to me is why he can't carry the next movie as the main villian, his motivations are unclear now and he is too conflicted to be a resolute leader of the New Order.

Kylo is literally and figuratively an open wound through out this movies. He feels betrayed by all his father figures, Han, Luke, Snoke. When I see him, i see someone who is very lonely. He thinks he has a connection to Rey, someone who might be able to understand his burden, but that turns out to be artificial, partially created by snoke, partially his misconception of what Rey wanted. So he retreats to pure rage and emotion. I don’t think he will or is required to stay there as a character.

It partially resonates with me because in my work I see a lot of teenagers and adults who have been through trauma and this is how they process emotions. It’s often anger or lashing out at who is in front of you out of a survival instinct. Often after they lash out and calm down they are more reasonable. Some can learn to better cope and express their emotions, some can’t.

One thing I just thought of that I also really loved was Rey having her vision and going to the darkness. Luke's disbelief was great "You went straight to the darkness, you didn't even hesitate". I loved that line reading for some reason. The darkness also being something the Jedi fear but maybe for no good reason is a great concept. Again little pay off after the fact but still a pretty great moment for me.

Edit-- Not to get super political or anything just an after thought. There could have been something very of our times in this movie when two groups with very opposing polarized beliefs and ideals are able to meet somewhere in the middle.

Are there any video games planned to be based on this movie?

battlefield 2?

Rave wrote:

One thing I just thought of that I also really loved was Rey having her vision and going to the darkness. Luke's disbelief was great "You went straight to the darkness, you didn't even hesitate". I loved that line reading for some reason. The darkness also being something the Jedi fear but maybe for no good reason is a great concept. Again little pay off after the fact but still a pretty great moment for me.

Edit-- Not to get super political or anything just an after thought. There could have been something very of our times in this movie when two groups with very opposing polarized beliefs and ideals are able to meet somewhere in the middle.

Just an FYI - it is a movie that is very about our times and if people look closely you can tell whose voices are leading the way

Rave wrote:

One thing I just thought of that I also really loved was Rey having her vision and going to the darkness. Luke's disbelief was great "You went straight to the darkness, you didn't even hesitate". I loved that line reading for some reason. The darkness also being something the Jedi fear but maybe for no good reason is a great concept. Again little pay off after the fact but still a pretty great moment for me.

Edit-- Not to get super political or anything just an after thought. There could have been something very of our times in this movie when two groups with very opposing polarized beliefs and ideals are able to meet somewhere in the middle.

They have been playing with this idea a bit in the new extended universe as well, With Asoka

Spoiler:

walking away from the jedi order at the end of The Clone Wars after they betray her and returning in Rebels as a grey (in saber and philosphy) force user.

Star Wars: The Last Jedi is being review bombed on Rotten Tomatoes (Polygon)

Interesting that I suggested this a couple of days ago and was completely brushed off.
Now you believe me?

Karmajay-- fair point, I don't even think you need to look to close to realize. I just misspoke, I do love the representation in both the new Star Wars movies. I don't necessarily agree with everything from that twitter thread that was linked to earlier buts it's some great food for thought.

Thrawn82--I'll have to watch some of that clone wars show with my daughter (or by myself if I'm being honest lol) we saw a couple of those rebel episodes and they seemed great. I've heard nothing but good things about the clone wars series. Sounds like the best part of the prequels.

Eleima--I was part of the group brushing you off. I hope that wasn't how you took me. Mine was more that there can be genuine criticism that isn't necessarily politically driven. And stated that I felt I had valid reasons for not liking the movie. Apologies if you felt attacked.

Eleima wrote:

Star Wars: The Last Jedi is being review bombed on Rotten Tomatoes (Polygon)

Interesting that I suggested this a couple of days ago and was completely brushed off.
Now you believe me?

This is why we can't have nice things.

Like the first comment on Polygon says - if you're pissing these people off then you must be doing something right!

Rave wrote:

Eleima--I was part of the group brushing you off. I hope that wasn't how you took me. Mine was more that there can be genuine criticism that isn't necessarily politically driven. And stated that I felt I had valid reasons for not liking the movie. Apologies if you felt attacked.

Oh not attacked, just dismissed. It shouldn’t have been all that surprising, we’ve seen this kind of loathsome tactic before.

Found a great article on Phasma:
Captain Phasma Deserved Better in The Last Jedi (The Mary Sue)
It’s true that we saw precious little of her and even though I’ll admit I hadn’t given it much thought, it’s true that she was woefully underutilized.

I'm not sure why people think Ben did (or needed to) hate Han Solo. I don't think he did. It wouldn't have been much of a test, much of a sacrifice for him, if he had. He killed Han because he was told that was his test. He believed that his inner conflict would be put to rest after a grand gesture.

It wasn't.

I really like Kylo Ren as a villain. He's got a bit of nuance, he's not pure archetype. He's powerful - or at least believes he is, and he can do things most other people can't, so they believe he is as well - but he doesn't understand why that isn't enough. He's trying to be what other people expect of him, and when he realizes he isn't succeeding, he doesn't know why and he lashes out.

A number of folks have said that a main villain who throws tantrums isn't scary; I have to disagree. Especially when he's both trying to be a "standard" main villain and also prone to just wrecking sh*t, and you never know which it's going to be.

Eleima wrote:
Rave wrote:

Eleima--I was part of the group brushing you off. I hope that wasn't how you took me. Mine was more that there can be genuine criticism that isn't necessarily politically driven. And stated that I felt I had valid reasons for not liking the movie. Apologies if you felt attacked.

Oh not attacked, just dismissed. It shouldn’t have been all that surprising, we’ve seen this kind of loathsome tactic before.

Found a great article on Phasma:
Captain Phasma Deserved Better in The Last Jedi (The Mary Sue)
It’s true that we saw precious little of her and even though I’ll admit I hadn’t given it much thought, it’s true that she was woefully underutilized.

Sounds like they had a ton of footage that was cut for phasma because too much was already going on. I see that. But I agree she was a cool character that was oversold and under delivered on screen time. I remember thinking she must be pretty key to he story as she was in everything I saw but then barely in the movie. I doubt she is dead...

Chumpy_McChump wrote:

I'm not sure why people think Ben did (or needed to) hate Han Solo.

He says things that implied Han let him down as a father. In the Force Awakens Kylo says that Han would have disappointed Rey as a father figure. I think he says other things but I can’t remember. I don’t think he hated Han, I think he felt unloved

Hobear wrote:

Sounds like they had a ton of footage that was cut for phasma because too much was already going on. I see that. But I agree she was a cool character that was oversold and under delivered on screen time. I remember thinking she must be pretty key to he story as she was in everything I saw but then barely in the movie. I doubt she is dead...

If you check the interview with Rian Johnson he says that isn't the case, and there was never a greater role. He laments it, but with all the characters he was balancing he could not find a place to fit her into the greater narrative.

I can think of arguments both for and against his assertion.

IUMogg wrote:
Chumpy_McChump wrote:

I'm not sure why people think Ben did (or needed to) hate Han Solo.

He says things that implied Han let him down as a father. In the Force Awakens Kylo says that Han would have disappointed Rey as a father figure. I think he says other things but I can’t remember. I don’t think he hated Han, I think he felt unloved

I think he was convinced (by others, I mean) that he was unloved.

I saw it a second time and it was much better after a second viewing. After I got over my own hang ups and expectations and was able to overlook the very obvious mis-directs and nitpicks, I was able to focus more on the characters, their arcs, and the overall theme of the film: failure and what we learn from it.

Poe, Finn, Rey, and Luke (in the past) all fail spectacularly, and in turn learn significantly from their failures. There is some beautifully written dialog and small moments with nuance and subtlety that I missed the first time around. The initial bummer that was not getting to see Luke be a conventional bad-ass, was easily supplanted by his actually becoming the legend that he never thought he deserved to be. Poe grows into the next leader of the rebellion. And Rey becomes a Jedi, but not the last Jedi.

I still think it’s far from a perfect film, and I still think the TFA was more fun, but TLJ is a better and more important movie overall; especially for future installments.

PaladinTom wrote:

And Rey becomes a Jedi, but not the last Jedi.

While this is probably true, I thought Luke's point was that he was not the last Jedi, Rey was.