Star Wars:The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!!!!)

Typically, a ship would get blown up before getting the opportunity but Hux gave the order to ignore the frigate until it was too late.

Hondo staying on was a movie moment thing. I mean, I have no idea why they can't slap auto pilot on the thing and control it remotely by droid but the other frigates had people driving at the end as well.

I was going to end any griping but something occurred to me.

Poe is chewed out and demoted because all the bombers are gone and they lost some good pilots due to his plan to kill a Dreadnought. However, Laura Dern's character implements a plan that costs all but one ship of the remaining Resistance. Another risky plan that resulted in the loss of many. But she's a hero.

I know there's a bit of a contextual difference, as one is fleeing and the other was a purely optional offensive maneuver. However, I still take umbrage with "Do as I say because I said it" rather than considering the option to enact a plan that would risk the lives of a few people rather than a few ships.

Anyway, done griping. Sorry to be a spoilsport.

Misread the post above. Nothing to see here

No, I don't mean the escape transports from the main Resistance ship. I mean all the other smaller ones that ran out of fuel and fell into the range of Snoke's ship. The other ships that made up the fleet as a whole. That was happening during the plan before Poe mutinied.

I'm not sure that was a plan because they did not really have a choice.

ccesarano wrote:

No, I don't mean the escape transports from the main Resistance ship. I mean all the other smaller ones that ran out of fuel and fell into the range of Snoke's ship. The other ships that made up the fleet as a whole. That was happening during the plan before Poe mutinied.

Those ships were evacuated though.

I think it is about goals of the Resistance, Poe attacked when they were trying to evacuate. As a result he lost several of the pilots, fighters, and all the bombers to take out one ship. It was a big ship but in the grand scheme of things it was small.

Holdo on the other hand was trying to get the message out and contact the other allies, which was the goal all along.

What does bother me is that she wouldn't tell anyone what the plan was, I'm still not sure why.

Flintheart Glomgold wrote:

Those ships were evacuated though.

Okay, between this and the evident death of Admiral Akbar (I thought that was just a random Mon Calamari) there's a lot of things I clearly missed from this movie. When did they mention those ships being evacuated?

ccesarano wrote:
Flintheart Glomgold wrote:

Those ships were evacuated though.

Okay, between this and the evident death of Admiral Akbar (I thought that was just a random Mon Calamari) there's a lot of things I clearly missed from this movie. When did they mention those ships being evacuated?

You see the small transport leaving the doomed ship both times. The 1st ship (the med frigate) the guy that stayed behind to drive states everyone else had been evacuated.

HOLY CRAP IT WAS GREAT.

Man, good popcorn flick but this was such a mediocre film overall. The editing and timing just seemed to be way off on many scenes and the writing for a few characters seemed way out of place just so that there was a reason to advance the plot.

- Why wasn't Poe told the plan to evacuate the ships when they apparently knew he had a history of being brash? That seemed written only to lazily advance a plot. It made zero sense not to tell him. Also, his character didn't seem like the type of person that would directly disobey an order from Lea Organa in TFA, but now all the sudden he just shuts her out and causes the death of numerous pilots? Eh.

- I felt Lea should have died during the scene when the command center was blown to pieces and she was sucked out into space. Having her float back in just looked super silly and her character from that point on held little relevance to the plot at all.

- The ancient texts of the Jedi were destroyed, and Yoda claims they contained nothing that Rey didn't already know. But she clearly can't do things to the level of Snoke or Luke. She also received little to no training from Luke and it just seemed to end up right back where she started.

- What did Luke mean when she went straight to the Dark when she had the vision? What was that cave? What were those hundreds of reflections and why did it only show herself when she asked "Who are my parents"?. That whole scene added nothing to the plot at all, so why even bother introducing it?

- Luke mentions he could tell Snoke had a strong hold on Ben when he was looking into his dreams. But it never explains how Snoke even was in contact with Ben, why and how did they meet? What could Snoke possibly entice Ben with that would pull him so far away from Lukes teachings?

- At the end when Rey and Chewy picked up the survivors once they escaped, it appeared they were miles and miles away from the battle going on between Luke and Ben. But the cuts between scenes showed no indication of that. How did they travel so far so quickly? And if they weren't that far from the battle, why didn't the AT-AT's blow the Falcon out of the sky immediately?

The list goes on and on. The characters didn't seem to have the chemistry as they did in TFA, and the acting seemed off in some spots. Del Toro's weird stutter? Kinda goofy to me. Now that Snoke is gone, all we are left with in a villain is Ben, who just doesn't seem menacing at all, or evil enough to really carry a plot along in the third film.

It was good to be back in the Star Wars universe again, but it just felt hastily put together and empty.

- The ancient texts of the Jedi were destroyed, and Yoda claims they contained nothing that Rey didn't already know. But she clearly can't do things to the level of Snoke or Luke. She also received little to no training from Luke and it just seemed to end up right back where she started.

They weren't. Rey took them. They're in the Falcon. There was a shot of the books at the end.

- At the end when Rey and Chewy picked up the survivors once they escaped, it appeared they were miles and miles away from the battle going on between Luke and Ben. But the cuts between scenes showed no indication of that. How did they travel so far so quickly? And if they weren't that far from the battle, why didn't the AT-AT's blow the Falcon out of the sky immediately?

There was the entire cliff in the way, and the AT-AT's weren't at all useful as AA, they needed fighter cover. Otherwise they would have blown the Falcon away when it initially made it's run.

Poe got chewed out and demoted for not following orders. Holdo gives the orders, there's no one to chew her out and demote her.

"Rey didn't get any training from Luke"

Rey spent her entire time at the Jedi temple training. What we saw was the very beginning of it and the very end of it. My assumption was that some time passed between Rey leaving the rebel base and the First Order finding it.

Why does everyone need to see a training montage to know there was training?

For that matter, does use of the force even require any training for someone as obviously attuned to it as Rey is? In The Force Awakens, all she had to do was remember what Maz said, reach out and think about the force and suddenly she was powerful enough to defeat Kylo Ren. It guided her.

I didn't understand the "Rey had no training" argument in the first movie, and I don't understand it here.

I thought it was amazeballs. I loved it. Any issues I had were minor. I loved the fact that Rey's parents were sh*tty drunks. Far more likely than being the lovechild of Obi-Wan and Duchess Satine before she died (or Padme as a new fan theory suggests). Also, I almost cheered when Luke pointed out the hypocrisy and other glaring flaws of the Jedi of the past. He may be older, and have more conviction and gravitas, but he is still a whiner. Luke whines. It's what he does better than anything else. Check the original series.

Two stars up. Five thumbs. Cannot recommend enough.

Reaper81 wrote:

The casino sequence was rough. Finn and Rose had no chemistry and the messaging was pretty ham-fisted. Yep. War profiteering is scummy. Got it. Move on, movie!

Or maybe the movie is underscoring the point that there's no clear good guys and bad guys, that there may be some kind of – wait for it – Grey area there if you look past the shiny and the legends and the black and white of it all.

Sundown wrote:

Or we can take it a step further, and why aren't more ships used as suicide bombers this way in the Star Wars universe (that we have seen)? It seems a wildly effective tactic, even granting that the command ship would do more damage at lightspeed than an x-wing. The medical frigate could have done the same much sooner, when it was clear they were doomed.

I really disagree on the matter of the bombers. They may have been effective but the human cost was way too high.
That’s kinda why General Organa is pissed at Dameron and slaps for not following her orders and breaking off the attack.

The Conformist wrote:

Del Toro's weird stutter? Kinda goofy to me.

People stutter in real life. How many times have you seen a movie or TV character who stuttered and wasn’t made fun of? I’d say very very few. I think it’s important that we had that tidbit. That character stutters, so what ? It’s not the be all and end all of who he is, only a facet.

cube wrote:

They weren't. Rey took them. They're in the Falcon. There was a shot of the books at the end.

After thinking about it when leaving the theater yesterday, it also made me realize that Yoda was covering for Rey when he burned down the tree before Luke could see the books were gone.

Sundown wrote:

And for that matter, if the command ship was carrying on as a diversion or sacrificial lamb while the escape pods were going, why did a Vice Admiral need to stay on it, instead of a grunt or setting it to autopilot (besides to up the drama)?

The leader/Captain stays behind to [wo]man the sinking ship while her crew escapes. Sensible? Probably not, but that's been tradition (at least, in fiction and stories) for centuries.

Or we can take it a step further, and why aren't more ships used as suicide bombers this way in the Star Wars universe (that we have seen)? It seems a wildly effective tactic, even granting that the command ship would do more damage at lightspeed than an x-wing.

I don't think the Resistance would have had enough ships to even consider Suicide bombers as a valid tactic. It would be FAR too expensive. And pointless, against a force that could clearly just roll more star destroyers off a production line and fill them with expendable Stormtroopers.

Against the flagship of their fleet, with the supreme leader on it though...i could see that being a tempting option if your back was against the wall.

The medical frigate could have done the same much sooner, when it was clear they were doomed.

Maybe didn't have enough fuel left by the time they were in a desperate enough situation to consider it? They might even have transferred whatever was left over into the main ship when everyone else evacuated from it.

pyxistyx wrote:
Sundown wrote:

And for that matter, if the command ship was carrying on as a diversion or sacrificial lamb while the escape pods were going, why did a Vice Admiral need to stay on it, instead of a grunt or setting it to autopilot (besides to up the drama)?

The leader/Captain stays behind to [wo]man the sinking ship while her crew escapes. Sensible? Probably not, but that's been tradition (at least, in fiction and stories) for centuries.

And it's reinforced in the film itself, with the cruiser captain still sitting at command while he assures everyone that his crew is safely away before he gets blasted to bits.

I'm not going to lie, I feel like there's some Cinema SIns level bullsh*t going on here.

So I found this tweet thread which perfectly encapsulates what I found so mesmerizing about this movie. It's been hinted at since the film was announced, it's hinted at with the cast, with the diversity, with the plot, with who the baddies are... it's just all there.
Some may think this is too P&C, but it's really the essence of the film. I'm retranscribing the tweet thread here so it's easier.

Branwen Z. wrote:

‏ 1/ Fair warning, I’m in a mood and I’m about to go on an extended spoiler-filled rant about The Last Jedi and some of the criticism I’ve seen leveled against it.
2/ If you’re a woman, trans woman, trans femme, enby, or person of color, I’m happy to listen to the reasons you find yourself disappointed or let down by the movie. What I’m about to rail against is a number of criticisms I’e heard from cishet white men.
3/ I’m not even going to address those criticisms directly, I’m just going to expose what I contend are the actual biases behind the criticisms.
4/ TLJ has more prominent speaking roles for women that practically all the SW films put together, and certainly more than any 1 SW film has yet. In a wold where women are considered pushy if their input is 40% of a meeting, I think that’s significant.
5/ Furthermore, this is the first SW movie where the women WERE ALWAYS RIGHT and always won the day. All the familiar tropes of male heroism were tossed out on their ear - as well they should be.
6/ The roguish hero with a heart of gold was revealed to have only succeeded because General Organa has a soft spot for such reckless men. Faced with a less-forgiving woman in power he petulantly concocts a plan that results in the death of a LOT of good people.
7/ And even the tolerant mother-figure who has put up with him out of complicated feelings for her lost son and the roguish husband whom she has split with finally just shoots him rather than tolerate his hubris any longer.
8/ The defector who quit the Empire and finds inspiration in a strong female friend, tuns out to be incapable of making it on his own and tries to defect again, only to latch on to another strong female friend.
9/ The legendary hero turns out to be incapable of saving Rey, much less the whole resistance & his final sacrifice is that of a decoy. None of the men are able to fulfill their destiny in this movie until they they finally honor the women in their lives.
10/ Time and time again it is the women who express the ultimate theme of the Star Wars saga through their actions. Finally, its Rose - dear, sweet, strong Rose, who does not conform to Hollywood’s traditional beauty standards - who finally gets to remind us...
11/ ...that the theme has been nurture all along. “We will not win this by destroying those we hate. We will win this by saving those we love.” The ultimate and most powerful message of the entire sage, summed up in one of many selfless acts.
12/ And the boys’ heroes - the scamp who turns out to be entirely self-interested, the washed-up Jedi who admitted his adherence to a rule of law was doomed to failure, the fly-boy who turned out to be short-sighted and reckless, the turncoat who turned out to have no identity...
13/ Outside of the closest strong personality? Those are the men who surround me in the geek community. Those are the men who desperately try and convince themselves they are special. And you know what? They aren’t special. The special ones are...
14/ The General who carries on and stays engaged despite immeasurable heart ache and personal loss.
15/ The Admiral who doesn’t bother to explain herself to the man she knows won’t believe her, but is capable of sacrificing herself for the greater good when his plans threaten to destroy everything she’s worked for.
16/ And the grief-sticken, duty-bound, woman who is not the smartest, not the strongest, not the fastest, but is true to herself and sees the good in a man who can’t see the good inside himself, even though he takes her ideas and tries to eclipse her with them.
17/ The men who complain DJ was self-motivated, Finn was redundant, Poe was sloppy, Luke was ineffectual - they see themselves as they TRULY are in these characters, as opposed to who they WANT to be. And they see the women around them reflected in Rey, Organa, Holdo, & Rose.
/18 & that terrifies them because it shows the lie in every other Hollywood ego-prop that abusive, terrible men have woven to disguise themselves as “master storytellers” while they masturbate the same 6 points of the Hero’s Journey into the cauldron that spits out endless...
19/ ...stale clones of the original Star Wars that Lucas directed by further-watering down & white-cishet-male-sizing an already racist and misogynist theory of storytelling proffered by Jospeh Campbell.
20/ Make no mistake, this movie in a post-Weinstein, Jones-winning world is a rallying cry. Enough with these men who only make movies that glorify themselves and their sexual predilections. Enough with movies that hide male fragility behind male ego.
21/ This is why I love TLJ more than all of the other SW movies. IT. FOCUSED. ON. THE. WOMEN. Did it have flaws? Sure. Was it a courageous effort to wrestle some great narrative sensibility out of the clutches of men who can only see themselves & their conquests in movies? Yes.
22/ Ultimately, TLJ asserts that the male-centric approach to resolving conflict only results in the continuance of conflict. And that the universe is full of people who benefit from the blind continuance of male-dominated war-like politics.
23/ And, ultimately, this is the crime that cisher white male fandom cannot forgive - that the world is not comprised of great evil men and great good men who determine the fate of all those around them - but of selfish, scared, tiny men who allow...
24/ ...themselves to be manipulated into self-destructive patterns that ultimately ruin all of their relationships and their hope for greatness.
25/ Also. Puppet Yoda always has been and always will be superior to CGI Yoda.
26/ Thank you and good night.

All bolded parts are my own emphasis.

It's all there. Why didn't Holdo explain the plan to Poe? Because men rarely listen to women in charge (this statement may also be partially motivated by setbacks I've been enduring at work these past couple of years). And when they do, they rarely comply. That's exactly what happened. She didn't explain, because Poe wouldn't listen. And when he did find out about the plan to make a run for the abandoned base, he mutinied. Because he's so used to having his way. And keep in mind that I really like Poe, he's one my favorite characters in the film, and I absolutely have a soft spot for flyboys, but he's headstrong, reckless, heedless.

On a "somewhat" lighter note, I so totally teared up with their short words of tribute to Carrie Fischer in the credits.

Eleima wrote:

ALL OF IT

On a "somewhat" lighter note, I so totally teared up with their short words of tribute to Carrie Fischer in the credits. :(

Beautiful words, I'm definitely spreading that around.

And I can't believe I missed the tribute!! I was rushed out of the theatre for the next screening!

Grenn wrote:

I loved the fact that Rey's parents were sh*tty drunks.

I believe this is a Red Herring. The expression on Ben's face showed he was totally lying. I bet he said that knowing if she knew the truth she might not join him. While I believe her parents hold more significance, even if they don't, I don't believe they were drunks that sold her for booze money.

To me this is the same level as the previous new Star Wars movies; I enjoyed it, I'm glad I saw it, I feel no need to watch it again or buy it on Blu-Ray later.

The universe definitely seems smaller. I get that it's a movie but I almost would have preferred a 33-minutes (from BattleStar Galactica) style chase, where they jump, have a few minutes of reprieve, then the empire jumps in and starts shooting. They barely survive, jump, repeat. That could have lasted for days and would have made the whole casino thing feel less out of place.

I was confused as to how all the New Order people survived having the planet-weapon blow up around them. Was that something I missed in The Force Awakens or was it done off-screen/in a side-story somewhere?

One another thing occurred his morning: how awesome is it to have a movie feature “older” women more prominently? That was awesome. Love, love, love Carrie Fischer, Laura Dern and (I think) Amanda Lawrence who played Commander d’Acy.

[quote="Eleima"]So I found this tweet thread which perfectly encapsulates what I found so mesmerizing about this movie. It's been hinted at since the film was announced, it's hinted at with the cast, with the diversity, with the plot, with who the baddies are... it's just all there.
Some may think this is too P&C, but it's really the essence of the film. I'm retranscribing the tweet thread here so it's easier.

Branwen Z. wrote:

‏ neato stuff

[quote]

Yas! to all of this

On a "somewhat" lighter note, I so totally teared up with their short words of tribute to Carrie Fischer in the credits. :(

I didn't realise that would be there or I'd have waited a little longer! :O Next time though.

Here's Ignatiy Vishnevetsky on the movie.

And this is sort of a two-parter. Here are Youtuber Dan Olsen's thoughts:

They are decently long, but I was most drawn by his comments on how Johnson used Hux, and specifically by making Hux look the fool, to slash out the knees of Triumph of the Will's ugly legacy, calling back to this other vid by him:

karmajay wrote:
the Resistance bombers (even though… there’s no gravity in space!)

According to the VD, the bombs don't drop they are impelled from their racks by sequenced electromagnetic plates in the clip. They are then drawn magnetically to their target :)

Then how did she fall down the shaft? And how did kicking the racks to make the detonator fall down work? That whole thing stuck out like dog's bollocks for me and I'd be inclined to let it go if I didn't think that entirely opening sequence could have been cut.

Also that entire tweet thread is awesome. I've commented before on how the baddies were all a bunch of entitled babymen but I'd not fully grokked the significance of the Rebel men being crap.

Last point: Anyone who thinks that Ben was lying about Rey's parents was watching an entirely different movie to me. It matters that they were nobody. It matters that Rey is powerful because she's Rey, not because she's a Kenobi. And it really, really matters that she's alone – the most powerful force user since Vader –with no-one but Ren and a bunch of books to guide her.

Maq wrote:
karmajay wrote:
the Resistance bombers (even though… there’s no gravity in space!)

According to the VD, the bombs don't drop they are impelled from their racks by sequenced electromagnetic plates in the clip. They are then drawn magnetically to their target :)

Then how did she fall down the shaft? And how did kicking the racks to make the detonator fall down work? That whole thing stuck out like dog's bollocks for me and I'd be inclined to let it go if I didn't think that entirely opening sequence could have been cut.

And why the hell do spaceships need to bank in order to turn? Where are their turning maneuvering thrusters, they'd need those after all. How do they even have gravity in the first place if they aren't using centrifugal force? Hey, did you know there's no sound in space?

bnpederson wrote:

And why the hell do spaceships need to bank in order to turn? Where are their turning maneuvering thrusters, they'd need those after all. How do they even have gravity in the first place if they aren't using centrifugal force? Hey, did you know there's no sound in space?

Yeah I was very much on board with the fact they like to channel the Battle of Britain with how the spaceships work in Star Wars it's just I bumped on that point a little hard when the obvious answer was "cos it's cool".

I agree with a lot of the criticisms of the movie. You could say I’m “Luke” warm on it. Which brings me to my main complaint, the sh*tty out of place jokes. Star Wars movies have always had humor, but it was more natural. Example from FA. Finn is rescuing Poe and as they are walking to the tie fighter, Finn is saying be calm and Poe says he is calm. Finn says, no he was talking to himself. That’s funny, makes sense in the scene, doesn’t feel like it’s just a punchline.

So many of the jokes in last Jedi felt like a crappy sitcom set-up and punchline delivery. One example, at the end when all the first order guns unload on Luke, and he survives and then brushes his shoulder off. So terrible. It’s hacky. It’s out of place with the tone and importance of the scene. Imagine if Luke and Vader were fighting in the originals and one of them dropped a “that’s what she said” joke in the middle. That’s what a lot of these jokes felt like.