[Discussion] Mass Shootings - Yeah, we need a thread just for this...

This year is the deadliest year ever in terms of mass shootings. In a political climate of polarization, it becomes harder to suss out legitimate information from the misinformation propagated by those with political agendas. Complicating this more is the continual resistance of 2nd amendment advocates to allow for political talk surrounding these massacres. This will involve political discussion to see if there are ways we can all agree might be good ways to prevent mass shootings.

This discussion should involve the details of any current, or future mass shooting, and how they compare to past mass shootings. How are they the same? How are they different? Do gun laws have an impact? Does the race of the shooter affect how we treat them? What makes one a hate crime and one an act or terrorism? Are these shootings the price of freedom?

Farscry wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

Looks like we’re going with mental health angle here.

Upper middle class white male who went to Alabama.

So far the angle looks like “low self esteem”. Because unearned self confidence for a white dude is the default setting.

I'm a white dude who had cripplingly low self esteem who struggled sometimes with suicidal ideation into my early 20's (and only improved to not be crippling or suicidal past that point), and I never once even imagined going on a shooting spree. I just do not get how people can think this is even remotely an excuse to scapegoat gun violence onto.

And plus, if "persecuted white men" is the "real" reason for gun violence, then why aren't women and minorities going on shooting rampages with even greater frequency than incels and dudebros?

I suspect it is a conflict of expectations. Being downtrodden isn't enough. It is has to be coupled with the denial of expected entitlement. Being told that you are wronged because of something that was wrongfully "taken away" to give it to the undeserving others is what makes folks homicidally angry apparently. It is the feeling that something is wrong because it is "going in the wrong direction". That is far more powerful than "it has always been this way".

edit: it also helps that a white guy open carrying an assault rifle is a second amendment human right, but a brown dude with a plastic nerf gun is a deadly threat.

Paleocon wrote:

edit: it also helps that a white guy open carrying an assault rifle is a second amendment human right, but a brown dude with a plastic nerf gun is a deadly threat.

Somehow the compromise we ended up with for people killing people with real guns and cops killing kids with toy guns (I live about an hour from where Tamir Rice was murdered) was putting orange tips on toy guns.

Really, does an excellent job of nominally addressing both problems while solving neither problem

Just going to express my profound annoyance at the number of Resistboomers I see on Twitter who are gleefully dunking on Andy Beshear, having done absolutely no research or thought past "Governor of Kentucky therefore Republican."

Not that it'd be great if he was a Republican, but this is more about my continuing annoyance with frequently-northern Liberals who, when they see a Bad Thing happen in the south, decide that is the appropriate time to get their "That's what you get for voting Republican!" dunks in. Ghoulish bullsh*t.

Yeah he's the only thing keeping that state halfway sane. Saved a bunch of dumb people's lives during the pandemic and doing the best he can to get teachers paid and keep Kentucky from being dead last in a bunch of things.

He'll have my vote for president in a few years.

Paleocon wrote:
Farscry wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

Looks like we’re going with mental health angle here.

Upper middle class white male who went to Alabama.

So far the angle looks like “low self esteem”. Because unearned self confidence for a white dude is the default setting.

I'm a white dude who had cripplingly low self esteem who struggled sometimes with suicidal ideation into my early 20's (and only improved to not be crippling or suicidal past that point), and I never once even imagined going on a shooting spree. I just do not get how people can think this is even remotely an excuse to scapegoat gun violence onto.

And plus, if "persecuted white men" is the "real" reason for gun violence, then why aren't women and minorities going on shooting rampages with even greater frequency than incels and dudebros?

I suspect it is a conflict of expectations. Being downtrodden isn't enough. It is has to be coupled with the denial of expected entitlement. Being told that you are wronged because of something that was wrongfully "taken away" to give it to the undeserving others is what makes folks homicidally angry apparently. It is the feeling that something is wrong because it is "going in the wrong direction". That is far more powerful than "it has always been this way".

edit: it also helps that a white guy open carrying an assault rifle is a second amendment human right, but a brown dude with a plastic nerf gun is a deadly threat.

I guess I have a slightly different take in that the modern economy is absolutely dehumanizing anyone who’s not part of the one percent. All workers have a right to be angry, especially if they are getting f’ed over.

The problem comes in when shooters think that just killing other middle class folks will solve the problem.

jdzappa wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
Farscry wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

Looks like we’re going with mental health angle here.

Upper middle class white male who went to Alabama.

So far the angle looks like “low self esteem”. Because unearned self confidence for a white dude is the default setting.

I'm a white dude who had cripplingly low self esteem who struggled sometimes with suicidal ideation into my early 20's (and only improved to not be crippling or suicidal past that point), and I never once even imagined going on a shooting spree. I just do not get how people can think this is even remotely an excuse to scapegoat gun violence onto.

And plus, if "persecuted white men" is the "real" reason for gun violence, then why aren't women and minorities going on shooting rampages with even greater frequency than incels and dudebros?

I suspect it is a conflict of expectations. Being downtrodden isn't enough. It is has to be coupled with the denial of expected entitlement. Being told that you are wronged because of something that was wrongfully "taken away" to give it to the undeserving others is what makes folks homicidally angry apparently. It is the feeling that something is wrong because it is "going in the wrong direction". That is far more powerful than "it has always been this way".

edit: it also helps that a white guy open carrying an assault rifle is a second amendment human right, but a brown dude with a plastic nerf gun is a deadly threat.

I guess I have a slightly different take in that the modern economy is absolutely dehumanizing anyone who’s not part of the one percent. All workers have a right to be angry, especially if they are getting f’ed over.

The problem comes in when shooters think that just killing other middle class folks will solve the problem.

There is plenty about the modern economy to dislike, but the phenomenon of predominantly white, male anger is out of scale with the reactions of other demographics. And the marriage of that and explosive violence with military grade firearms is a phenomenon worth studying in isolation as it is clearly different from how women, people of color, and other minorities have coped with social changes related to hypercapitalism.

Oh agreed - firearms are a big part of the violence. Having lived in Japan, I would often hear about angry knife attacks but often the attacker was disarmed before they could do much damage.

But American culture also plays a role. Men and White upper middle men in particular have horrible social norms when it comes to dealing with emotions and mental well being. Though anger issues aren’t the same as say someone getting violent due to a psychotic break.

But I can’t help but look at how France is channeling economic anger to make real changes and wonder why we can’t do more of the same. And yes I’m talking about uniting across all demographics.

jdzappa wrote:

Oh agreed - firearms are a big part of the violence. Having lived in Japan, it wasn’t uncommon to hear about angry knife attacks but often the attacker was disarmed before they could do much damage.

But American culture also plays a role. Men and White upper middle men in particular have horrible social norms when it comes to dealing with emotions and mental well being. Though anger issues aren’t the same as say someone getting violent due to a psychotic break.

But I can’t help but look at how France is channeling economic anger to make real changes and wonder why we can’t do more of the same. And yes I’m talking about uniting across all demographics.

This might just be my own recency bias kick, but I sort of think part of what makes Americans so easy to manipulate is car dependency. We are easily polarized and tribalized because we live in socially isolated environments where random interactions with people outside our chosen peer groups are statistically impossible. I honestly can't remember the last meaningful conversation I have had in person with someone without at least a bachelor's degree.

Louisville shooter's family says he struggled with mental health

This sort of thing makes me wonder if folks have or even feel appropriate having the firearms discussion with friends and/or relatives with mental health issues. I have had this conversation with friends in the past and often tell them that until they are in a place mentally and emotionally where they have more stability, finding a hobby like exercise or music is more constructive.

I have spent a lot of money, time, and effort in the past getting good with firearms, but I am seriously thinking that we have normalized casual ownership to the point that it is impossible to have conversations about the safety of loved ones let alone public safety.

People have a hard time taking away mom's car keys even after an accident. How are they going to do with take guns away especially if that person is hard core gun rights.

In my family that conversation went pretty smooth but only because friends were all in agreement and were supportive. Also the conversation was not about an item that is designed to be used to end the conversation in a deadly manner and would probably be in the room.

Stealthpizza wrote:

How are they going to do with take guns away especially if that person is hard core gun rights.

Pass red flag laws so the state can seize their firearms when they're off their rocker.

Paleocon wrote:

... but I am seriously thinking that we have normalized casual ownership to the point that it is impossible to have conversations about the safety of loved ones let alone public safety.

OG_slinger wrote:

Pass red flag laws so the state can seize their firearms when they're off their rocker.

Red flag laws still require a person to be proactive and engage with authorities to take away someone's guns, even if only temporarily. If it's impossible to talk with that someone, is it really likely folks will take the steps needed for 'the man' to step in for them?

I had a neighbor warn me to not walk my dogs past another neighbor's house because he was suffering dementia but wouldn't give up his guns. Evidently he was terrified everyday at dusk and would sit at his front windows with a hunting rifle.

If it's "impossible" to talk with that someone then their condition and unfitness to have any firearms would be plainly visible to the police who are empowered under red flag laws to push through the process of confiscating their firearms. The family members don't have to do anything more proactive than call the police.

It's legitimately insane that we're actually having a conversation that boils down to "I'm terrified of what my gun-loving relative is going to do with their firearms, but I can't/don't want to talk to or reason with them so the best thing I can do is completely ignore the problem and just hope they don't kill others or themselves."

OG_slinger wrote:

If it's "impossible" to talk with that someone then their condition and unfitness to have any firearms would be plainly visible to the police who are empowered under red flag laws to push through the process of confiscating their firearms. The family members don't have to do anything more proactive than call the police.

It's legitimately insane that we're actually having a conversation that boils down to "I'm terrified of what my gun-loving relative is going to do with their firearms, but I can't/don't want to talk to or reason with them so the best thing I can do is completely ignore the problem and just hope they don't kill others or themselves."

I think there is a space between "terrified" and "comfortable" in which most people reside. I am, for instance, not comfortable having a conversation with my mom about her car keys, but I am not exactly afraid of her either. I think most folks find it hard to have these kinds of conversations where emotions and entitlement are involved even outside of a personal safety concern.

My point is that we need to normalize these conversations more than we normalize casual gun ownership.

OG_slinger wrote:

It's legitimately insane that we're actually having a conversation that boils down to "I'm terrified of what my gun-loving relative is going to do with their firearms, but I can't/don't want to talk to or reason with them so the best thing I can do is completely ignore the problem and just hope they don't kill others or themselves."

The elephant in the room is that it's legitimately insane to let everyone just have as many guns as they feel like.

Well-regulated militia, indeed.

croaker wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

... but I am seriously thinking that we have normalized casual ownership to the point that it is impossible to have conversations about the safety of loved ones let alone public safety.

OG_slinger wrote:

Pass red flag laws so the state can seize their firearms when they're off their rocker.

Red flag laws still require a person to be proactive and engage with authorities to take away someone's guns, even if only temporarily. If it's impossible to talk with that someone, is it really likely folks will take the steps needed for 'the man' to step in for them?

That really depends on how engaged they have to get. Having to go make a statement that could possibly get back to the family member being reported wouldn't help much. Also having normal officers do the check wouldn't be a great idea either given how sh*tty cops are at conflict de-escalation. People would hesitate for fear that reporting an unfit family member would have a good chance of them getting shot by the cops. But in a situation where concerned family members could just make a simple call and get a check-in done by people actually trained to do them safely, many would find that way more comfortable to do than try to have that conversation themselves.

That's fairly hard to have happen though, usually the gun lobby & Republicans will work very hard to block any laws like that or sabotage the laws that do get passed so they're not very useful except in the most extreme cases.

I heard the Louisville shooter's mother's 9-1-1 call today, and, while the focus should obviously be on the victims here, in these situations I do wonder about the parents and just... how you deal with the world after this.

Like, you can hear in the call, a new, horrifying, unimaginable reality is materializing around that woman in real-time.

And then, at the end of it, you have lost your child, but only after he randomly murdered six people.

I think one of the mothers of the Columbine shooters wrote a really great book on the subject of being the parent of a mass shooter and how you continue afterward. I need to seek it out.

Mass shooting in Dadeville, Alabama last night leaves 4 dead and more injured:

CNN wrote:

“This morning, I grieve with the people of Dadeville and my fellow Alabamians,” Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey said in a statement to CNN.

“Violent crime has NO place in our state, and we are staying closely updated by law enforcement as details emerge.”

Yep. No place at all.

Wikipedia wrote:

In March 2022, Ivey signed into law House Bill 272, known as constitutional carry. It eliminates the legal requirement to obtain a permit to concealed carry handguns. Ivey said, "Unlike states who are doing everything in their power to make it harder for law-abiding citizens, Alabama is reaffirming our commitment to defending our Second Amendment rights", and "I have always stood up for the rights of law-abiding gun owners, and I am proud to do that again today."

Also, I find it funny (sad) that "standing up for the rights of law-abiding gun owners" often means "not making them wait while we check their record to make sure that they're actually law-abiding", which means that it's actually "standing up for the rights of non-law-abiding gun owners".

Another shooting at a park in Louisville yesterday. 2 dead, 4 injured. Been a long damn week for my hometown.

Man... What a horrifying and depressingly frustrating weekend... 2 people injured (life threatening injuries) in a shooting after a baseball game here in Charlotte today. But it's under the requirement of 3 deaths so it's not a mass shooting... yay?

Prederick wrote:

I heard the Louisville shooter's mother's 9-1-1 call today, and, while the focus should obviously be on the victims here, in these situations I do wonder about the parents and just... how you deal with the world after this.

They did an interview with Today that I thought was really brave.

I know a lot of people probably think they're culpable, or deserve no sympathy, but I haven't seen or heard a thing thus far to indicate that they were in any way negligent or encouraged the shooter's issues.

If "good parenting" could stop these kinds of problems, well, there's plenty of evidence it doesn't. At a certain point, your child stops simply being your child and becomes a fully independent person.

Mostly, as I said, I just feel for them, and I find them genuine in that they wish to apologize to the victim's families, even though it's not really their fault.

Like I said, I don't know how you begin to deal with losing a child, but the complicating factor of losing one like this.

EDIT: The book I mentioned is Sue Klebold's. Probably should double this up with Dave Cullen's Columbine.

What the absolute eff is wrong with some people

Man kills 5 in Texas after family complained about gunfire

IMAGE(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b0/9f/23/b09f2330696ef94e56690f096b3f04fa.jpg)

Clumber wrote:

What the absolute eff is wrong with some people

Man kills 5 in Texas after family complained about gunfire

IMAGE(https://i.redd.it/5xmy10qtavwa1.jpg)

I am starting to suspect that an armed society isn't all that polite after all.

Clumber wrote:

What the absolute eff is wrong with some people

Man kills 5 in Texas after family complained about gunfire

I've encountered multiple people at my job who live in fear because they have a neighbor constantly shooting in their yard. It causes anxiety, insomnia, and triggers PTSD symptoms. The neighbor cannot be reasoned with because their response is always angry. "It's my property and I can do whatever I damn well like on it! You can't restrict my right to use firearms!" Usually the person's response is to shoot more. And you never know if they will snap and open fire. Calling the police doesn't really accomplish anything but antagonize the person further.

One guy lived in a wooded area and had to stop going into his own yard, because the neighbor would see his family out there and start shooting in an effort to intimidate. He was pretty sure the neighbor was watching him through the rifle scope, waiting for him to step one foot on his property, probably fantasizing about opening fire. Of course the property lines were ill-defined and the neighbor most likely held an extremely generous view of what he owned, which compounded the problem.

Another guy had a neighbor who would "patrol" up and down the road in camouflage with an AR-15 strapped to his back. Again, the police didn't do anything effective to stop it.

For every mass shooting like this one in Texas, I suspect there are countless similar powder kegs waiting to explode but haven't yet out of sheer luck or neighbors just suffering and keeping their heads down in silent fear to avoid provoking things. The cost of our gun-loving society goes beyond just those who are killed.

An armed society isn't a polite society. It's a terrified society.

My parents had a person move into the home beside them (a lake community up in NC). Who then proceeded to start target shooting in his back yard.

Fun fact. There is a house behind this schmucks house and there are children in this neighborhood. He was essentially shooting in his backyard in the direction of the backyard of someone else's home. What could possibly go wrong!?!

My parents called the police. 2 sheriff's cars arrived and the man was told that it is illegal to be discharging firearms in a residential neighborhood.

You can tell Abbott's super serious about all the Texas shootings when he combines "thoughts and prayers" with "well, they were all illegal immigrants, so..."*

IMAGE(https://i.imgur.com/aRN6gBp.png)

* At least one of the victims had a green card and was a permanent resident, but little details like that would get in the way of Abbott and other Republicans de-humanizing the victims of their policies.