[Discussion] Mass Shootings - Yeah, we need a thread just for this...

This year is the deadliest year ever in terms of mass shootings. In a political climate of polarization, it becomes harder to suss out legitimate information from the misinformation propagated by those with political agendas. Complicating this more is the continual resistance of 2nd amendment advocates to allow for political talk surrounding these massacres. This will involve political discussion to see if there are ways we can all agree might be good ways to prevent mass shootings.

This discussion should involve the details of any current, or future mass shooting, and how they compare to past mass shootings. How are they the same? How are they different? Do gun laws have an impact? Does the race of the shooter affect how we treat them? What makes one a hate crime and one an act or terrorism? Are these shootings the price of freedom?

Aetius wrote:

Since the El Paso / Dayton shootings:
<insert truly horrifying list of shootings>

Is this supposed to show a good thing?

Chumpy_McChump wrote:
Aetius wrote:

Since the El Paso / Dayton shootings:
<insert truly horrifying list of shootings>

Is this supposed to show a good thing?

Yeah. No sh*t. This is a laundry list of crimes that would probably not be possible in country with strict arms control.

Also I think it’s a giant mistake to minimize the seriousness of politically motivated violence. Countries that allow paramilitary operations within their borders are literally how you get fascism.

The US isn’t there yet, but many of us would like to see that prevented.

Chumpy_McChump wrote:
Aetius wrote:

Since the El Paso / Dayton shootings:
<insert truly horrifying list of shootings>

Is this supposed to show a good thing?

The first list, yes - guns in those cases saved at least twenty lives.

The second list points out the hypocrisy of promoting some mass shootings on national news - shooting that support a particular narrative - while ignoring the far more common mass shootings that occur nearly every day, except to use them as a statistic to support the narrative.

Aetius wrote:

Think hard about this. Do you really want the US government to respond to the very minor threat of white supremacist terrorism the same way they responded to the very minor threat of Islamic terrorism?

It would fantastic to watch conservative politicians chew their own arms off trying to be the first and loudest to condemn white supremacy and fall over themselves trying to respond in the toughest manner because they fear being seen as unpatriotic terrorist sympathizers.

And it would be wonderful to finally have white supremacy viewed as something that's completely incompatible with America. It would give Americans the good vs. evil narrative we so crave: your next door neighbor John isn't an otherwise OK guy who might say some pretty racist things--he's a f*cking Nazi hellbent on destroying America and should be treated as such.

I don't understand your hypocrisy argument. What narrative is it supposed to not support? Seems to me that a country that can talk about common mass shootings has a problem however you slice it.

Were any of the crimes stopped by people carrying military type weapons that hold hundred of rounds of ammo and can be shot at a extremely fast rate? Doesn't look like it but I didn't look through them all. If not the list would seem to be a perfect argument why those types of guns aren't needed.

Aetius wrote:
Chumpy_McChump wrote:
Aetius wrote:

Since the El Paso / Dayton shootings:
<insert truly horrifying list of shootings>

Is this supposed to show a good thing?

The first list, yes - guns in those cases saved at least twenty lives.

Hooray! The scales are balanced! /s

“Aetius” wrote:

The second list points out the hypocrisy of promoting some mass shootings on national news - shooting that support a particular narrative - while ignoring the far more common mass shootings that occur nearly every day, except to use them as a statistic to support the narrative.

So the mass shooting numbers are artificially low because folks aren’t including the good mass shootings.

EDIT: Sidenote - portraying the first set of stories as “saving twenty lives” is disingenuous at best. Most of the stories are about people not committing robberies after guns are either brandished or fired. Shooting two would-be robbers at a 7-11 isn’t “saving lives”.

Aetius wrote:
Chumpy_McChump wrote:
Aetius wrote:

Since the El Paso / Dayton shootings:
<insert truly horrifying list of shootings>

Is this supposed to show a good thing?

The first list, yes - guns in those cases saved at least twenty lives.

What percentage of home invasions and robberies end with murder if the victim doesn't escalate? It's sure as hell not 100! You have no idea how many "lives were saved," only how many were ended.

I expect the number of people who tried to protect their home and were killed as a result isn't zero either.

Edit: chumpy-hausered.

Mixolyde wrote:
Aetius wrote:

The first list, yes - guns in those cases saved at least twenty lives.

What percentage of home invasions and robberies end with murder if the victim doesn't escalate? It's sure as hell not 100! You have no idea how many "lives were saved," only how many were ended.

To be fair, in the first part of that list there are nine incidents, many of them involving multiple attackers, but only two of them ended up dead, and in several cases they were not even wounded (they fled after shots were fired).

I wouldn't go so far as to say that twenty lives were saved, but there were probably more lives saved than there were taken. The victims also weren't always the ones who escalated, as in at least one case shots were fired and people injured before the victims were even really aware there was a situation.

I'm not a fan of guns, but at least several of these victims do seem to be the real "responsible gun owners" that we keep hearing fables about.

Think hard about this. Do you really want the US government to respond to the very minor threat of white supremacist terrorism the same way they responded to the very minor threat of Islamic terrorism?

I agree that white supremacy in terms of terrorism is merely a downstream byproduct of an entire nation that promotes institutional racism at all levels. Fix the root cause of the issue (white people being racist across all levels of society and power) and you'll solve the terrorism aspect.

We can't even get the FBI to monitor them let alone act on them.. They still think the Black Panthers or Antifa Super Soldiers are the real threat

https://www.theroot.com/florida-whit...

reread what I was confused by and am no (as) confused anymore.

When all you have is a hammer/AR15, every problem looks like a nail/target.

The pointless arguments are what keep us from passing legislation which eliminates legal access to firearms without mandatory training (take classes regularly), security (have one? keep it locked up), and registration (without which the first two won't work). We could make sure our citizens are both more proficient and security conscious along with reducing the violence - if we wanted to. We could propose and make some sort of change instead of pointing fingers at each other.

Without some pretty significant changes in power dynamics in government, I think registration is the farthest reach right now because of the devastating effect it would have on the secondary market for firearms.

I'm personally in favor of having a well-regulated militia that replaces both the current standing army and personal ownership of firearms. Ordinary citizens should have access to tanks (in the context of orderly, properly regulated state-level organisations) and have zero access to assault rifles and pistols outside of that context. Seems to be what the second amendment actually says to do.

Absent actually trying to follow the Constitution, it seems perfectly reasonable to have things like a national firearm registry that digitally tracks ownership and location of weapons. Doesn't interfere with the right to own firearms; in fact it makes ownership easier because it reduces theft.

If people don't want to maintain a properly secured gun safe in their house, we could have central community repositories for guns. Stick them at the police stations and give them federal grants to manage securing them.

I'm sure there's other creative solutions.

(As for what is politically possible and realistic, well, I guess we'll find out.)

It's possible that some people aren't responsible with the use of deadly weapons. It's also possible that our system has a lot of stuff in place to handle that but that isn't allowed to work so they have guns anyway.

Fox 6 News: Prosecutors: Man ‘admitted to shooting’ at good Samaritans who offered to help him

MILWAUKEE -- Charges were filed Friday, Aug. 9 against a West Allis, 22, accused of firing a handgun at some passersby whose only intention was to help.

Austin Fountaine faces the following criminal charges:

Endangering safety by use of a dangerous weapon (discharge firearm into vehicle or building)
Possession of a firearm contrary to injunction

Officers spoke with the reported victims of this shooting incident (who were in a blue vehicle). They saw the tow truck pull up behind the silver vehicle -- and slowed down. One witness "rolled down the passenger window and asked the male subject if he needed help or a ride." That witness told police "the male subject then fired a handgun at him and his vehicle." The vehicle sped off, but not before the witness vehicle was struck by gunfire. Officers noted "a bullet hole in the passenger front quarter panel, and a hole in the front driver's side tire."
Online court records showed at the time of this alleged incident, Fountaine was in violation of a court order following a domestic violence incident in May.

On a side note, domestic violence is a strong predictor of mass murder. Most mass murderers have a history of domestic violence. People without mental illness are three times more likely to commit violence in a given year than those with a mental health disorder.

We've got this idea that sane people don't commit mass murder, helped by portrayals in films and other media, but most actual real-life killers don't meet mental disorder criteria. They exhibit a lot of rage and resentment, but revenge fantasies aren't something you can treat.

Gremlin wrote:

I'm personally in favor of having a well-regulated militia that replaces both the current standing army and personal ownership of firearms. Ordinary citizens should have access to tanks (in the context of orderly, properly regulated state-level organisations) and have zero access to assault rifles and pistols outside of that context. Seems to be what the second amendment actually says to do.

Absent actually trying to follow the Constitution, it seems perfectly reasonable to have things like a national firearm registry that digitally tracks ownership and location of weapons. Doesn't interfere with the right to own firearms; in fact it makes ownership easier because it reduces theft.

If people don't want to maintain a properly secured gun safe in their house, we could have central community repositories for guns. Stick them at the police stations and give them federal grants to manage securing them.

I'm sure there's other creative solutions.

(As for what is politically possible and realistic, well, I guess we'll find out.)

If there is one thing that will disabuse your local Johnny Bad-Ass of his belief that his sh*tty AR will do a f*cking thing against a modern military, it would be having to complete TCGST and a full Table 12.

Tank gunnery is f*cking brutal.

Gremlin wrote:

It's possible that some people aren't responsible with the use of deadly weapons. It's also possible that our system has a lot of stuff in place to handle that but that isn't allowed to work so they have guns anyway.

Fox 6 News: Prosecutors: Man ‘admitted to shooting’ at good Samaritans who offered to help him

MILWAUKEE -- Charges were filed Friday, Aug. 9 against a West Allis, 22, accused of firing a handgun at some passersby whose only intention was to help.

Austin Fountaine faces the following criminal charges:

Endangering safety by use of a dangerous weapon (discharge firearm into vehicle or building)
Possession of a firearm contrary to injunction

Officers spoke with the reported victims of this shooting incident (who were in a blue vehicle). They saw the tow truck pull up behind the silver vehicle -- and slowed down. One witness "rolled down the passenger window and asked the male subject if he needed help or a ride." That witness told police "the male subject then fired a handgun at him and his vehicle." The vehicle sped off, but not before the witness vehicle was struck by gunfire. Officers noted "a bullet hole in the passenger front quarter panel, and a hole in the front driver's side tire."
Online court records showed at the time of this alleged incident, Fountaine was in violation of a court order following a domestic violence incident in May.

On a side note, domestic violence is a strong predictor of mass murder. Most mass murderers have a history of domestic violence. People without mental illness are three times more likely to commit violence in a given year than those with a mental health disorder.

We've got this idea that sane people don't commit mass murder, helped by portrayals in films and other media, but most actual real-life killers don't meet mental disorder criteria. They exhibit a lot of rage and resentment, but revenge fantasies aren't something you can treat.

Sane and insane are pretty useless concepts when it comes to discussing violent crimes and/or criminal behavior.

Once she noticed the argument between the man with the shovel and the driver, she fired the gun in their general direction and they left.

Damn. I am not convinced.

Ironically if the CDC had that guy participate in their Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System survey, his illegal and dangerous action would be counted as a defensive gun use (DGU) because the question asked is “During the last 12 months, have you confronted another person with a firearm, even if you did not fire it, to protect yourself, your property, or someone else?"

In fact, according to a Harvard study that had criminal court judges review summaries of DGUs gathered from surveys more than half of those incidents were actually illegal uses of firearms.

Seems like we're coming across quite a few of these, aren't we?

NEW MIDDLETOWN, Ohio -- An Ohio man has been arrested for making threats toward a local Jewish community center in New Middletown.

James Reardon Jr., 20, has been charged with telecommunications harassment and aggravated menacing and is being held in the Mahoning County Jail on $250,000 bond with a court hearing planned for Monday morning.

On Friday, the FBI Violent Crimes Task Force raided Reardon's house and seized a cache of weapons and ammunition, including dozens of round of ammo, multiple semi-automatic weapons, a gas mask and bulletproof armor.

"Grateful for the work of the FBI, local law enforcement and our community partners in the Youngstown Jewish community. We will continue to employ all our resources to stop the spread of white nationalism and violent extremism," the Anti-Defamation League in Cleveland tweeted.

Remember however, Dennis Prager made clear in a PragerU video, White Nationalism doesn't exist!

The thing that gets me about most of these recent arrests is that the ages are all in the same range. 18, 19, 20, 22, and so on. Honestly, increasingly, the targeted audience and method of self-radicalizing terrorism is pretty much identical to IS.

EDIT: Oh, and the calls to create a pure "Homeland" only for the accepted in-group. Reactionaries are so very similar, wherever in the world they are.

Prederick wrote:

Seems like we're coming across quite a few of these, aren't we?

NEW MIDDLETOWN, Ohio -- An Ohio man has been arrested for making threats toward a local Jewish community center in New Middletown.

James Reardon Jr., 20, has been charged with telecommunications harassment and aggravated menacing and is being held in the Mahoning County Jail on $250,000 bond with a court hearing planned for Monday morning.

On Friday, the FBI Violent Crimes Task Force raided Reardon's house and seized a cache of weapons and ammunition, including dozens of round of ammo, multiple semi-automatic weapons, a gas mask and bulletproof armor.

"Grateful for the work of the FBI, local law enforcement and our community partners in the Youngstown Jewish community. We will continue to employ all our resources to stop the spread of white nationalism and violent extremism," the Anti-Defamation League in Cleveland tweeted.

Remember however, Dennis Prager made clear in a PragerU video, White Nationalism doesn't exist!

The thing that gets me about most of these recent arrests is that the ages are all in the same range. 18, 19, 20, 22, and so on. Honestly, increasingly, the targeted audience and method of self-radicalizing terrorism is pretty much identical to IS.

EDIT: Oh, and the calls to create a pure "Homeland" only for the accepted in-group. Reactionaries are so very similar, wherever in the world they are.

As an aside, I am so tired of the Right Wing ads on YouTube lately - Prager U and the Right Wing Rag that they’ve been promoting - the one with all the finger snaps. Jesus, it’s ridiculous and awful on all levels. I feel that free speech has almost abandoned me at this stage.

But wait. There's more.

CNN wrote:

A Florida man has been charged for threatening to commit a mass shooting after his ex-girlfriend alerted authorities to a series of ominous text messages he sent her.

25-year-old Tristan Scott Wix was arrested on Friday in a Winn-Dixie parking lot in Daytona Beach Shores, the Volusia County Sheriff's Office said in a news release.

Volusia County Sheriff Michael Chitwood said on CNN Sunday that Wix had sent the texts to his ex-girlfriend, who showed the messages to authorities.

"When you look at this kid's background, he is the profile of a shooter," Chitwood said. "He lost his job, he lost his girlfriend, he's depressed, he's got the ammunition and he wants to become known for being the most prolific killer in American history."

Wix, of Daytona Beach, wrote about wanting to open fire on a large crowd of people, the sheriff's office said. "A good 100 kills would be nice," he wrote in one message, adding that he already had a location in mind. So far, Wix has not told investigators where he wanted to carry out the shooting, Chitwood said.

"A school is a weak target.. id be more likely to open fire on a large crowd of people from over 3 miles away.. I'd wanna break a world record for longest confirmed kill ever," another message reads, according to the sheriff's office.

Wix said he wanted to die and "have fun doing it."

OG_slinger wrote:

But wait. There's more.

CNN wrote:

A Florida man has been charged for threatening to commit a mass shooting after his ex-girlfriend alerted authorities to a series of ominous text messages he sent her.

25-year-old Tristan Scott Wix was arrested on Friday in a Winn-Dixie parking lot in Daytona Beach Shores, the Volusia County Sheriff's Office said in a news release.

Volusia County Sheriff Michael Chitwood said on CNN Sunday that Wix had sent the texts to his ex-girlfriend, who showed the messages to authorities.

"When you look at this kid's background, he is the profile of a shooter," Chitwood said. "He lost his job, he lost his girlfriend, he's depressed, he's got the ammunition and he wants to become known for being the most prolific killer in American history."

Wix, of Daytona Beach, wrote about wanting to open fire on a large crowd of people, the sheriff's office said. "A good 100 kills would be nice," he wrote in one message, adding that he already had a location in mind. So far, Wix has not told investigators where he wanted to carry out the shooting, Chitwood said.

"A school is a weak target.. id be more likely to open fire on a large crowd of people from over 3 miles away.. I'd wanna break a world record for longest confirmed kill ever," another message reads, according to the sheriff's office.

Wix said he wanted to die and "have fun doing it."

Three miles away? Is he shooting a howitzer? Jfc these people.

OG_slinger wrote:

"When you look at this kid's background, he is the profile of a shooter," Chitwood said. "He lost his job, he lost his girlfriend, he's depressed, he's got the ammunition and he wants to become known for being the most prolific killer in American history."

Now I wonder which one of these issues of the human condition that is easiest to fix...

Reaper81 wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:

But wait. There's more.

CNN wrote:

A Florida man has been charged for threatening to commit a mass shooting after his ex-girlfriend alerted authorities to a series of ominous text messages he sent her.

25-year-old Tristan Scott Wix was arrested on Friday in a Winn-Dixie parking lot in Daytona Beach Shores, the Volusia County Sheriff's Office said in a news release.

Volusia County Sheriff Michael Chitwood said on CNN Sunday that Wix had sent the texts to his ex-girlfriend, who showed the messages to authorities.

"When you look at this kid's background, he is the profile of a shooter," Chitwood said. "He lost his job, he lost his girlfriend, he's depressed, he's got the ammunition and he wants to become known for being the most prolific killer in American history."

Wix, of Daytona Beach, wrote about wanting to open fire on a large crowd of people, the sheriff's office said. "A good 100 kills would be nice," he wrote in one message, adding that he already had a location in mind. So far, Wix has not told investigators where he wanted to carry out the shooting, Chitwood said.

"A school is a weak target.. id be more likely to open fire on a large crowd of people from over 3 miles away.. I'd wanna break a world record for longest confirmed kill ever," another message reads, according to the sheriff's office.

Wix said he wanted to die and "have fun doing it."

Three miles away? Is he shooting a howitzer? Jfc these people.

Exactly what I was thinking.