[Discussion] Mass Shootings - Yeah, we need a thread just for this...

This year is the deadliest year ever in terms of mass shootings. In a political climate of polarization, it becomes harder to suss out legitimate information from the misinformation propagated by those with political agendas. Complicating this more is the continual resistance of 2nd amendment advocates to allow for political talk surrounding these massacres. This will involve political discussion to see if there are ways we can all agree might be good ways to prevent mass shootings.

This discussion should involve the details of any current, or future has shooting, and how they compare to past mass shootings. How are they the same? How are they different? Do gun laws have an impact? Does the race of the shooter affect how we treat them? What makes one a hate crime and one an act or terrorism? Are these shootings the price of freedom?

Edwin wrote:

Note: Armor piercing is only restricted on handguns and unrestricted on rifles.

Because... of course it is. All those kevlar-wearing deer ain't gonna hunt themselves.

Wink_and_the_Gun wrote:
Edwin wrote:

Note: Armor piercing is only restricted on handguns and unrestricted on rifles.

Because... of course it is. All those kevlar-wearing deer ain't gonna hunt themselves.

Not if we don't get rid of these ridiculous gun control laws to those deer and arm up to preemptively protect themselves.

It doesn’t really surprise me that there are no restrictions on rifles. Armor piercing ammunition isn’t likely to make a difference for body armor. The only place I see it making a difference is against vehicle armor and only with heavy caliber weapons.

The guy was manufacturing and selling explosive tipped rounds. What on earth would you need that for as a civilian EXCEPT to go on a crazy cop killing murder spree?

thrawn82 wrote:

The guy was manufacturing and selling explosive tipped rounds. What on earth would you need that for as a civilian EXCEPT to go on a crazy cop killing murder spree?

Red Dawn is a documentary to some people.

thrawn82 wrote:

The guy was manufacturing and selling explosive tipped rounds. What on earth would you need that for as a civilian EXCEPT to go on a crazy cop killing murder spree?

Self defense, obviously.

And possibly taking down a corrupt government.

BUT ONLY THOSE TWO THINGS.

I feel like his point in buying AP ammo wasn't so much for body armour, but being more confident shooting "through" possible cover (cars, etc).

I love the vendor - "I didn't do 'nothin illegal" - as he panic-sells off his stock, so he's not caught with any. Uh-huh.... suuuure, buddy.

OG_slinger wrote:

Man who sold ammo to Vegas shooter is charged with making armor-piercing bullets

Chicago Tribune wrote:

*snip*

Haig told investigators that when Paddock bought the ammunition at his home in suburban Phoenix, Paddock went to his car to get gloves and put them on before taking the box from Haig, the complaint said.

"I had no contribution to what Paddock did," Haig told reporters earlier Friday, adding that there was nothing unusual about the type or quantity of ammunition the shooter bought. "I had no way to see into his mind."

*snip*

Paddock bought nearly 800 rounds of incendiary ammunition from Haig (and who knows how many armor-piercing rounds) and Haig didn't find that suspicious? How many rounds of ammunition do people have to buy before the purchase becomes suspicious?

Also nice to know Haig was illegally manufacturing armor-piercing ammunition and selling it throughout the country. I highly doubt he and his partner are the only responsible gun enthusiasts breaking the law like that.

Maybe I don't know much about the 'murican gun culture, but I think I might be a little suspicious about the motives of somebody specifically going to get and put on gloves before taking a box of ammunition just bought.

Maybe that is just me though. Maybe that is the normal way you buy your tracer and armour piercing ammo before going deer hunting.

Senkrad wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:

Man who sold ammo to Vegas shooter is charged with making armor-piercing bullets

Chicago Tribune wrote:

*snip*

Haig told investigators that when Paddock bought the ammunition at his home in suburban Phoenix, Paddock went to his car to get gloves and put them on before taking the box from Haig, the complaint said.

"I had no contribution to what Paddock did," Haig told reporters earlier Friday, adding that there was nothing unusual about the type or quantity of ammunition the shooter bought. "I had no way to see into his mind."

*snip*

Paddock bought nearly 800 rounds of incendiary ammunition from Haig (and who knows how many armor-piercing rounds) and Haig didn't find that suspicious? How many rounds of ammunition do people have to buy before the purchase becomes suspicious?

Also nice to know Haig was illegally manufacturing armor-piercing ammunition and selling it throughout the country. I highly doubt he and his partner are the only responsible gun enthusiasts breaking the law like that.

Maybe I don't know much about the 'murican gun culture, but I think I might be a little suspicious about the motives of somebody specifically going to get and put on gloves before taking a box of ammunition just bought.

Maybe that is just me though. Maybe that is the normal way you buy your tracer and armour piercing ammo before going deer hunting.

I tell you, those high rank up-armored deer are a real PITA

Shooting reported at Florida high school

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/14/us/fl...

Removed unhelpful post. I just fee rage and helplessness every time this happens. Hope no GWJer kids were in this.

Spoiler:

Amount the NRA donated to Rubio's campaign

How sad is it that (so far) 17 people died in this one incident after so many other incidents and it's so both not unusual at this point and the expectations are so low that anyone will even attempt to do anything to fix it that it is no longer overwhelming these message boards with posts.

I accept that we are an imperfect country. I didn't think I'd be forced to accept how little we are willing to work on even the most basic things like whether it's worth trying to stop people from killing our children in schools.
My children have had more training for active shooting scenarios than for earthquakes and I think it's feeling like the more likely scenario.

Maybe this latest shooting will save Remington.

How many days until the NRA releases a new one of their videos calling liberals traitors?

I got 14.

Edit to add - the child is safe

IMAGE(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWCjK_bXcAEkQkL.jpg:large)

Rahmen wrote:

How sad is it that (so far) 17 people died in this one incident after so many other incidents and it's so both not unusual at this point and the expectations are so low that anyone will even attempt to do anything to fix it that it is no longer overwhelming these message boards with posts.

Eh, I'm just a pragmatist at this point.

America values gun ownership over human life.

Until that flips, I will not be shocked by shocking events.

"Too soon" really means: "Forcing me to defend this position right now can only make me look like a colossal sh*t."

mudbunny wrote:

Edit to add - the child is safe

IMAGE(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWCjK_bXcAEkQkL.jpg:large)

2018 is watching children live tweet mass shootings while other kids who've survived school shootings talk them through it.

https://twitter.com/Muna_Mire/status...

New Gun Policies Won’t Stop Mass Shootings, but People Can

For the life of me, I do not get this take, and I have tried. David French, as many others like him, seems to treat mass shootings as if they are acts of God, not entirely unlike a hurricane or a tornado, things that we can do nothing about but brace ourselves for the occasional destruction, recover and go on about our lives. There's no acknowledgement of the nations that proactively have taken on this issue with legislation, no consideration that the United States is not the only nation on earth with mental health issues but the one that makes access to firearms so easy...

...and that's before we get to the many instances when violence gets people like Mr. French to call for changes in policy and legislation. Violence in the inner city? Stop and frisk, broken windows policing. A Islamist terror attack? Greater surveillance of mosques, a travel ban on majority-Muslim nations. But somehow, this gets met with the tacit acceptance of "madmen will kill anyway, and legislation cannot stop it." Which is true! But we have plenty of laws, strong laws against things that might happen anyway.

It's amazing that this is what America is right now, and that in a week, this will have been memory-holed completely. I remember it felt like the entire nation stopped when Columbine happened. Now we've already largely let the shooting of nearly 500 people fade into memory like it's just a thing we do now.

From the outside, firearm-related violence seems to be normalising to a level you would normally expect in active conflict zones, even down to the air of casual fatigue with which it's discussed in general conversation. It's really scary to watch.

I'm incredibly sad that in a few years, I'm going to be sending my kid to school in a nation where lockdown and active shooter drills are standard practice for 5 year olds, because we've had recent examples of 5 year olds being shot in school. I can't even imagine the psychological toll being inflicted on an entire generation by this. In addition to the people being directly injured or killed in incidents, you have the lasting psychological scars on every person in the school, the community impacted, and an entire nation of school kids who see the reports and know that this could easily be them.

It's going to be decades before we figure out the long-term effects of all of this. Meanwhile, the Thoughts and Prayers brigade shrugs, says they're nothing we can possibly do, and how dare you make this into a partisan issue, you monster.

DC Malleus wrote:

From the outside, firearm-related violence seems to be normalising to a level you would normally expect in active conflict zones, even down to the air of casual fatigue with which it's discussed in general conversation. It's really scary to watch.

I saw a comment someone made on Reddit that they couldn't believe that a video from a school in Florida was giving them flashbacks of their time in Afghanistan.

Yeah, I wonder that about the people who want to arm teachers as well. Why should we, ostensibly the richest, most prosperous nation on earth, have to send our children to school with protection similar to what schoolkids in Helmand Province scared of a local insurgency might need?

halfwaywrong wrote:
DC Malleus wrote:

From the outside, firearm-related violence seems to be normalising to a level you would normally expect in active conflict zones, even down to the air of casual fatigue with which it's discussed in general conversation. It's really scary to watch.

I saw a comment someone made on Reddit that they couldn't believe that a video from a school in Florida was giving them flashbacks of their time in Afghanistan.

I saw the video and it made me physically sick. I started having an actual panic attack and had to sit down, take some medication and do coping exercises.

I can’t imagine being a kid there.

I had the faintest of hope that some of the cell phone footage, particularly with sound, might be enough to trigger the nation to finally do something.

The sound of the shots was horrifying, made all the worse that it is a group of kids hiding from them. Honestly, it makes want to confront every “collector” and “hobbyist” with it. They should be ashamed that the power and fury of the gun that gets them off is terrorizing our children.

Gun enthusiasts are hurting our country. Full stop. Yes, the second amendment should be repealed. No more f*cking debates about what it means. It no longer applies to a modern world.

As mass shootings are increasingly incorporating AR 15's instead of handguns, the lethality is predictably increasing as well. I remember the argument used to be that we shouldn't regulate AR 15's because so few of them were used in deadly shootings. Much of that had to do with the fact that relatively few of them were in civilian hands.... until now.

Sigh.

Chaz wrote:

I'm incredibly sad that in a few years, I'm going to be sending my kid to school in a nation where lockdown and active shooter drills are standard practice for 5 year olds, because we've had recent examples of 5 year olds being shot in school. I can't even imagine the psychological toll being inflicted on an entire generation by this.

Two possible outcomes:

They grow up to say, "This sh*t has to stop."

They tell their grandkids, "I used to have to walk five miles uphill both ways to school--while being shot at!"

I feel like I have to keep repeating this every time some asshole says "he would do this with a bomb".

Quote me freely.

It is worth noting that, after the Oklahoma City federal building bombing, producers of ammonium nitrate fertilizer took concerted action to prevent the ease of using their products in this manner again. They didn't make it impossible obviously, but they made it significantly more difficult and time consuming. So much so that it has not been used in a mass casualty event since.

They, in conjunction with federal efforts, tightened tracking of inventory, but also began "pelletizing" their fertilizer in a process that encapsulated the key ingredient in a water soluble caplet. This made it unsuitable for mixture with fuel oil until the barrier was dissolved with water.... and redried to remove the water. The process is, as mentioned, pretty onerous.

The firearms industry, otoh, appears to have had the opposite reaction to Sandy Hook and has used every massacre since as a marketing opportunity to sell more and more capable firearms. And with every similar incident, they exploit yet another marketing opportunity.