The state of US tax code and upcoming proposed changes.
I can't see how this is still allowed to use reconciliation when their numbers aren't even remotely solid.
I can't see how they were allowed to pass it in the first place when their numbers weren't even remotely solid, and look where we are now.
Still, accidentally passing a $300 Billion tax hike on business is quite an own goal.
In conference committee they technically can't add new stuff (though there are some ways around that). The way it's supposed to work is that one side amends the other side's bill, which leads to an obvious reconciliation process: just negotiate on the amendments. In this case, the Senate gutted the entire House bill and replaced it (with the idea that the House would just rubber stamp the thing). Adding stuff is going to be difficult, but it might happen.
When they're done, they'll produce a conference report that uses some combination of the two bills. The result goes to the floor of both houses for a straight up-or-down vote (though they can also send it back to committee). Because this is the budget, there are limits on filibustering, so the vote will be relatively straightforward.
Reaper81 wrote:Stele wrote:Still disappointed in McCain. He's not likely to run again. Would be a good chance to be the maverick he's always claimed to be, and also to stick it to Trump for all the shit he said about liking soldiers who don't get captured.
He’s too much of a coward for that.
Easy tiger. If McCain is a coward, I shudder to think what that makes the rest of us who didn't hold out through years of torture.
That’s not the point. We’re being tested right now and what matters is how we pass *this* test.
This has been what's top of my mind since 2015 and finally someone else put it in words.
"It would take a lot more for the United States to degenerate into civil war, or to turn into a killing field. But if that’s the case, it is because of our affluence and our institutions, not because our political leaders—or our neighbors, or our spouses, or ourselves—are more moral and courageous. And that, at least to me, is one small and elusive part of what we talk about when we talk about Donald Trump."
If we can’t have courage now, then when?
Nomad wrote:Reaper81 wrote:Stele wrote:Still disappointed in McCain. He's not likely to run again. Would be a good chance to be the maverick he's always claimed to be, and also to stick it to Trump for all the shit he said about liking soldiers who don't get captured.
He’s too much of a coward for that.
Easy tiger. If McCain is a coward, I shudder to think what that makes the rest of us who didn't hold out through years of torture.
That’s not the point. We’re being tested right now and what matters is how we pass *this* test.
This has been what's top of my mind since 2015 and finally someone else put it in words.
"It would take a lot more for the United States to degenerate into civil war, or to turn into a killing field. But if that’s the case, it is because of our affluence and our institutions, not because our political leaders—or our neighbors, or our spouses, or ourselves—are more moral and courageous. And that, at least to me, is one small and elusive part of what we talk about when we talk about Donald Trump."If we can’t have courage now, then when?
Holding up McCain's time under torture in problematic because he didn't actually hold out in the way that description implies. He folded under torture and signed a false confession. I don't say that to condemn him, i don't think anyone would be able to hold up under the conditions he was put under, but it isn't right up lift him up as a paragon of strength and virtue to spat in the eyes of his torturers. He was an honorable soldier, who became a POW, and survived the experience. He deserves respect and honor for having done that.
However, having lived through that experience doesn't give him blanket absolution when his courage fails now and he folds under the pressure of his party. It's not an unexpected move from McCain anyway. McCain and Speech Maker and McCain the Senate Voter have always been two people with little resemblance to each other.
DSGamer wrote:Nomad wrote:Reaper81 wrote:Stele wrote:Still disappointed in McCain. He's not likely to run again. Would be a good chance to be the maverick he's always claimed to be, and also to stick it to Trump for all the shit he said about liking soldiers who don't get captured.
He’s too much of a coward for that.
Easy tiger. If McCain is a coward, I shudder to think what that makes the rest of us who didn't hold out through years of torture.
That’s not the point. We’re being tested right now and what matters is how we pass *this* test.
This has been what's top of my mind since 2015 and finally someone else put it in words.
"It would take a lot more for the United States to degenerate into civil war, or to turn into a killing field. But if that’s the case, it is because of our affluence and our institutions, not because our political leaders—or our neighbors, or our spouses, or ourselves—are more moral and courageous. And that, at least to me, is one small and elusive part of what we talk about when we talk about Donald Trump."If we can’t have courage now, then when?
Holding up McCain's time under torture in problematic because he didn't actually hold out in the way that description implies. He folded under torture and signed a false confession. I don't say that to condemn him, i don't think anyone would be able to hold up under the conditions he was put under, but it isn't right up lift him up as a paragon of strength and virtue to spat in the eyes of his torturers. He was an honorable soldier, who became a POW, and survived the experience. He deserves respect and honor for having done that.
However, having lived through that experience doesn't give him blanket absolution when his courage fails now and he folds under the pressure of his party. It's not an unexpected move from McCain anyway. McCain and Speech Maker and McCain the Senate Voter have always been two people with little resemblance to each other.
Agree to disagree I guess. I still think that calling someone with McCain's history a coward is a very poor choice of words.
thrawn82 wrote:DSGamer wrote:Nomad wrote:Reaper81 wrote:Stele wrote:Still disappointed in McCain. He's not likely to run again. Would be a good chance to be the maverick he's always claimed to be, and also to stick it to Trump for all the shit he said about liking soldiers who don't get captured.
He’s too much of a coward for that.
Easy tiger. If McCain is a coward, I shudder to think what that makes the rest of us who didn't hold out through years of torture.
That’s not the point. We’re being tested right now and what matters is how we pass *this* test.
This has been what's top of my mind since 2015 and finally someone else put it in words.
"It would take a lot more for the United States to degenerate into civil war, or to turn into a killing field. But if that’s the case, it is because of our affluence and our institutions, not because our political leaders—or our neighbors, or our spouses, or ourselves—are more moral and courageous. And that, at least to me, is one small and elusive part of what we talk about when we talk about Donald Trump."If we can’t have courage now, then when?
Holding up McCain's time under torture in problematic because he didn't actually hold out in the way that description implies. He folded under torture and signed a false confession. I don't say that to condemn him, i don't think anyone would be able to hold up under the conditions he was put under, but it isn't right up lift him up as a paragon of strength and virtue to spat in the eyes of his torturers. He was an honorable soldier, who became a POW, and survived the experience. He deserves respect and honor for having done that.
However, having lived through that experience doesn't give him blanket absolution when his courage fails now and he folds under the pressure of his party. It's not an unexpected move from McCain anyway. McCain and Speech Maker and McCain the Senate Voter have always been two people with little resemblance to each other.
Agree to disagree I guess. I still think that calling someone with McCain's history a coward is a very poor choice of words.
He may have been courageous as a POW. Right now, though, in this test he’s failing. If authoritarianism consumes the US he will be forever remembered as a coward of the worst kind. With Flake and Corker and others. A coward who knew the risks and let it happen because of what? Re-election? His legacy?
thrawn82 wrote:DSGamer wrote:Nomad wrote:Reaper81 wrote:Stele wrote:Still disappointed in McCain. He's not likely to run again. Would be a good chance to be the maverick he's always claimed to be, and also to stick it to Trump for all the shit he said about liking soldiers who don't get captured.
He’s too much of a coward for that.
Easy tiger. If McCain is a coward, I shudder to think what that makes the rest of us who didn't hold out through years of torture.
That’s not the point. We’re being tested right now and what matters is how we pass *this* test.
This has been what's top of my mind since 2015 and finally someone else put it in words.
"It would take a lot more for the United States to degenerate into civil war, or to turn into a killing field. But if that’s the case, it is because of our affluence and our institutions, not because our political leaders—or our neighbors, or our spouses, or ourselves—are more moral and courageous. And that, at least to me, is one small and elusive part of what we talk about when we talk about Donald Trump."If we can’t have courage now, then when?
Holding up McCain's time under torture in problematic because he didn't actually hold out in the way that description implies. He folded under torture and signed a false confession. I don't say that to condemn him, i don't think anyone would be able to hold up under the conditions he was put under, but it isn't right up lift him up as a paragon of strength and virtue to spat in the eyes of his torturers. He was an honorable soldier, who became a POW, and survived the experience. He deserves respect and honor for having done that.
However, having lived through that experience doesn't give him blanket absolution when his courage fails now and he folds under the pressure of his party. It's not an unexpected move from McCain anyway. McCain and Speech Maker and McCain the Senate Voter have always been two people with little resemblance to each other.
Agree to disagree I guess. I still think that calling someone with McCain's history a coward is a very poor choice of words.
I've always believed courage and cowardice are in the moment things, that a person can be courageous in one setting and craven in another. That neither is a brand that cannot be erased.
I do not see any courage in the way McCain behaves in the senate, and that makes no comment about anything he accomplished or suffered in Vietnam.
thrawn82 wrote:DSGamer wrote:Nomad wrote:Reaper81 wrote:Stele wrote:Still disappointed in McCain. He's not likely to run again. Would be a good chance to be the maverick he's always claimed to be, and also to stick it to Trump for all the shit he said about liking soldiers who don't get captured.
He’s too much of a coward for that.
Easy tiger. If McCain is a coward, I shudder to think what that makes the rest of us who didn't hold out through years of torture.
That’s not the point. We’re being tested right now and what matters is how we pass *this* test.
This has been what's top of my mind since 2015 and finally someone else put it in words.
"It would take a lot more for the United States to degenerate into civil war, or to turn into a killing field. But if that’s the case, it is because of our affluence and our institutions, not because our political leaders—or our neighbors, or our spouses, or ourselves—are more moral and courageous. And that, at least to me, is one small and elusive part of what we talk about when we talk about Donald Trump."If we can’t have courage now, then when?
Holding up McCain's time under torture in problematic because he didn't actually hold out in the way that description implies. He folded under torture and signed a false confession. I don't say that to condemn him, i don't think anyone would be able to hold up under the conditions he was put under, but it isn't right up lift him up as a paragon of strength and virtue to spat in the eyes of his torturers. He was an honorable soldier, who became a POW, and survived the experience. He deserves respect and honor for having done that.
However, having lived through that experience doesn't give him blanket absolution when his courage fails now and he folds under the pressure of his party. It's not an unexpected move from McCain anyway. McCain and Speech Maker and McCain the Senate Voter have always been two people with little resemblance to each other.
Agree to disagree I guess. I still think that calling someone with McCain's history a coward is a very poor choice of words.
So any comments on the actual tax bill? Or just in here to poo poo us other forum posters as usual?
Nomad wrote:thrawn82 wrote:DSGamer wrote:Nomad wrote:Reaper81 wrote:Stele wrote:Still disappointed in McCain. He's not likely to run again. Would be a good chance to be the maverick he's always claimed to be, and also to stick it to Trump for all the shit he said about liking soldiers who don't get captured.
He’s too much of a coward for that.
Easy tiger. If McCain is a coward, I shudder to think what that makes the rest of us who didn't hold out through years of torture.
That’s not the point. We’re being tested right now and what matters is how we pass *this* test.
This has been what's top of my mind since 2015 and finally someone else put it in words.
"It would take a lot more for the United States to degenerate into civil war, or to turn into a killing field. But if that’s the case, it is because of our affluence and our institutions, not because our political leaders—or our neighbors, or our spouses, or ourselves—are more moral and courageous. And that, at least to me, is one small and elusive part of what we talk about when we talk about Donald Trump."If we can’t have courage now, then when?
Holding up McCain's time under torture in problematic because he didn't actually hold out in the way that description implies. He folded under torture and signed a false confession. I don't say that to condemn him, i don't think anyone would be able to hold up under the conditions he was put under, but it isn't right up lift him up as a paragon of strength and virtue to spat in the eyes of his torturers. He was an honorable soldier, who became a POW, and survived the experience. He deserves respect and honor for having done that.
However, having lived through that experience doesn't give him blanket absolution when his courage fails now and he folds under the pressure of his party. It's not an unexpected move from McCain anyway. McCain and Speech Maker and McCain the Senate Voter have always been two people with little resemblance to each other.
Agree to disagree I guess. I still think that calling someone with McCain's history a coward is a very poor choice of words.
So any comments on the actual tax bill? Or just in here to poo poo us other forum posters as usual?
I think it’s a a depressing example of what our current political train wreck is capable of. Thanks for asking in such a sweet way. 
The tax bill, if passed, would force my sister-in-law to drop out of school and, therefore, I have little respect for people who voted for it. Better?
karmajay wrote:Nomad wrote:thrawn82 wrote:DSGamer wrote:Nomad wrote:Reaper81 wrote:Stele wrote:Still disappointed in McCain. He's not likely to run again. Would be a good chance to be the maverick he's always claimed to be, and also to stick it to Trump for all the shit he said about liking soldiers who don't get captured.
He’s too much of a coward for that.
Easy tiger. If McCain is a coward, I shudder to think what that makes the rest of us who didn't hold out through years of torture.
That’s not the point. We’re being tested right now and what matters is how we pass *this* test.
This has been what's top of my mind since 2015 and finally someone else put it in words.
"It would take a lot more for the United States to degenerate into civil war, or to turn into a killing field. But if that’s the case, it is because of our affluence and our institutions, not because our political leaders—or our neighbors, or our spouses, or ourselves—are more moral and courageous. And that, at least to me, is one small and elusive part of what we talk about when we talk about Donald Trump."If we can’t have courage now, then when?
Holding up McCain's time under torture in problematic because he didn't actually hold out in the way that description implies. He folded under torture and signed a false confession. I don't say that to condemn him, i don't think anyone would be able to hold up under the conditions he was put under, but it isn't right up lift him up as a paragon of strength and virtue to spat in the eyes of his torturers. He was an honorable soldier, who became a POW, and survived the experience. He deserves respect and honor for having done that.
However, having lived through that experience doesn't give him blanket absolution when his courage fails now and he folds under the pressure of his party. It's not an unexpected move from McCain anyway. McCain and Speech Maker and McCain the Senate Voter have always been two people with little resemblance to each other.
Agree to disagree I guess. I still think that calling someone with McCain's history a coward is a very poor choice of words.
So any comments on the actual tax bill? Or just in here to poo poo us other forum posters as usual?
I think it’s a a depressing example of what our current political train wreck is capable of. Thanks for asking in such a sweet way. ;)
#1 - I was talking about McCain’s moral failings. Not yours.
#2 - The tax bill will materially make people’s lives worse. Some people I love. I have a hard time rushing to McCain’s defense when I think about my sister-in-laws career change getting cut short because they raised her taxes to give a tax break to Ivanka Trump.
CNN has an article about the tentative tax deal reach between the Senate and the House today.
Here's what Republican negotiators as of Wednesday evening had in the plan:- The corporate rate would be reduced to 21%, from 35%. That is an additional point added from the 20% originally proposed in the House and Senate versions. It would take effect in 2018.
- The top individual tax rate would be set at 37%, down from the 39.6% proposed in the House and 38.5% in the Senate.
- The State and Local Tax deduction will be expanded, beyond just property taxes, to include income tax. It would be capped at $10,000.
- The corporate alternative minimum tax, included at the last minute in the Senate version, would be fully repealed.
- The individual alternative minimum tax would remain, but the threshold would be tweaked to exclude any individual under $500,000 or family below $1 million.
- The mortgage interest deduction threshold -- dropped to $500,000 in the House and left untouched in the Senate -- would be set at $750,000.
- The rate for pass-through income -- business entities like s-corporations and partnerships that pay taxes through the individual side -- would be determined by a 20% deduction, 3% lower than the Senate version.
- The estate tax exemption would be doubled, but the tax would not be repealed entirely, as it was in the House proposal.
- The Obamacare individual mandate to have health insurance would be repealed.
- A House provision that proposed taxing graduate school tuition is not included in the final deal.These deductions will remain untouched (they were all repealed in the House bill, left alone in the Senate bill). Of note, repeal of these deductions were some of the most controversial elements of the House plan. None will be repealed in the final version.
- Medical expense deduction
- Tax-free graduate school tuition waivers
- Private activity bonds
- Student loan interest deduction
- Teacher spending deduction
It's great that they decided not to repeal those last five, but the ACA individual mandate repeal is still in, which makes the whole thing even worse than if it was just the corporate and wealthy tax cut. If this doesn't cost them Collins' vote, then she's lost any goodwill she'd built up.
This remains a terrible, terrible bill.
It's great that they decided not to repeal those last five, but the ACA individual mandate repeal is still in, which makes the whole thing even worse than if it was just the corporate and wealthy tax cut. If this doesn't cost them Collins' vote, then she's lost any goodwill she'd built up.
This remains a terrible, terrible bill.
Exactly.
They couldn't repeal Obamacare after multiple tries, so they're cutting the legs out from under it with this tax bill. It's bullshit.
Are they cutting out any of the hundreds of loopholes so corporations will actually pay taxes close to what the rate is?
Are they cutting out any of the hundreds of loopholes so corporations will actually pay taxes close to what the rate is?
Hahahahahaha...
They closed the loophole they accidentally put in to keep corporations paying a reasonable minimum tax, so no, no they are not trying to do that.
Is the abortion provision still in?
As bad as this still is, I think it will pass now. Most of the easiest to fight against points, other than the mandate, are corrected.
As bad as this still is, I think it will pass now. Most of the easiest to fight against points, other than the mandate, are corrected.
It was going to pass anyway. Short of one or two GOP senators taking a stand, which is super unlikely, the GOP was always going to pass tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy, no matter how badly it hit everyone else.
I feel like with this tax bill and the FCC selling out the internet... they are in full on "What are you gonna do about it?!" mode at this point.
I feel like with this tax bill and the FCC selling out the internet... they are in full on "What are you gonna do about it?!" mode at this point.
Welcome to the One Party system.
I feel like with this tax bill and the FCC selling out the internet... they are in full on "What are you gonna do about it?!" mode at this point.
We've been there this whole time. The only reason the ACA repeal failed by itself was because they couldn't get their own house in order, and notice that when that failed, they just snuck it into another bill and are about to pass it that way.
I'm personally conflicted by this tax bill. As a private practice physician, I think my group will easily be able to change our structure to take advantage of the pass-through clause which will apparently drop my income tax to 20% (since this is basically how we are paid already). And now that AMT is eliminated for all but the very very high earners, I won't be hit with that like I have been every other year. Plus my wife and I will get a doubling of our personal deduction. So this is probably going to result in a substantial boost in my take home income. Which I frankly don't really need since we have been doing just fine.
But our nurses who are paid an hourly wage won't get this benefit so it is going to be a huge tax cut for those in our company who need it least.
Yeah, even though I'll personally benefit, this is a horrible policy change.
My wife and I will get a sizable take-home increase. If poor folks in red states want to shovel money at people doing well in blue states because of liberal tears or something... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I wouldn't be surprised if I wind up with more money too. But I don't want it. I want schools fully funded. I want everyone to have good health coverage. I want the environment and our natural resources protected. I want those who need help feeding themselves to have it. A few thousand extra for me will be nice to save, but I'm happy to give that up in exchange for those other things.
Rubio is currently a no vote. Wants child tax credit expanded.
Rubio is currently a no vote. Wants child tax credit expanded.
That makes sense. He's not up for reelection again until 2022, but his support in Florida is pretty shaky, I see this as a good will gesture toward his cuban base there. (Is it bad that I don't for a second think it's because he cares about kids?)
That makes sense. He's not up for reelection again until 2022, but his support in Florida is pretty shaky, I see this as a good will gesture toward his cuban base there. (Is it bad that I don't for a second think it's because he cares about kids?)
"Won't someone think of the children?!" is something you say, not something you do.
Chairman_Mao wrote:Rubio is currently a no vote. Wants child tax credit expanded.
That makes sense. He's not up for reelection again until 2022, but his support in Florida is pretty shaky, I see this as a good will gesture toward his cuban base there. (Is it bad that I don't for a second think it's because he cares about kids?)
The AARP has been strongly against this tax bill. Something a senator from Florida should keep in mind.
(Bloomberg) -- GOP Sen. Bob Corker says he will support compromise legislation to overhaul U.S. tax code after voting no on earlier Senate version.
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