[Discussion] NeoGAF is gone

NeoGAF is down, gone forever?

Given the apparent issue with Neogaf is the site admin sexually harassed women I’m not sure what that has to do with echo chambers or ‘proving’ any particular theory about the viability of different websites.

If the conversation spins away from the topic at hand I’ll be moving it to DnD.

cheeba wrote:

And echo chambers like that all seem to fail horrifically because when you police opinion so harshly, it's just a matter of time before you create a situation where certain sneetches have stars on their bellies and others do not.

Just so that I understand, you're probably expecting GWJ to be next on the chopping block for "echo chamber" failure? Because by your typical vaugebook posting I'm left to assume your random appearance after months (years?) of absence has been to show us all the errors of our ways?

CptDomano wrote:
cheeba wrote:

And echo chambers like that all seem to fail horrifically because when you police opinion so harshly, it's just a matter of time before you create a situation where certain sneetches have stars on their bellies and others do not.

Just so that I understand, you're probably expecting GWJ to be next on the chopping block for "echo chamber" failure? Because by your typical vaugebook posting I'm left to assume your random appearance after months (years?) of absence has been to show us all the errors of our ways?

Objection, speculation. I recall Cheeba making his amends some time ago.

Cheeba my argument as to why Neogaf came to such an (apparently) quick end is what Certis just said, so there's nothing else to discuss (though the Kotaku article mentions that people were getting frustrated with the strict banning because the bans apparently started to target progressive points of view) until we hear more from the people involved.

Oh, let’s just bow to the inevitable. Off to DnD with ya, thread.

This is not a section Cheeba is allowed to post in so in fairness please avoid further replies to him or take it to PM.

pyxistyx wrote:

no great loss, the Escapist is currently a cesspit of gamergate types going by what I've seen in their forums every time I dare poke my head in there.

I mean, the very FIRST comment on that thread is yet more bitching about how Escapist YEARS AGO talked about the "Gamers are Dead" article... and still somehow viewing it as a personal attack on himself and gamerdom because... of course he is. *headdesk*

Seriously, the site's been pretty far into the GG side of sh*t since less than a year after GG started up in earnest, and yet there's still the dude posting about how this is vindication for ever having talked with Leah after she wrote that piece.

Then again, I still don't eat at Chick'fil'A or Papa Johns for political reasons that started years ago... soooooo, who am I to judge?

Wondered what this thread was doing here, then I saw. :/

Certis wrote:

Oh, let’s just bow to the inevitable. Off to DnD with ya, thread.

This is not a section Cheeba is allowed to post in so in fairness please avoid further replies to him or take it to PM.

Honest question, why not just ban the derailer, rather than move a perfectly innocent thread?

I assume the issue is that NeoGAF is dying, at least in part, because of sexual assault accusations. And that's considered something that gets dropped in P&C/D&D, for better or for worse.

After all these months, he still has the power. Never understood how he was allowed to continue to operate with impunity, despite the damage he has done to the community(the scars of which are still visible today).

The amount of traction that Neogaf had with podcasts I listened to and devs I followed always annoyed me. For example, Dennis Dydack posts some nonsense at Neogaf and suddenly it's worthy of discussion on every single gaming podcast. So good riddance. Hopefully something better rises up to take its place. Something that devs are not so beholden to.

I'm glad that the #MeToo movement has exposed harassers and abusers across the political and social spectrum. It would be meaningless if the only people targeted were conservative. I don't think the compulsion to be an asshole to women and those one feels power over is limited to those that lean conservative.

I appreciated that GAF had a history of trying to make that forum a safe space for woman and minorities, regardless of the crap the owner has been guilty of. And it damn well should have gone dark when Malka began using his position to shield himself in the ways he previously banned others for doing.

Jayhawker wrote:

I'm glad that the #MeToo movement has exposed harassers and abusers across the political and social spectrum. It would be meaningless if the only people targeted were conservative. I don't think the compulsion to be an asshole to women and those one feels power over is limited to those that lean conservative.

It would be nice if this became a real shift in our culture but it is so hard to bring about big change.

Jayhawker wrote:

I'm glad that the #MeToo movement has exposed harassers and abusers across the political and social spectrum. It would be meaningless if the only people targeted were conservative. I don't think the compulsion to be an asshole to women and those one feels power over is limited to those that lean conservative.

The Cracked YouTube channel talked about is a couple weeks ago. It's a good listen.

I'm constantly amazed at how intelligent and funny Cracked's news coverage is. You just wouldn't expect it from an outlet that had a rep for being a poor-man's Mad Magazine in the 70's & 80's.

They remind me a lot of the Daily Show. Prob. not as award-winning in quality. But in the same ballpark at least.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

Wondered what this thread was doing here, then I saw. :/

Certis wrote:

Oh, let’s just bow to the inevitable. Off to DnD with ya, thread.

This is not a section Cheeba is allowed to post in so in fairness please avoid further replies to him or take it to PM.

Honest question, why not just ban the derailer, rather than move a perfectly innocent thread?

Because if we banned everyone who derailed a thread there would be no one left. This is thread about sexual harassment possibly leading to the end (or major change) of a large, old web community. The more I read about the situation the less 'innocent' the thread or the subsequent discussion seems like it'll be.

Some random reactions:

The alt-right/gamergaters/neo-nazis are celebrating this as some kind of victory over liberals. I'm really not sure why, since NeoGAF never struck me as being particularly liberal. Sure, they were relatively hostile to GamerGate stuff. But banning GamerGate discussion is a really low bar, since 4chan managed to do that. GamerGaters hold grudges for a really long time though, and pass stuff around until no one remembers why they were mad in the first place. (cf. any discussion of "gamers are dead". Or the people who still get harassment from new people over lies that were told about them by GamerGate in 2014.)

For the sexual assault thing...I'm not sure why 2017 is the year when society has collectively decided to take it seriously, but at least people are.

It does point up the long-term vulnerability of a site that devolves back to one person's responsibility, but I tend to think that's a tradeoff worth making for the moderation. Even in the pre-AOL days (before my time) Usenet's decentralization had it's issues. And, well, I don't know what the setup over at NeoGAF was like, but the honorable thing for the to would be for the administrator in question to hand over the reins and step down.

(Well, the really honorable thing to do would be to not commit sexual assault in the first place. But that's apparently not an option for some people.)

Gremlin wrote:

For the sexual assault thing...I'm not sure why 2017 is the year when society has collectively decided to take it seriously, but at least people are.

Because, with Weinstein, some of the victims are famous white women.

Plus, since Weinstein has donated money to the Democrats, it's now politically advantageous for people that would otherwise ignore, minimize or pay $32 million dollars to settle sexual assault allegations to suddenly find their conscience.

Maybe, though it feels like the consequences started to be a thing before Weinstein (Ailes and O'Rilley, for example).

Certis wrote:

I get a bit nervous about the sudden influx of folks looking for a new home

Same here, but as you say, there's reason to believe we'll make it through just fine.

Gremlin wrote:

Maybe, though it feels like the consequences started to be a thing before Weinstein (Ailes and O'Rilley, for example).

Consequences weren't a thing for Trump.

And, to tie things back to the actual subject of the thread, I don't know that they'll necessarily be a thing for Malka either, but good for the moderators and community members at NeoGAF that forced the issue as far as the forum is concerned.

OzymandiasAV wrote:
Gremlin wrote:

Maybe, though it feels like the consequences started to be a thing before Weinstein (Ailes and O'Rilley, for example).

Consequences weren't a thing for Trump.

And, to tie things back to the actual subject of the thread, I don't know that they'll necessarily be a thing for Malka either, but good for the moderators and community members at NeoGAF that forced the issue as far as the forum is concerned.

They weren't for Ailes and O'Reilly until their super defense powers stopped working and leaks started coming out. Before that, much like Weinstein, they were protected by their money/power/fame and getting richer by the moment.

Jayhawker wrote:

I'm glad that the #MeToo movement has exposed harassers and abusers across the political and social spectrum. It would be meaningless if the only people targeted were conservative. I don't think the compulsion to be an asshole to women and those one feels power over is limited to those that lean conservative.

You know, I feel like I need to point this out because entirely too often I see people here and certainly elsewhere making comments about how their "side" isn't the type to do X and that's just ignorant.

Around here I've mostly seen it in re GamerGate and doxxing, harassment, etc. that went on. People on the left definitely went too far at times and did the same sh*t to pro-GG people that was done to them. I know that usually gets passed off as "they're not really one of us" or some such thing, but that's also the same crap pro-GG people would say about their bullies. *shrug*

Anyway, I truly am glad to see someone, anyone, writing what you did, Jay.

garion333 wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:

I'm glad that the #MeToo movement has exposed harassers and abusers across the political and social spectrum. It would be meaningless if the only people targeted were conservative. I don't think the compulsion to be an asshole to women and those one feels power over is limited to those that lean conservative.

You know, I feel like I need to point this out because entirely too often I see people here and certainly elsewhere making comments about how their "side" isn't the type to do X and that's just ignorant.

I can agree with this. (And with Jayhawker's sentiments above in general.)

garion333 wrote:

Around here I've mostly seen it in re GamerGate and doxxing, harassment, etc. that went on. People on the left definitely went too far at times and did the same sh*t to pro-GG people that was done to them. I know that usually gets passed off as "they're not really one of us" or some such thing, but that's also the same crap pro-GG people would say about their bullies. *shrug*

I can't come along with the ride for this, though. Not only is it a false equivalence, but it also passes over the pushback and criticism that came from a number of people on the left, in and around the industry.

Great reporting by Klepek, lots of interesting new information. I had not heard about the amirox CP stuff before, just as the whole evilore sexual harassment stuff is all new to me for the last couple of days.

I do have to admit, I kind of always disliked Amirox, I got a bad vibe from his posts ever from my start on GAF in 2013.

OzymandiasAV wrote:
garion333 wrote:

Around here I've mostly seen it in re GamerGate and doxxing, harassment, etc. that went on. People on the left definitely went too far at times and did the same sh*t to pro-GG people that was done to them. I know that usually gets passed off as "they're not really one of us" or some such thing, but that's also the same crap pro-GG people would say about their bullies. *shrug*

I can't come along with the ride for this, though. Not only is it a false equivalence, but it also passes over the pushback and criticism that came from a number of people on the left, in and around the industry.

Oh, for sure was it a false equivalency, but in some ways that is exactly what I'm talking about. Of course someone points out false equivalency, which starts us down the path of denying that a "side" doesn't have dirty laundry.

passes over the pushback and criticism that came from a number of people on the left, in and around the industry.

I'm not sure what you mean. It's not as if the entire right/pro-GG side didn't criticize doxxing, etc.

oilypenguin wrote:

Patrick Klepek on the case.

John Caboose wrote:

Great reporting by Klepek, lots of interesting new information. I had not heard about the amirox CP stuff before, just as the whole evilore sexual harassment stuff is all new to me for the last couple of days.

I do have to admit, I kind of always disliked Amirox, I got a bad vibe from his posts ever from my start on GAF in 2013.

It's one thing to dislike someone because of what someone else told you, but Malka's own words are painting a straight up asshole. I don't believe a word he's saying about her. Not one.

That said, I also didn't know a mod was convicted of child porn. I'm a member of Gaf but mostly browsed through particular game threads, mostly Japanese titles that hadn't been localized. It was a great resource for stuff like that.

But if Malka is involved moving forward I don't think I'll frequent the site even for that.

garion333 wrote:
OzymandiasAV wrote:
garion333 wrote:

Around here I've mostly seen it in re GamerGate and doxxing, harassment, etc. that went on. People on the left definitely went too far at times and did the same sh*t to pro-GG people that was done to them. I know that usually gets passed off as "they're not really one of us" or some such thing, but that's also the same crap pro-GG people would say about their bullies. *shrug*

I can't come along with the ride for this, though. Not only is it a false equivalence, but it also passes over the pushback and criticism that came from a number of people on the left, in and around the industry.

Oh, for sure was it a false equivalency, but in some ways that is exactly what I'm talking about. Of course someone points out false equivalency, which starts us down the path of denying that a "side" doesn't have dirty laundry.

It's not a denial; it doesn't have to take us down any path.

But making a "both sides" argument can take us down a path too and, if we're really going to compare scorecards about Gamergate in 2017, then I'm out.

John Caboose wrote:

Great reporting by Klepek, lots of interesting new information. I had not heard about the amirox CP stuff before, just as the whole evilore sexual harassment stuff is all new to me for the last couple of days.

Great, he is trying to frame the woman as mentally ill...
Certainly doesn't seem like he will hand over NeoGaf to others, which might have been the way to save the place.

oilypenguin wrote:

Patrick Klepek on the case.

Today's Waypoint podcast is also a great conversation about this.

OzymandiasAV wrote:
garion333 wrote:
OzymandiasAV wrote:
garion333 wrote:

Around here I've mostly seen it in re GamerGate and doxxing, harassment, etc. that went on. People on the left definitely went too far at times and did the same sh*t to pro-GG people that was done to them. I know that usually gets passed off as "they're not really one of us" or some such thing, but that's also the same crap pro-GG people would say about their bullies. *shrug*

I can't come along with the ride for this, though. Not only is it a false equivalence, but it also passes over the pushback and criticism that came from a number of people on the left, in and around the industry.

Oh, for sure was it a false equivalency, but in some ways that is exactly what I'm talking about. Of course someone points out false equivalency, which starts us down the path of denying that a "side" doesn't have dirty laundry.

It's not a denial; it doesn't have to take us down any path.

But making a "both sides" argument can take us down a path too and, if we're really going to compare scorecards about Gamergate in 2017, then I'm out.

No, no, no, my intent was never to compare scorecards. That's exactly what I wanted to avoid.

I don't want to re-litigate GG, I'm certainly not on the pro side of that, and I apologize for driving things so far from the topic of the thread and my main point of giving props to what Jay said.

GAF is back online with a statement from Malka. He starts off with a paragraph where he basically says the allegations are false.

I’ve read about the (actual, not hollywood) signs of lying and the part where he denies the allegations exhibit every single trait associated with dishonesty. It’s short, he uses distancing language (only a single ”me”) and almost no adjectives/feelings.

Needless to say my decision not to participate on GAF stands, the statement is really bad even if the denied allegation part is true.