The scope of this discussion is strictly options or suggestions on HOW to create policy and law and how to implement them in the US so as to reduce the number of guns in the hands of those who intend to use them for criminal purposes.
Whether or not those options should be explored is not under debate. The 2nd Amendment is not under debate nor under discussion. The assumption of the thread is that "gun control" law is necessary at this point and which policies and laws are good to pursue on the basis of putative results.
So when politicians go, "thoughts and prayers," they are basically ending the discussion. Yes, thoughts and prayers *are* needed, but there also needs to be a real investment, a true serving of people's needs on this issue, not just platitudes with nothing further ever done.
Thoughts and prayers are *not* needed. As you say, they're a distraction, a verbal off-ramp. By that nature, they actively do harm.
By all means, think and pray, just not at the expense of action.
bekkilyn wrote:So when politicians go, "thoughts and prayers," they are basically ending the discussion. Yes, thoughts and prayers *are* needed, but there also needs to be a real investment, a true serving of people's needs on this issue, not just platitudes with nothing further ever done.
Thoughts and prayers are *not* needed. As you say, they're a distraction, a verbal off-ramp. By that nature, they actively do harm.
By all means, think and pray, just not at the expense of action.
Depends on how you view thoughts and prayers. The biggest mistake people make is that they think their prayers are for others, when it is actually for themselves. It is a tool to affect your own change, to affect your own motivations. As bekkilyn is saying, the thoughts and prayers should be a first step towards action.
The problem is, there are too many religious people, and anti-religious people, that fail to understand this. Paul Ryan is one such person. That's why Wheaton's response was appropriate.
By all means, think and pray, just not at the expense of action.
I am in complete agreement with this statement. In fact, it is one of the teachings of scripture.
James 2:1-16
14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?
That was not the troubling part of Wil's tweet. How tone deaf does one have to be to eviscerate the beliefs of a group targeted by a mass murderer just hours after the deadly event?
Depends on how you view thoughts and prayers. The biggest mistake people make is that they think their prayers are for others, when it is actually for themselves. It is a tool to affect your own change, to affect your own motivations. As bekkilyn is saying, the thoughts and prayers should be a first step towards action.
I'm pretty sure that deciding to actually take action is the first step towards action. Praying is the first step toward convincing yourself that praying does something, and that you're now done doing something and don't have to do anything else.
Praying is an opportunity cost.
One like = 1 thought or prayer.
Yep. Useless.
That was not the troubling part of Wil's tweet. How tone deaf does one have to be to eviscerate the beliefs of a group targeted by a mass murderer just hours after the deadly event?
It was a response to Paul Ryan's tweet. Is he part of that group? Was Ryan a member of that church? Heck is he even the same denomination of Christian as that church? Because if he isn't then it is hard to see how the response to Ryan is eviscerating their beliefs.
My friend the rabbi recently explained to me that the purpose of prayer is more to clarify human behavior than it is to beg for the intercession of one's deity. And that if one does nothing constructive, one's prayer is a pretty worthless exercise.
This pretty much describes so much of what I have come to see as the "thoughts and prayers evasion". It has turned what should be a call to action into a tragic punchline for an unfunny joke.
Nomad wrote:That was not the troubling part of Wil's tweet. How tone deaf does one have to be to eviscerate the beliefs of a group targeted by a mass murderer just hours after the deadly event?
It was a response to Paul Ryan's tweet. Is he part of that group? Was Ryan a member of that church? Heck is he even the same denomination of Christian as that church? Because if he isn't then it is hard to see how the response to Ryan is eviscerating their beliefs.
Really? Wil's tweet read, "If prayers did anything, they'd still be alive..."
That seems a pretty clear reference to all prayer and not just the ones from Ryan and his "denomination". What am I missing?
Nomad wrote:That was not the troubling part of Wil's tweet. How tone deaf does one have to be to eviscerate the beliefs of a group targeted by a mass murderer just hours after the deadly event?
It was a response to Paul Ryan's tweet. Is he part of that group? Was Ryan a member of that church? Heck is he even the same denomination of Christian as that church? Because if he isn't then it is hard to see how the response to Ryan is eviscerating their beliefs.
Better yet, why are Christians crawling out of the woodwork to defend a politician who's tremendously un-Christlike? Ryan has nothing but contempt for the poor and weak and diligently worked to f*ck them over throughout his political career. His repeated efforts to decrease healthcare coverage are probably actively harming the survivors.
But, hey, let's have religious tribalism kick in along with a big side order of "Christians, especially white male Christians, are the most persecuted group in the country right now."
Really? Wil's tweet read, "If prayers did anything, they'd still be alive..."
That seems a pretty clear reference to all prayer and not just the ones from Ryan and his "denomination". What am I missing?
I think we might have to agree to disagree.
For me Ryan's tweet said "our thoughts and prayers" not the affected church or town but his own.
Really? Wil's tweet read, "If prayers did anything, they'd still be alive..."
That seems a pretty clear reference to all prayer and not just the ones from Ryan and his "denomination". What am I missing?
The part immediately afterwards where he calls Ryan a worthless sack of sh*t for doing f*ck-all to prevent this kind of thing from happening time after time after time after time.
Nomad's right. If Wil was a little more active in getting his reasonable gun safety legislation through the Congress that he controls, then maybe his insensitive tweet would be borderline acceptable. Since Wil is doing nothing to change the gun laws, we should certainly shun him, at least until he offers a very sincere apology - preferably while prostrating himself before Trump draped in an American flag, signing over all of that sweet Star Trek money to the RNC. It's the only way we know he feels bad.
That was not the troubling part of Wil's tweet. How tone deaf does one have to be to eviscerate the beliefs of a group targeted by a mass murderer just hours after the deadly event?
Note that the group he's eviscerating is politicians, not religious members.
Fox's Ainsley Earhardt: Church is the best place to get shot
*mod hat on*
Get back on scope, please.
The scope of this discussion is strictly options or suggestions on HOW to create policy and law and how to implement them in the US so as to reduce the number of guns in the hands of those who intend to use them for criminal purposes.
*mod hat off*
I'm sure the NRA is perfectly fine with whatever framing gets erected that shifts focus from the obvious harm gun laws are enabling. I hope the justified frustrations about "thoughts and prayers" being the only response from politicians leads to concrete action and votes. I'd love to see more religious leaders and organizations lead by example and show politicians that 'faith without works is dead'.
2 things I'd like to know about the Texas church massacre:
1. If DPK was legally unable to own a gun due to his violent history, how was he able to purchase one from a sporting goods store in San Antonio in April 2016?
2. If the screenshots of his FB page turn out to be authentic, will his history of hatred toward Christians and Antifa ties qualify this event as a hate crime or terrorism or both? (Anyone know why they take down FB pages so quickly after events like these? Is it a criminal investigation thing?)
I am not against more gun regulation, but it would seem that our current laws are not being followed. I hope that the store this AR was purchased from is being investigated right now as well, and that action will be taken against them should any illegal gun sale activity is found, to the fullest extent of the law.
I have to say this is becoming so commonplace that not only am I not surprised, it really isn’t even very shocking. I wonder when we’ll reach a point where mass shootings become just a media blip for a couple days.
This has been said but I think as a country, we are beginning to accept that a mass shooting every few months is just the price that we pay for the 2nd amendment. And at some level I think much of the nation is becoming Ok with that.
2 things I'd like to know about the Texas church massacre:
1. If DPK was legally unable to own a gun due to his violent history, how was he able to purchase one from a sporting goods store in San Antonio in April 2016?
2. If the screenshots of his FB page turn out to be authentic, will his history of hatred toward Christians and Antifa ties qualify this event as a hate crime or terrorism or both? (Anyone know why they take down FB pages so quickly after events like these? Is it a criminal investigation thing?)I am not against more gun regulation, but it would seem that our current laws are not being followed. I hope that the store this AR was purchased from is being investigated right now as well, and that action will be taken against them should any illegal gun sale activity is found, to the fullest extent of the law.
The Texas church gunman took advantage of a loophole in federal firearms laws to legally purchase his weapons despite serving time in military prison for domestic violence.Devin Patrick Kelley, 26, was cashiered out of the military in 2014 after serving a year in the brig at Miramar Air Force Base in California.
He was convicted in military court of beating up his wife in 2012, while assigned to Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico.
If he was given a dishonorable discharge, he would not have been able to legally purchase a weapon from a licensed dealer under federal law.
2. FOX News: No indication Texas shooter is connected to antifa
SUTHERLAND SPRINGS, Texas – There's no evidence that a man who killed 26 people in an attack on a rural Texas church Sunday was connected to an anti-fascist movement, despite claims made in a viral story from a conspiracy theorist site.The widely shared article from YourNewsWire also falsely claims shooter Devin Kelley was carrying an antifa flag and there was a second gunman.
Authorities have given no indication that the shooter was connected to antifa or that there was another gunman. Texas Department of Public Safety Regional Director Freeman Martin says the mass shooting stemmed from a domestic situation and was not racially or religiously motivated.
The antifa movement is comprised of far-left-leaning militant groups that resist neo-Nazis and white supremacists and has become a target of some right-leaning websites.
YourNewsWire is a well-known site that traffics in conspiracy theories sometimes based on false information.
2 things I'd like to know about the Texas church massacre:
1. If DPK was legally unable to own a gun due to his violent history, how was he able to purchase one from a sporting goods store in San Antonio in April 2016?
2. If the screenshots of his FB page turn out to be authentic, will his history of hatred toward Christians and Antifa ties qualify this event as a hate crime or terrorism or both? (Anyone know why they take down FB pages so quickly after events like these? Is it a criminal investigation thing?)I am not against more gun regulation, but it would seem that our current laws are not being followed. I hope that the store this AR was purchased from is being investigated right now as well, and that action will be taken against them should any illegal gun sale activity is found, to the fullest extent of the law.
There is confusion regarding whether or not he violated any laws at all.
His discharge from the military was a "bad conduct" one, but failed to meet the exacting standard of the NFA law for a "dishonorable discharge". A DD would have prohibited him from owning a firearm for life. A "less than honorable" (to include bad conduct, administrative, et al) would have prevented his obtaining a CCW in many states, but not from legally owning firearms.
His conviction for assault, also, may not have been subject to a NICS record search as it happened in the military and was adjudicated by the UCMJ and not the civilian court system. Even his time in military incarceration would not necessarily have shown up as disqualifying under domestic violence or felony conviction since military justice is, apparently, a wholly different animal.
So yeah. f*cked up for sure, but possibly entirely legal.
FOX News: No indication Texas shooter is connected to antifa
SUTHERLAND SPRINGS, Texas – There's no evidence that a man who killed 26 people in an attack on a rural Texas church Sunday was connected to an anti-fascist movement, despite claims made in a viral story from a conspiracy theorist site.The widely shared article from YourNewsWire also falsely claims shooter Devin Kelley was carrying an antifa flag and there was a second gunman.
Authorities have given no indication that the shooter was connected to antifa or that there was another gunman. Texas Department of Public Safety Regional Director Freeman Martin says the mass shooting stemmed from a domestic situation and was not racially or religiously motivated.
The antifa movement is comprised of far-left-leaning militant groups that resist neo-Nazis and white supremacists and has become a target of some right-leaning websites.
YourNewsWire is a well-known site that traffics in conspiracy theories sometimes based on false information.
And the fake news site santamonicaobserved.com was trafficking in the bullsh*t that he was a "recent convert to islam".
Ignore
2 things I'd like to know about the Texas church massacre:
1. If DPK was legally unable to own a gun due to his violent history, how was he able to purchase one from a sporting goods store in San Antonio in April 2016?
2. If the screenshots of his FB page turn out to be authentic, will his history of hatred toward Christians and Antifa ties qualify this event as a hate crime or terrorism or both? (Anyone know why they take down FB pages so quickly after events like these? Is it a criminal investigation thing?)I am not against more gun regulation, but it would seem that our current laws are not being followed. I hope that the store this AR was purchased from is being investigated right now as well, and that action will be taken against them should any illegal gun sale activity is found, to the fullest extent of the law.
I wouldn't fall for the Antifa hatred towards Christian thing at all.. that's the alt-rights wet dream and outside of their fantasies and Russian trolls its not a thing at all.
I wouldn't fall for the Antifa hatred towards Christian thing at all.. that's the alt-rights wet dream and outside of their fantasies and Russian trolls its not a thing at all.
But, if it's what you are hoping is true, it is so easy to buy in.
I have to say this is becoming so commonplace that not only am I not surprised, it really isn’t even very shocking. I wonder when we’ll reach a point where mass shootings become just a media blip for a couple days.
This has been said but I think as a country, we are beginning to accept that a mass shooting every few months is just the price that we pay for the 2nd amendment. And at some level I think much of the nation is becoming Ok with that.
We're already there. The only story left is whether the Right can successfully pollute the conversation with misinformation, dutifully spread by true believers across the web. We'll go back and forth for a few days, and then the Trumpistas will just remember that he got his gun illegally and was anti-Christian. Next month, when this happens again, we will re-litigate the misinformation being spread now.
At what point does it still even matter if the guns were obtained legally or not? The Las Vegas shooter had no flags. Isn't that enough to show that the current system is wholly inadequate?
Maybe we don't need guns.
Maybe every American just needs to wear body armor constantly. It's the price of "freedom".
I imagine the NRA would actually oppose that. The right to have a gun is untouchable but the right not to be hurt by a gun is no where in the document.
Plus minorities might wear it and then we couldn't shoot them as easily. It would make a lot more work for cops.
At this point I'm of the opinion that yes, evil people will always exist at some level and want to kill people. That doesn't mean we have to make it easy for them. You want to kill a bunch of people in a church? I want to make sure you have to walk in there with a knife to do the deed. I'm pretty sure you won't get to 20 before someone wrestles you to the ground, even if every person in the place is unarmed.
Edit, quote? What do I know?
So, after Vegas I found myself comparing my small arsenal to the killer’s. I kept coming back to “Why the f*ck *do* I have so many guns?”
And I couldn’t find an answer I was remotely comfortable with. (Aside from, “f*ck off, I like guns!”) I love shooting but I am not okay paying my range dues any more. I love shooting but I don’t want to buy ammo anymore. I tried to imagine a single scenario in which I purchased another firearm or attachment.
Couldn’t do it. So, I tried something really weird for me. I sold one of my most prized rifles in a legal transaction to a local outfitter store.
My best friend, also a therapist, jokingly suggested that every time a mass shooting occurs, I sell another.
We made it about a month. I am selling another.
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