[Discussion] How to enact Gun Safety

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The scope of this discussion is strictly options or suggestions on HOW to create policy and law and how to implement them in the US so as to reduce the number of guns in the hands of those who intend to use them for criminal purposes.

Whether or not those options should be explored is not under debate. The 2nd Amendment is not under debate nor under discussion. The assumption of the thread is that "gun control" law is necessary at this point and which policies and laws are good to pursue on the basis of putative results.

Chumpy_McChump wrote:

What about that situation makes you think you needed a gun for self protection? You weren’t injured, and you got out of the situation. What other outcome would you ever want? And if you can achieve that situation without a gun, why would you want a gun?

DSGamer wrote:

I don't think you having a gun on you in that situation would have made things better.

Just for emphasis: there’s no question here. It’s not a matter of opinion. The best possible outcome was achieved; having a gun could not have made things better. It could have had the same outcome, but there wasn’t a better outcome to be had.

Dude almost had me boxed in so I’m thinking more about what would have happened if he had succeeded. Yeah I have some issues with getting bullied/backing down but I’ve worked on that so I’m less worried about escalating things than being caught unarmed and having no way to get to safety.

At any rate, it was a scary wake up call that just like an earthquake can hit my area at any time, Americans need to be ready for gun violence at any time. I’m just trying to decide how to best prep for that.

jdzappa wrote:

So today I had a guy road rage on me and threaten to kill me. I’m 90 percent sure at one point he was going for a gun but my new sporty VW got me out of the situation thank God.

My question is how do I balance my values - aka I think there are way too many irresponsible idiots walking around with guns - with the need for self protection? And should I arm myself ASAP and ignore concealed weapons laws until I have time to undergo all the training? My conservative friends are all like “duh better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.” But I don’t want to contribute to all the current craziness, and of course don’t want to do prison time.

Honestly not trying to be an asshole here, but I'm not sure I follow the logic of "somebody threatened me today, but I safely got away without a firearm, but I think he maybe might have had a gun so I should immediately buy a gun and break the law by carrying it on the off chance that I'll have the opportunity to dangerously escalate the next road rage incident I get into (because this is a common occurrence?) by brandishing my gun (also illegal) and maybe shooting the guy or getting shot myself because, rather than fleeing in my sporty VW like before, my gun will give me false confidence that I'll be able to take out the 'bad guy' even though I didn't bother to get suitably trained--and maintain that training--on how to safely use firearms to defend myself in stressful, tactical situations."

Also, if you want a gun to protect yourself from road rage incidents you'd literally have to store it in a very easy to access place in your car which will up the chances of a negligent discharge, endanger any one who rides in your car (double points for if those passengers are kids), and gift a free gun to any criminal who might break into your car.

Trust your values--there are too many idiots out there with guns--over a BS phrase that literally gets slapped on trashy "look at me, I'm a badass" t-shirts.

Jonman wrote:

Questions:

How keen are you to kill someone? Follow-on question: how do you think you'd handle the aftermath of killing someone?

How much more likely to get shot are you if you pull a gun - bear in mind that your explicit intent here is to shoot people who brandish a gun at you, so what do you think they're going to do when you brandish a gun at them?

How confident are you that you'll never have suicidal ideation when you have easy access to a gun? Same question for your family members.

Whoops sorry I missed this - my answers below:

1. Considering the guy was screaming how much he wanted to kill a white boi British word for cigarette, I think I would sleep soundly taking out a racist homophobe if there was no other choice of course. That being said, I wouldn’t actively pull the trigger unless there were no other options.

2. See above - I’m not going to brandish a gun or give warnings. I was always taught to de escalate but if it gets to the point where I need a weapon it’s time to shoot. I appreciate the very real tactical issues some others posted. I know from paintball that my aim is still good but my quick reflexes aren’t what they were.

3. This has been the main reason I’ve avoided getting a gun in the past even when I’ve been doing a lot of prep. But this feels like a wake up call and with possible civil unrest coming in 2020 I feel very exposed.

I've struggled over the course of my life with anger problems and especially getting really frustrated with the idea that someone could threaten me and get away with it without there being "justice".

Over the years I've worked hard to cope with *my* anger issues and to try to keep in perspective that just because someone makes me feel bad or feel helpless doesn't mean hurting them is "justice" or a good outcome.

So for me, no question, I would rather get shot than have a gun and all the consequences and potentially bad outcomes that come along with that. You have to answer that same question for yourself, I guess. But I decided long ago that it wasn't worth it. I'd rather work to live in a world where most people didn't have guns and I didn't feel threatened by anything but fists.

But this feels like a wake up call and with possible civil unrest coming in 2020 I feel very exposed.

I would say this is probably an isolated incident and in the heat of the moment it really hurts. It makes you angry. It feels scary. But that's just your current state of mind. I'm as frustrated by our current politics as anyone and I don't believe we're close to any kind of mass civil unrest where me carrying my own gun would be helpful.

jdzappa wrote:

possible civil unrest coming in 2020 I feel very exposed.

Is this truly a valid concern?

jdzappa wrote:

I think I would sleep soundly taking out a racist homophobe if there was no other choice of course. That being said, I wouldn’t actively pull the trigger unless there were no other options.

And how do you make that assessment that there's "no other option"?

Particularly when you're buzzing with adrenalin? Honestly, I think you're fooling yourself enormously that you'd be capable of cooly assessing the situation.

Unless you have a Vulcan-level of calm (and likely even if you did) you've got a very good chance that you'd get that wrong, and at that point you've murdered someone for the crime of being uncivilly angry.

Consider this - if you'd have been armed today, you'd likely be talking to cops instead of us, explaining why there's a dead dude lying there.

Or you'd be the dead dude.

Jonman wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

I think I would sleep soundly taking out a racist homophobe if there was no other choice of course. That being said, I wouldn’t actively pull the trigger unless there were no other options.

And how do you make that assessment that there's "no other option"?

Particularly when you're buzzing with adrenalin? Honestly, I think you're fooling yourself enormously that you'd be capable of cooly assessing the situation.

Unless you have a Vulcan-level of calm (and likely even if you did) you've got a very good chance that you'd get that wrong, and at that point you've murdered someone for the crime of being uncivilly angry.

Consider this - if you'd have been armed today, you'd likely be talking to cops instead of us, explaining why there's a dead dude lying there.

Or you'd be the dead dude.

I think the folks on this message board know me well enough that I’m not some trigger happy, hot headed a-hole looking to blow someone away at the slightest provocation. So in this instance I don’t think the word “likely” applies. That being said, both OG and you make good points that I would and should follow the proper protocols and training if I decide to do this. Maybe worth talking to other gun owners in Everything Else about this.

jdzappa wrote:

I think the folks on this message board know me well enough that I’m not some trigger happy, hot headed a-hole looking to blow someone away at the slightest provocation. So in this instance I don’t think the word “likely” applies.

I certainly don't think you're an asshole at all.

But by your own admission, this is exactly the situation that you feel you need to be armed for. And you've been pretty clear that you're willing to use the hypothetical weapon. So how do you think today would have gone differently if you had been armed?

I think it's not a personal thing. It doesn't matter who you are or what your character is. You are human and you are subject to all the little mental and biological failings humans are subject to.

As for guns.

Guns are for killing, not for defense. Especially in the civilian setting. If you want defense, buy armor for your car. Wear armor. Armor won't kill anyone and it'll increase your chances of survival if you are fired upon.

If you must have a gun, put it in a safe in your car and have the magazine stored separately. That decreases the chance the gun will be used against you and also decreases the chance it'll be stolen or used by you in a fit of rage or fear.

Above all, you will probably be best served having regular range time and psychiatric evaluation. A not-uncommon end for fun owners is suicide by gun. You would not want that. Have a way to have someone else you trust take the gun from your possession if there is any strong stressor in your life.

Jonman wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

I think the folks on this message board know me well enough that I’m not some trigger happy, hot headed a-hole looking to blow someone away at the slightest provocation. So in this instance I don’t think the word “likely” applies.

I certainly don't think you're an asshole at all.

But by your own admission, this is exactly the situation that you feel you need to be armed for. And you've been pretty clear that you're willing to use the hypothetical weapon. So how do you think today would have gone differently if you had been armed?

As Jonman said, it’s not about you being an asshole, it’s about you having a hammer; how many things look like nails?

If I'd had a firearm in my possession at certain moments I'm quite certain I'd have drawn said weapon, and in a few instances potentially even pulled the trigger. I'm glad these outcomes were not possible.

In the heat of the moment, when being bullied, or threatened, a moral sense of justification for retaliation in self defence can for sure cloud calm and reason. Worse still is being overwhelmed, sensory overload, and reacting on instinct in correspondence to the behaviour you or a loved one were subjected to.

I had a period where anger issues boiled over and completely changed my demeanour, and my coping mechanisms. I suffered gaslighting for years and I laid down and took it so not to upset family and friends. I'm still suffering the after effects and at times when I see what I perceive as similar behaviour I want to shut those individuals down. To an unhealthy extent.

I'm not sure I could live with having killed someone. Intentionally or otherwise. Not even if they deserved it. Redemption is possible. I'd have taken that away. Sometimes, though, with racists, homophobes, misogynists, those who exert mental and emotional abuse on others, my resolve is tested.

Anyway. Just another two cents.

If I wanted to put my time into something that would help me against someone with a weapon, I'd head to a track and start running.

I guess to me, the math you have to do in your mind is whether, after doing a studied and rational assessment of your risk and the same studied and rational assessment of your training, temperament, and willingness to accept a lifestyle of constant vigilance and continuing training, you have determined that you both need to be armed and are competent with one in the context of carrying in situations in which you have very little if any control. Do you have the resources to fully compensate a victim or family of someone you did not intend to shoot? Are you competent or committed enough to the constant training necessary to be that competent to be able to only use deadly force appropriately? Is your level of threat rationally up to the level that you are willing to invest this time and money into the training you will need?

If the answer to this is yes, I can give you the names and numbers of at least a dozen training academies that can get you started. It won't be cheap and it won't be convenient, but it will get you moving in a responsible direction.

If the answer is no, please don't be part of the problem.

A guy once told me that having a gun makes you want to use it. And judging by your reason for wanting to get one you don't need one. My recommendation is to go take all the training classes at your local gun range and if you feel like you need one after that then go ahead. If you get one keep it for home defense don't keep it in your car. Also I'm confused on why you were out of your car during this incident.

So what happens if road rage dude starts shooting and you pull your gun and return fire? Eventually one of you will hit the other, but likely a significant number of shots are going to miss. Since you're on a public road, chances are pretty good that other cars with innocent bystanders are around.

Are you capable of judging each shot you take and determining whether the line of fire is clear of innocents? That's not something even highly trained professionals are great at so it's probably safe to say no, if that's even something you think about at all in the heat of the moment. So sure, you can live with the hypothetical killing of the bigot who started the incident, but can you live with the hypothetical murder of the child in the car driving by that just got in the way?

Let me take a step back and say that the feeling of helplessness you experienced when being assaulted by a rando is entirely understandable and natural. And the desire to take steps to prevent that feeling again is entirely rational. It is important to acknowledge that feeling and understand the power it has over you and how it can change the context of your decision making. People make precisely that decision to get and carry a gun all the time after some kind of trauma and it at least in this country, it is purely their decision to make.

My position on it, however, is that there are tremendous costs to the actions we take. And if carrying a gun is a pacifier or a substitution for self reflection and/or therapy, it is a pretty piss poor one as many of the statistics will tease out. The purchasing of hardware as a substitute for attaining capability is and has always been a recipe for tragedy.

If your specific fear is another road rage incident, building the skills for defensive and conflict driving is a FAR more direct way of addressing it. The BSR training at Summit Point, for instance, is probably the best you will find locally to me. I am sure that you will be able to find an equally credentialed school where you reside. Given the choice between carrying a pistol and skillfully operating a two ton, 280HP SUV, pick the SUV and the skill.

Paleocon wrote:

Let me take a step back and say that the feeling of helplessness you experienced when being assaulted by a rando is entirely understandable and natural. And the desire to take steps to prevent that feeling again is entirely rational. It is important to acknowledge that feeling and understand the power it has over you and how it can change the context of your decision making. People make precisely that decision to get and carry a gun all the time after some kind of trauma and it at least in this country, it is purely their decision to make.

My position on it, however, is that there are tremendous costs to the actions we take. And if carrying a gun is a pacifier or a substitution for self reflection and/or therapy, it is a pretty piss poor one as many of the statistics will tease out. The purchasing of hardware as a substitute for attaining capability is and has always been a recipe for tragedy.

If your specific fear is another road rage incident, building the skills for defensive and conflict driving is a FAR more direct way of addressing it. The BSR training at Summit Point, for instance, is probably the best you will find locally to me. I am sure that you will be able to find an equally credentialed school where you reside. Given the choice between carrying a pistol and skillfully operating a two ton, 280HP SUV, pick the SUV and the skill.

Thanks Paleo. I realize I may have come across as a bit too angry. While I would have gladly gone 3 MMA rounds with the guy I wouldn’t try to kill him unless he had opened fire on me, had broken into my house and kept advancing, etc. It also felt like a thread pile-on but I also recognize that might have been my perception.

I also recognize that while I have decent military training I’m also rusty and some of the rules of engagement I was taught as a peacekeeper on the Korean DMZ and Bosnia don’t work in a civilian setting. Namely, I don’t have a squad backing me up so that I could wait until I had identified a lethal threat and pick my shots to avoid hitting passer-bys.

On a related note, I spoke with some of my LE buddies who told me concealed carry is a major PITA especially in an progressive urban area like Seattle. There are lots of places you just can’t go which means possibly leaving a gun in a car. You also become an even bigger target and the hand to hand techniques I’m practicing become that much harder since a gun is in the mix. So while I will probably by a weapon for home defense, I’m seriously rethinking going the concealed permit route.

That being said, I’m now traveling through a bad part of town (like so bad it’s regularly featured on cop shows) for work so I may take you up on those resources. I’m just not sure how much this was an isolated incident versus potential recurring threat.

jdzappa wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

Let me take a step back and say that the feeling of helplessness you experienced when being assaulted by a rando is entirely understandable and natural. And the desire to take steps to prevent that feeling again is entirely rational. It is important to acknowledge that feeling and understand the power it has over you and how it can change the context of your decision making. People make precisely that decision to get and carry a gun all the time after some kind of trauma and it at least in this country, it is purely their decision to make.

My position on it, however, is that there are tremendous costs to the actions we take. And if carrying a gun is a pacifier or a substitution for self reflection and/or therapy, it is a pretty piss poor one as many of the statistics will tease out. The purchasing of hardware as a substitute for attaining capability is and has always been a recipe for tragedy.

If your specific fear is another road rage incident, building the skills for defensive and conflict driving is a FAR more direct way of addressing it. The BSR training at Summit Point, for instance, is probably the best you will find locally to me. I am sure that you will be able to find an equally credentialed school where you reside. Given the choice between carrying a pistol and skillfully operating a two ton, 280HP SUV, pick the SUV and the skill.

Thanks Paleo. I realize I may have come across as a bit too angry. While I would have gladly gone 3 MMA rounds with the guy I wouldn’t try to kill him unless he had opened fire on me, had broken into my house and kept advancing, etc. It also felt like a thread pile-on but I also recognize that might have been my perception.

I also recognize that while I have decent military training I’m also rusty and some of the rules of engagement I was taught as a peacekeeper on the Korean DMZ and Bosnia don’t work in a civilian setting. Namely, I don’t have a squad backing me up so that I could wait until I had identified a lethal threat and pick my shots to avoid hitting passer-bys.

On a related note, I spoke with some of my LE buddies who told me concealed carry is a major PITA especially in an progressive urban area like Seattle. There are lots of places you just can’t go which means possibly leaving a gun in a car. You also become an even bigger target and the hand to hand techniques I’m practicing become that much harder since a gun is in the mix. So while I will probably by a weapon for home defense, I’m seriously rethinking going the concealed permit route.

That being said, I’m now traveling through a bad part of town (like so bad it’s regularly featured on cop shows) for work so I may take you up on those resources. I’m just not sure how much this was an isolated incident versus potential recurring threat.

I get ya. I was debating whether or not to respond to your post because of how many folks already had, but figured that it was worth giving you a more nuanced opinion than some of the ones already expressed.

I debated going with a CCW when I was still managing the gas station (birthplace of the shivgee and boobwich), but decided against it because of the reasons I already articulated. Even then, the circumstances in which I would have carried would have been a great deal narrower than the blanket "shall issue" licenses available in places like Virginia and North Carolina where I, at one point or another, resided. I would mostly just be armed when transporting cash to the bank. And I would do so with my brother in law who would be driving the vehicle.

I have had roughly 500 hours of situational firearms training (to which I do not include the hours shooting at indoor ranges at targets). I am sure Edwin probably has more and would be a decent and even local resource for that. And my own opinion is that at the height of my training and training currency, I was barely comfortable with my own ability to carry responsibly "at large" the way most CCW holders do casually. Now, with it being over a decade in the past, I would never dream of carrying a firearm unless I was able to identify a clear, individual threat to my life (e.g.: violent stalker) and even then, I would be concerned about my competence.

Your opinion and judgement, of course, may vary, but I have found that where I put the line works pretty well for me. And it helps me focus on the skills rather than the hardware. In the end it is the former that will save your life.

jdzappa wrote:

So today I had a guy road rage on me and threaten to kill me. I’m 90 percent sure at one point he was going for a gun but my new sporty VW got me out of the situation thank God.

Road rage incidents are almost always ego driven, and as such defensive gun use is almost never required. Even if you were carrying, escaping and de-escalating was the right choice.

My question is how do I balance my values - aka I think there are way too many irresponsible idiots walking around with guns - with the need for self protection? And should I arm myself ASAP and ignore concealed weapons laws until I have time to undergo all the training?

No to put too fine a point on it, but carrying without training makes you one of the irresponsible idiots. Get the training first.

But I don’t want to contribute to all the current craziness, and of course don’t want to do prison time.

The training should cover the use of force continuum, but at the core it's pretty simple - you should only use lethal force if there is an immediate and imminent threat to your life. Your road rage situation doesn't apply, because there were only verbal threats - you didn't see a gun. If you follow those rules, you won't contribute to any craziness and have a remote chance to stop some craziness.

Get used to the idea that you might do prison time if you carry. If you are unlucky enough to find yourself in a lethal force situation, you're going to have to make split-second decisions, and there is a chance you will make a mistake. Get carry insurance.

bekkilyn wrote:

Even so, getting out of the situation with the result of no one injured or dead is still the best outcome.

This. No one getting hurt is always the best outcome. Carrying a gun is for the times when someone is going to get hurt, and you'd rather it be the attacker than you.

OG_slinger wrote:

Also, if you want a gun to protect yourself from road rage incidents you'd literally have to store it in a very easy to access place in your car which will up the chances of a negligent discharge, endanger any one who rides in your car (double points for if those passengers are kids), and gift a free gun to any criminal who might break into your car.

While it's pretty trivial to store a gun safely in a car, it isn't ideal - if you are planning to defend yourself, you should have your gun on your person whenever possible. The reason for this should also be covered in your training - defensive lethal force encounters tend to happen very fast, and if you don't have your tools right at hand they will not do you any good. Also as a side note, carrying will quickly become a tedious and uncomfortable hassle, and it requires discipline to keep up.

jdzappa wrote:

That being said, both OG and you make good points that I would and should follow the proper protocols and training if I decide to do this. Maybe worth talking to other gun owners in Everything Else about this.

Unfortunately the shooter's thread was locked, and I don't think you'll have much luck with this. If you do want to talk to someone who actually carries on a daily basis, and has done so for a very long time, feel free to PM me.

Mark your calendars, I agree with Aetius.

Meanwhile, in Virginia....

Thousands of Virginia residents have shown up at meetings across the state to try to block Democrats from enacting new gun laws, with some gun rights supporters openly discussing violent resistance and civil war.

The backlash to gun control in Virginia is being fueled by conspiracy theories and misinformation, and some observers worry that the escalating rhetoric may spark violence.

When Democrats won control of Virginia’s state government for the first time in 26 years in November 2019, they pledged to pass a series of standard gun control laws, including universal background checks and bans on military-style “assault weapons” and high-capacity ammunition magazines. The agenda was no surprise: state Democrats had run for office on a platform of gun violence prevention, backed by funding from national gun control groups.

But the pledge sparked a grassroots pro-gun movement whose size and intensity has surprised even longtime activists. In dozens of towns and counties, pro-gun Virginians have flooded local government meetings to oppose the new bills and to demand that their lawmakers pass “second amendment sanctuary” resolutions, which promise that local governments will not enforce state gun laws they see as unconstitutional.

Some of these activists have warned of violence if Democrats push forward with gun control. Multiple Democratic lawmakers have reportedly received threats, including death threats. At heated public meetings across the state and in long social media comment threads, some gun rights supporters are openly discussing the possibility of civil war. Many have warned of the need to fight back against “tyranny” or have compared Democratic lawmakers to the British forces during the revolutionary war. “I really do think we may be on the brink of another war,” one speaker told a crowd of at least 800 people in Pulaski county, the Roanoke Times reported.

The swift expansion of local pro-gun organizing in Virginia has also attracted the attention of national anti-government militias and white supremacist groups, who have “glommed on to” the grassroots movement, hoping to use it as a potential flashpoint that could lead to civil war and social breakdown, according to an analyst at the Anti-Defamation League, which monitors extremist groups.

Some observers worry these tensions may come to a head on 20 January, when a lobby day against gun control at Virginia’s state capitol is expected to attract thousands of people, including members of anti-government groups from other states. Local residents are concerned the day could turn violent, like the 2017 Unite the Right rally in nearby Charlottesville, Virginia.

So far, Ralph Northam, the state’s Democratic governor, has said that plans to pass new gun violence prevention laws will move forward despite the public backlash.

“Everyone needs to work to turn the rhetoric down – at the end of the day, this is about keeping people safe,” Alena Yarmosky, a spokeswoman for the governor, said.

It's pretty clear that if you're not vocally in favor of things like background checks, and vocally opposing violent rhetoric from very obvious terrorists, you're not a Responsible Gun Owner. Your f*cking locked cabinet is chickensh*t.

So of the three arrested, two were from my home state of Maryland. One of them less than 40 minutes from my house.

The name of their neo nazi group? The Base. I wonder if it was translated directly from the Arabic.

Paleocon wrote:

The name of their neo nazi group? The Base. I wonder if it was translated directly from the Arabic.

Why this wasn't screamed to the rafters yesterday is beyond me.

Rat Boy wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

The name of their neo nazi group? The Base. I wonder if it was translated directly from the Arabic.

Why this wasn't screamed to the rafters yesterday is beyond me.

I mean, I've said this before, but the two bear a surprising amount of similarities.

Virginia's highest court upholds weapons ban at gun rally

RICHMOND, Va. (AP) — Virginia’s highest court on Friday upheld a ban on firearms at an upcoming pro-gun rally in the state’s capital, an event that authorities feared could erupt in violence at the hands of armed extremists.

The Virginia Supreme Court’s decision came a day after gun-rights groups sued to overturn the ban that Gov. Ralph Northam issued earlier this week, citing credible threats of “armed militia groups storming our Capitol.”

The lawsuit and court rulings came as the FBI arrested six men who authorities linked to a white supremacist group known as The Base. At least three of them were planning to attend the pro-gun rally on Monday on the grounds of the state Capitol in Richmond, according to an official who spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity to discuss an active investigation.

Virginia has become Ground Zero in the nation’s raging debate over gun control, as a new Democratic majority in the state legislature has promised to pass an array of restrictions, including universal background checks and a red-flag law.

Gun-rights groups argued the ban would violate their Second Amendment right to bear arms and their First Amendment freedom of speech. But a Richmond judge upheld the ban on Thursday, citing rulings from the U.S. Supreme Court and other courts that the Second Amendment right to bear arms is not unlimited.

Philip Van Cleave, president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League — the group sponsoring the rally — called that ruling “mind-boggling.” The group did not respond immediately to the Supreme Court ruling.

Pro-gun activists threaten to kill state lawmaker over bill they misunderstood

Virginia’s only socialist state legislator said he has been the target of multiple death threats over a bill that pro-gun activists misinterpreted as a potential threat to their rights.

The legislation introduced by Lee Carter, a 32-year-old Bernie Sanders-endorsed socialist, would allow public school teachers to strike without being fired, and has in fact nothing to do with guns. But some gun rights activists wrongly interpreted it as an attempt to fire law enforcement officials who might refuse to comply with gun control laws introduced by Virginia’s new Democratic legislative majority.

The result, Carter said, has been a torrent of threats and abuse on social media, from promises to vote him out of office, to claims that “this is tyranny and you know what we do to tyrants,” to explicit threats of murder, like, “I’m going to make sure you don’t live through this legislative session” or “I’m going to kill this guy, y’all make sure you don’t forget my name.”

Carter, says he has been so concerned about the death threats that he has started openly carrying a handgun to protect himself.

On Monday, when tens of thousands of gun rights activists will converge on the state capitol in Richmond for what is expected to be a volatile demonstration against the new gun control bills introduced by Virginia Democrats, Carter said that he plans to be in hiding, at an undisclosed location, concerned that he might be a target of violence even in his own home.

Among the threats against him, Carter said, there had been frequent mentions of Monday’s pro-gun protest, “and a lot of people saying, ‘We’re going to kick off the second American civil war. This guy is going to be the first one to die. Make sure you show up armed.”

I think I've mentioned this here before but American gun rights advocates have convinced me of the necessity of gun ownership. Just... not for the reasons I imagine they think they might've.

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