Nintendo Switch Catch-All 2.0

I think well implemented achievements can make a game better. More or less gently guiding me toward parts of a game I might otherwise miss.
Doesn't make a difference if they are account-wide, but when you are at it, why not. It's nice to have one place where you can see if you have a game you could dive back into for some stuff to do.

It would be reasonable if games could opt out of having achievements though.

Rave wrote:

Also kind of curious why people would be against it if its well done and not lazy.

That's a hella big "if". Even if some games do it well, you're going to see a lot of lazy implementations of it. A lot. Every single achievement system thus far has ended up this way.

Some games are multiplayer and encourage people to play toward achievements instead of the actual goal of a game.

Nintendo could use the resources for other things.

Those are two reasons I'd rather they not so achievements.

ClockworkHouse wrote:
jrralls wrote:

I've never experienced a system wide achievement system. What's bad about it?

Not that I doubt you, but how have you managed this? Steam, the Xbox, and the Playstation ecosystem have all had achievement systems for a decade. Both major mobile platforms have them, too.

Is the steam achievement system wide? I know I've played games on steam without them.

Yeah, achievements in multiplayer are terrible by default. Good enforcement of a system-wide achievement system would be to simply disallow multiplayer achievements.
Or at least co-op multiplayer. If its 1vs1 multiplayer, you cant hurt the experience of your team, so I guess those can be fine.

Steams achievement policy seems fairly free. Like The Witness has 2 achievements, one hidden (I dont know what it is), and one for completing the game. The end. Subnautica seems to have zero achievements (it's early access though, so it might change).

I have no problem with games having individual, well-designed achievements when it's appropriate for that game. Kid Icarus: Uprising has the best achievement system I've ever seen, and I'm really glad it was there!

But it was also part of the game's design from the beginning and meaningfully integrates into the game's goals and mechanics. Even with the games with the best achievement designs on the Xbox, I've never seen a system that woven into the experience.

The overwhelming majority of achievements are rote and don't guide the player toward much of anything. At best, they're reward flags for systems that have never needed players guided toward them before. At worst, they distort the games themselves and any community around them.

Yeah I guess since I rarely ever play multiplayer games I never think of how achievements effect the way people play them.

I just think of how much fun the feats have been in Shovel Knight and wish there was a way to surface that stuff and compare to other players. Breath of the Wild just seems ripe for some really creative achievements. Though I know that probably wouldn't be what it gets I suppose.

I'd rather see a system with less trophies, no over all gamer score, but some real time put into thinking how they can change the way people play the game. Maybe no multiplayer trophies at all. If the VC console ever does arrive I just think it would be so cool if they added achievements for doing some really off the wall stuff that people have learned to do in speed runs and stuff over the year.

Probably just wishful thinking on my part, you're all probably all right that it would be no different then other platforms. If there was a company that could innovate on it though I'd say it would be Nintendo, and their games are far and away the ones I'd most want to see this system for.

I'm sort of neutral on achievements. I don't really care for them, but for a game I adore, getting that platinum is sort of a way for me to 'honour' it. In those occasions, I've definitely seen parts of the game, or tried things I'd never have experienced in a normal playthrough.

I'm not sure how I feel about Nintendo utilizing them, but if they did, I'd prefer an out-of-game total, not in-game feats. I like browsing what I've earned vs what my friends have earned. A bonus would be if certain achievements unlocked accessories for your amiibo! I'd love to have some actual reward for doing something in a game.

And that virtual console idea is fantastic! I'd LOVE to see little challenges added to classic games. Having nods to speedruns and other tricks that's developed over 10-20 years would be so much fun.

The closest thing to an achievement system they had that was like that was Miiverse, which wasn't an achievement system at all. But it gave you a way to share your accomplishments with friends and strangers, as well as the weirder things you did or discovered. (For awhile, it was also a genuinely helpful place to ask questions and get advice.)

But like a little mirror of the Wii U itself, Miiverse was slow and clunky, Nintendo never really figured out how to market it, and developers rarely figured out how to use it in a way that was fun without being annoying. When the parts and pieces all aligned just right, it was really special. When they didn't, it was more frustrating than it was worth.

I have mixed feelings about achievements. Originally I was a sucker for getting gamerscore on the Xbox 360, and it certainly did encourage me to try replaying games on harder difficulties and such. But it's also one of the reasons I'm a bit more obsessive about item collection than I ever was before. You'd think after games like Zelda, Super Mario World, Donkey Kong Country, and Metroid (and so many other designs) I'd already be a sucker for collectibles, but it wasn't until I could nab 30 Gamerscore for collecting all of them that I went and began doing it constantly.

Achievements are basically just a psychological bullsh*t bell ringing to say "congratulations for playing a game!" It chimes just because you completed a chapter in the game, which is what you're supposed to do. It chimes when you get x number of kills in multiplayer. It chimes when you waste a Saturday afternoon in Dead Rising getting in a car and just driving through the most populated area of zombies (I think you could take a vehicle into the basement/parking garage/whatever?) just to kill 50,000+ zombies and see an achievement ding.

It's essentially a sort of meta game. I know SallyNasty will always defend it because it has encouraged him to get more mileage out of his games, but that's the thing. It's a meta-game which means it doesn't actually improve the game itself.

I think a lot of the problem is that most games try to max out how many achievements their game has, which results in a lot of lazy ones. I was surprised that Destiny 2 doesn't have 50 actual achievements/trophies in the base title. It's a surprisingly short list, but it's most certainly not an easy one to max out. I'd rather more companies only have maybe 10 achievements rather than fifty inane ones. I wouldn't mind achievements that encouraging playing on higher difficulties or something, but even so there then becomes a discussion of "fairness" regarding the meta-game. Is it fair if you suck at, say, sorcerer characters and the game requires you to beat it as the five major character classes to unlock an achievement?

As a result, it's something I check once in a while on PS4 because they've attached a sort of "level" system, but I don't really strive to unlock achievements anymore. I think it'd be neat to see how Nintendo would implement it since Miiverse was different than I imagined anyone would implement a social network in a game system, but I could also live without it.

ahrezmendi wrote:
ccesarano wrote:

On the other hand, an achievement system would give me an excuse to play through Breath of the Wild again.

I can give you that excuse - Master Mode.

Gonna be honest, I'd probably be a tourist in that mode and then decide it's too damn hard.

For a game I'm still enjoying the mechanics, I find it a bit of extra sweetener once I've completed the usual end game stuff. For story achievements, I've often found them a quick way to compare my progress with others on my friends list. Otherwise I ignore them.

Like others, I just hope you can disable them and not make them mandatory for developers.

Achievements would have really hurt the experience in Breath of the Wild.

Instead of just playing for the joy of playing, discovery and messing with the systems, it would have distilled the actions into another checklist. The industry already has an endless supply of checklist games that have you filling bars for a virtual pat on the back. Just imagining achievements like:

"Fidget Spinner: Flip the puzzle over to solve it! lol"

"Stranger Things: Use the magnet to catapult yourself"

"Marry Poppins Ya'll: Use Octo Balloons to make a floating raft"

gives me a headache. That immense feeling of player agency and creativity would have been completely wiped out for the sake of a virtual sticker.

BNice wrote:

Just imagining achievements like:

"Fidget Spinner: Flip the puzzle over to solve it! lol"

"Stranger Things: Use the magnet to catapult yourself"

"Marry Poppins Ya'll: Use Octo Balloons to make a floating raft"

gives me a headache. That immense feeling of player agency and creativity would have been completely wiped out for the sake of a virtual sticker.

Sure, but even if they wanted to make achievements like that, it could be more open ended like
Make yourself fly through the air for X seconds/yards, without gliding.
Often such achievements are also hidden, so you wont get spoiled unless you want to (and those who want to get spoiled, can do that without achievements anyway).
Besides, using Octo Ballons to make something float pretty much is an in-game achievement (quest) already, it is not like Nintendo tried to keep it as some secret game mechanism.

In BotWs case I could see some achievements related to end-game crafting, beating some of the more optional enemies etc. as encouragement for playing after you 'finish' the game, considering it is a game you can finish very early if you want to.
Or the exact opposite; an achievement for finishing the game without doing any of the intermediate content.

I always dug games that compared you to your friends with data and not analog (yes / no) achievements. Burnout and Need for Speed Most Wanted jump to mind as a great examples.

Just Cause 3 had some of these as well. "Most time gliding", etc. I enjoyed competing with my brother asynchronously in those.

What ties those together, though, is that they're game based and not implemented on a platform level.

There is a record aspect to achievements that I like. Since on PSN they are all timestamped and public, I can go to psnprofiles and look at my achievements for the year when figuring out my top 10. It also generally lets me know how long I played a game. When my son has played some games on my account, and he starts getting achievements he knows he's gotten farther than me.

Shadout wrote:

In BotWs case I could see some achievements related to end-game crafting, beating some of the more optional enemies etc. as encouragement for playing after you 'finish' the game, considering it is a game you can finish very early if you want to.
Or the exact opposite; an achievement for finishing the game without doing any of the intermediate content.

Aristophan wrote:

There is a record aspect to achievements that I like. Since on PSN they are all timestamped and public, I can go to psnprofiles and look at my achievements for the year when figuring out my top 10. It also generally lets me know how long I played a game. When my son has played some games on my account, and he starts getting achievements he knows he's gotten farther than me.

Good points, I came in so negative and didn't think about the other applications.

jrralls wrote:

Is the steam achievement system wide? I know I've played games on steam without them.

By "system-wide" I mean more "platform holder provides an API to handle logging the achievement, generating the notification in a uniform manner, recording the achievement to the cloud, etc." rather than "every game on the platform has achievements". If you've spent time with Nintendo systems over the last generation or two you'll notice that very few games have achievements and those that do typically represent them in a way unique to that game. As opposed to PS/XBox/Steam systems where everything is handled through an API call that's provided by the platform holder which ensures a consistent experience across titles.

A_Unicycle wrote:

And that virtual console idea is fantastic! I'd LOVE to see little challenges added to classic games. Having nods to speedruns and other tricks that's developed over 10-20 years would be so much fun.

IMAGE(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/36/NESRemixLogoIntro2.jpg)

BNice wrote:

Achievements would have really hurt the experience in Breath of the Wild.

I think BotW is when I realized it's pretty nice just sinking into a game for 50+ hours and never getting any sort of notification popup.

Shadout wrote:

In BotWs case I could see some achievements related to end-game crafting, beating some of the more optional enemies etc. as encouragement for playing after you 'finish' the game, considering it is a game you can finish very early if you want to.
Or the exact opposite; an achievement for finishing the game without doing any of the intermediate content.

Why make it an achievement? Why not just give the player a really nice in-game reward as a... reward?

I'm deeply skeptical that achievements motivate play for anyone other than achievement chasers. I doubt there are many people who get through a game, really want to play more, but can't figure out where to look without an achievement to prompt them.

Meanwhile, achievement chasers aren't being incentivized to explore the game more deeply and really engage with it, they're being incentivized to exploit the game in the most efficient way possible so they can check that box and move on to the next game.

For instance, achievements for getting all the endings in a game would theoretically motivate people to play the game through multiple times. Instead, it motivates them to shuffle around save file backups and exploit the system menu to get the achievement without restarting.

shoptroll wrote:
Shadout wrote:

In BotWs case I could see some achievements related to end-game crafting, beating some of the more optional enemies etc. as encouragement for playing after you 'finish' the game, considering it is a game you can finish very early if you want to.
Or the exact opposite; an achievement for finishing the game without doing any of the intermediate content.

Why make it an achievement? Why not just give the player a really nice in-game reward as a... reward?

You can do that, and in some games that can work great. But by rewarding the 'achievements' you also make them less optional.

I think the only people who are really trying to hack or cheat games for achievements are those who are concerned about their overall score/level. It's something that was pretty common in the early 360 days (certain games were notorious for being pursued for their easy achievements) but I rarely hear about it these days.

Shadout wrote:

You can do that, and in some games that can work great. But by rewarding the 'achievements' you also make them less optional.

I know I'm not replaying all of Splatoon 2's campaign with every weapon just to unlock the "Hero" version of the weapons for use in multiplayer, but I might do it for some of the weapons I really like to use. If those were achievements instead I probably wouldn't even bother. And I'm sure there are some people who aren't going to bother regardless of what the reward is.

WTF is up with this thread and drama? It's like a magnet.

garion333 wrote:

WTF is up with this thread and drama? It's like a magnet. ;)

Maybe Nintendo could add achievements to their expensive hardware and cartridges!

Pro controller - Mortgage achieved

garion333 wrote:

WTF is up with this thread and drama? It's like a magnet. ;)

Is this drama?

Shadout wrote:
garion333 wrote:

WTF is up with this thread and drama? It's like a magnet. ;)

Maybe Nintendo could add achievements to their expensive hardware and cartridges!

Pro controller - Mortgage achieved

There's an artificial scarcity of achievements on the Switch.

Wow, that's truly surprising.

ClockworkHouse wrote:
garion333 wrote:

WTF is up with this thread and drama? It's like a magnet. ;)

Is this drama?

Drama the drama drama?

Probably.

Doesn't seem too surprising to me, it's a game that operates largely on nostalgia, Id imagine most fans of the series are also Nintendo fans for the same reason. Also helped that it launched at the same time for all platforms with little to no difference across versions. I know I'll be picking up most indie games on this thing just for the ease of use if I have no wait between the games launch.

I imagine we will likely see similar sales numbers for Sonic Mania. Switch is in a pretty interesting position. It might not get the 3rd party support but between 1st party and indies it's already got a great library of games, and this seems like it can easily be pretty sustainable. Also with the cost of AAA games now days this seems like it could be cheaper to develop resources for if it becomes more popular it may end up getting a great library like the 3ds.

Rave wrote:

Doesn't seem too surprising to me, it's a game that operates largely on nostalgia, Id imagine most fans of the series are also Nintendo fans for the same reason. Also helped that it launched at the same time for all platforms with little to no difference across versions. I know I'll be picking up most indie games on this thing just for the ease of use if I have no wait between the games launch.
.

I suspect the fact that it launched on Switch at a point when the console was sold-out, but the software catalogue barely required the fingers on both hands to be counted.

That's why I bought it - because I had precious little else to play on the Switch at the time, and there was literally nothing else available that I had any desire to play and hadn't already bought.

Whereas the Steam version just got lost in the weekly onslaught, not to mention it was just another drop in a bucket full of nostalgia-driven retro titles.

Yeah launching with a weak library probably had a huge part in that games over all success. I still think it skews more to a Nintendo audience.

I'd be curious to see how Shovel Knight sold, if I remember right it launched with specter of torment but had been out on the other systems for ages. Same with Binding of Isaac.