[Discussion] On the right wing, free speech, and free opinion

Since my very slightly conservative opinions aren't apparently welcome in other threads, I thought I'd put them here.

Malor wrote:

The entire country of India would disagree with you utterly, RoughneckGeek. cf: Mahatma Gandhi.

If we all stand quietly and orderly in front of the right-wing machine guns, magic will happen and everything will be fine.

PS Get f*cked.

Freyja wrote:

Weird how queer people were roundly persecuted and killed for decades but it's *us* forcing the conservatives.

It's this disgusting notion that freedom in America means pretending we don't have societal obligations. Like it's a f*cking principle to be proud of, the freedom to let minorities suffer.

Malor is just doubling down. It's not enough to protect the right to be a sh*thead, he has to attack the freedom of others to call them out as sh*theads.

The irony of all this is that we can only have this conversation because of how strictly GWJ polices hate speech and bigotry, both top-down and internally. If this were anywhere else on the internet the thread would just be 400 pages of threats and slurs, almost as though unrestricted speech normalizes the worst behavior. I'm sure there's a lesson in there, somewhere.

Malor wrote:

But, at least recently, things like gay marriage and trans rights are being rammed through the courts and Obama's Executive Branch. Few people on the other side are being convinced that these things are right or noble or correct, they're just being told to shut up and f*cking do it. We're not winning, not really. We're temporarily getting our way, but every time we do this, the pressure against these changes builds up.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.*

*Except for gay, black, indigenous, disabled, Muslim, Jewish, immigrant, undocumented, and trans people. These populations must wait for a gerrymandered, overtly hostile legislative body to deign to recognize them as not actually subhuman.

tl;dr: Bite me. I'm not going to martyr myself so bigots can feel good.

I love how when Nazis say that Jews, Blacks, Muslins, etc... have no place in society and should be expelled from the country (at best) or killed (at worst), they are just expressing their free speech. But with others say that Nazis have no place in our American society, we are infringing on their free speech.

Weird how queer people were roundly persecuted and killed for decades but it's *us* forcing the conservatives.

You didn't really convince them. You've convinced five people in robes, and are forcing everyone else to go along. It's not a fight that you've really won.

Which I think sucks, mind. But.... you didn't really convince them. The general public is swinging your way now, and you could probably get gay marriage through the next liberal-ish Congress, but I'm not sure that will ever happen, now, because you shortcut the process.

So, what I'm really getting here from all this opposition is simply this: this board thinks this is okay. And, further, that it is okay to silence and disrupt the opposition, that people you don't agree with don't have the same rights to free opinion and expression that you do. Being right trumps everything else.

Do you know what being wrong feels like? It feels exactly the same as being right. Some of the ideas you will enthusiastically suppress will be correct. Even if you find them vile, some of those ideas will be right, and you will have enshrined that it's okay to shut people up simply if you don't agree with them.

I'm not conservative, but if I were, I would look at this thread as a declaration of war by the Left. When they talk about liberals being intolerant, they are right. Many of you are demonstrating it. Almost everything here has been rationalizations for why suppressing dissent is okay. Left-wing authoritarianism is almost as scary as the right-wing flavor, and is absolutely alien to the idealized country I was taught about as a child.

When I see conservatives doing the horrible things they're doing, well, they've got this behavior to point at. It's the usual thing of "Democrats stick a toe in the water, and the Republicans use it as an excuse for a full-body cannonball", but .... honestly, I don't think this stuff you guys are championing is just a toe in the water, anymore. Silencing dissent is dangerous.

And not just to conservatives, but to liberalism itself. It is arrogant to think that you can infallibly determine what is correct, and that it's okay to silence those with whom you disagree. Dissent is central to all social change, and a lot of that dissent will be things you violently disagree with.

Instead of trying to destroy conservatives, you should, IMO, be trying to limit the damage they do. Let them have their opinions and express them freely. They're part of the social fabric, too. They have just as much right to be here as you do. And, damn them, sometimes they're right.

[Discussion] Gavin Grimm: Harbinger of the death of the Republic?

[Debate] "I only beat you because you covered your head with your hands" as a politic.

Some new thread name ideas for ya there champ

Mod:

Malor: Given the Nazi marches in Charlottesville over the last two days, today is not the day for this conversation. We've been over this ground again and again, but not right now. Take a break.

Freyja: "Get ____ed" is not how we talk to each other here, no matter how justified you may feel in saying that. Cool your jets.

Malor, I can't tell if you're sh*tposting or actually believe what you're writing.

Call it whatever you want, but if "forcing" assholes not to trample on the rights of good people is somehow wrong in your view, then I feel like you have to drop the (imo) unrealistic view you have of society.

People. GOOD people are being harassed, torture and killed by these white supremacists and it's no surprise that we're acting emotionally. People are fed the f*ck up. Sadly, that is often how change happens in this world.

Other than being just a long form "but what is right and wrong, really" wank, I do want to address this -

Instead of trying to destroy conservatives, you should, IMO, be trying to limit the damage they do.

Yeah but who's actually doing that? The wording is especially (morbidly) funny in its irony because not allowing people to be openly racist is "destroying conservatives" but people literally killing their fellow Americans due to their religion, skin color, sexuality, and so on... well, that's a consequence of not winning hearts and minds.

The only reason this is a "conservative" problem is because "conservative" people have the opportunity to denounce racism, murder, and whatnot... but often take that opportunity to make sure they're not losing some sort of war with liberals. Maybe it's because I deal with ideas and not tribes, I have maintained plenty of friendships with "conservative" people and still myself cling to many "conservative" ideas about gun control, education, regulation, border policy, and government reach. Yet somehow I and they find themselves able to say "this is messed up" and not "oh woe is me, why am I being abused by the liberals run amok when I want to tut tut at them for being pissed about racism".

PaladinTom wrote:

Malor, I can't tell if you're sh*tposting or actually believe what you're writing.

I have seriously considered if Malor hasn't actually left the forum, and a Russian troll has taken over his account like we see all over Twitter and Facebook. He's having the exact same effect on us that Russia has been having on social media, turning conservatives into Hatemongers and liberals into fighting each other.

I'm as guilty as anyone for getting sucked right in.

Malor: Given the Nazi marches in Charlottesville over the last two days, today is not the day for this conversation. We've been over this ground again and again, but not right now. Take a break.

For what it's worth, note that I started this thread before any of that bullsh*t happened. (or at least before I'd heard about it.)

I bet it's been All Nazis, All The Time today, but I don't watch much TV, so it hadn't really filtered up to my conscious mind that the context is rather different than it was on Friday.

Malor wrote:
Malor: Given the Nazi marches in Charlottesville over the last two days, today is not the day for this conversation. We've been over this ground again and again, but not right now. Take a break.

For what it's worth, note that I started this thread before any of that bullsh*t happened. (or at least before I'd heard about it.)

I bet it's been All Nazis, All The Time today, but I don't watch much TV, so it hadn't really filtered up to my conscious mind that the context is rather different than it was on Friday.

MOD

due to recent events and how high tensions are running, I'm closing this thread for now. I don't want people saying things they might not truly mean and will regret. That, and the fact that the original topic has gone from theoretical to really f*cking real means that now really isn't the time to be arguing semantics. Perhaps we can revisit the case in the OP at a later date.