[Discussion] James Damore and the Google Manifesto

The Manifesto Mr. Damore wrote, it's implications, facts, or opinions, the hostile work environment it creates, the action of Google firing him, and the consequences of all of the above.

-

bandit0013 wrote:
Bloo Driver wrote:

You aren't understanding what's happening here - you're not being told you're wrong. No one above actually argued that this wasn't an issue. What people are taking exception to is you (once again, and not exclusively to you) taking a moment that is about the trouble women face in the workplace and making it into a story about how you're burdened. Don't you understand what's kinda wrong with that at all?

So it's impossible for a trouble women face (not enough senior male mentorship) to be caused by a problem those men face?

Interesting assertion.

Literally not at all what I was saying or implying, but I guess at this point I shouldn't be too surprised that your goal is just to strawman and twist your way into being the victim. Sorry that I tried to actually discuss it with you.

Edit: not in any way suggesting actual harassment doesn't happen, but sh*tty people make it really difficult for good people to do the right things as well. Recognizing that is just a tip of the hat at reality.

It's true. These systems are in place to prevent sh*tty people who abuse positions of power from, well, abusing positions of power. Even to prevent consensual relationships that will necessarily appear to be abuses of power.

Which is for good reason since people in positions of power (typically almost entirely men) have always and continue to do sh*tty things that ruin easy, casual relationships and workplaces for everyone else.

I think what many are trying to get across is that the frustration, inequality, and unfairness you feel about these particular incidents where one must appear at all times to be upright and professional and avoid even the hint of scandal or favoritism? That is being experienced constantly by a huge number of women. Not just in mentor / mentee relationships but in everyday work, in most meetings, in most manager relationships. All the time.

That feeling you feel when you interact with that mentee you mentioned? Imagine feeling that way about interacting with everyone.

-

bandit0013 wrote:

It triggers me because I just dealt with this a few months ago.

Junior female worker added to team under male team lead. Female worker asks a lot of questions, schedules extra review sessions, is voracious about learning. Male lead definitely spends more time mentoring her because she is growing, wants to accelerate, and damnit if that's not the right attitude.

Anonymous employee satisfaction survey time. Anon comment: Stop letting X (male lead) f--- Y (female junior) in exchange for extra attention.

Sigh... now HR sees this and gets involved. We have to set them both down and ask them point blank if there's anything going on between them. Both are horrified, both deny any impropriety. Both still work together reasonably well, but the flair and excitement for learning in growth is not anywhere near where it was. All because some jealous asshole on the team had to lash out. (I don't know if it was a male or female, we have a much better representation (60/40) than most).

I've been doing this a long time. I have way more examples of people just being sh*tty than I do of actual harassment... and actual harassment has always been dealt with quickly and severely. As it should be.

Edit: not in any way suggesting actual harassment doesn't happen, but sh*tty people make it really difficult for good people to do the right things as well. Recognizing that is just a tip of the hat at reality.

Sounds like a typical corporation with few, if any, women in high leadership roles. Men in power feel powerless to promote women. It's just a darn shame. But what are you gonna do?

I guess just hiring men is the easy answer. Because getting rid of men that whine that women only get ahead by sleeping with their bosses is just too damn radical. So, sadly, women will just have to understand that the men running things have already tried. It's just too hard.

You know, it's entirely possible for men to want relationships with attractive young men, and vice versa, even when one or both of them are married to women.

bandit0013 wrote:

Bloo- Lolz... You didn't try to discuss anything. You know this isn't the feminism thread with FAQ right? Maybe you should stop policing the thread and try actually contributing.

But hey, if you call me a victim 10 or 12 more times I'm sure it will stick.

I like how me trying to explain something you're missing is "policing" the thread, Norm.. Er. Bandit.

Sorry. I'll let you be, obviously I'm just too authoritarian trying to talk to you like a human being.

-

bandit0013 wrote:

Sigh... now HR sees this and gets involved. We have to set them both down and ask them point blank if there's anything going on between them.

Maybe... just maybe... lone unsubstantiated anonymous comments should not be given enough weight to create this situation. This was a manufactured problem.

bandit0013 wrote:

Though if you "feel that way interacting with everyone" you may have a legitimate anxiety disorder. High IQ is correlated with higher than average anxiety.

Demyx and others have talked at length about how they are always watching their backs at work, always feeling judged. Like any excuse might be taken to view them as less inherently qualified at their job (like, perhaps, accusing someone of an improper mentor / mentee relationship).

I'm listening and believing them when they say so.

IMAGE(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHMa6eRWsAAkiPd.jpg:large)

-

TheGameguru wrote:
The fact that you refuse to recognize that the social atmosphere in large organizations works this way is a pretty big indicator that you are not in senior leadership and have no idea what you're talking about. But hey, it's cool, ignore the point because it's much easier to twist my experience into only women being to blame and think that I'm trying to be a victim, which is laughable because I'm doing just fine, thanks.

I'm sorry I couldn't hear you over all that winning you are doing.

I don't think you are really being fair to him. All he did was give a personal reason why he had problems mentoring women. I didn't see it as him painting himself as a victim or even claiming his reaction was the correct way to handle the situation.

You didn't really add anything to the conversation. You could have said where you thought he went wrong or what he could do better. All you did was accuse him of being a victim and worse still you didn't even bother to state why you thought he was claiming to be a victim. Your response just wasn't helpful and in my opinion troll like for not backing up your claim.

Men not wanting to associate with women in fear of losing their jobs is one reason for the lack of mentors for women. I'm not sure if it is a valid concern but I know I heard it multiple times from guys. That is not to say it is the main reason for lack of mentors for women, just a reason. I think the situation can be worked out though. If you go out do so in a group. No reason you can't mentor more than one person or have two mentors. Do what teachers do and mentor in the open. Make sure not to show favoritism in one person. You don't have to always mentor in person. If you are worry what the office gossips will think email is a option or some other form of communication.

Another reason would be lack of a aggressive women organizations looking for mentors. In my job we had a number of minority groups looking for people to help mentor people but none dedicated to women. This isn't a easy thing to form if there are very few women in the company. I also suspect having to be better than the men women might not take the time or have the time to help out the women in lower positions. No idea if that is true in any significant way.

bandit0013 wrote:
*Legion* wrote:
bandit0013 wrote:

Sigh... now HR sees this and gets involved. We have to set them both down and ask them point blank if there's anything going on between them.

Maybe... just maybe... lone unsubstantiated anonymous comments should not be given enough weight to create this situation. This was a manufactured problem.

That's not how it works in HR-land. If someone makes an allegation you have to do due diligence or else if the allegation turns out to be true you end up with big liability.

Yeah, women have been saying for years just how effective going to HR with issues is.

More and more this is sounding like an episode of The Office where Michael says that they've had plenty of black employees, it's not their fault they keep quitting.

-

You didn't really add anything to the conversation. You could have said where you thought he went wrong or what he could do better. All you did was accuse him of being a victim and worse still you didn't even bother to state why you thought he was claiming to be a victim. Your response just wasn't helpful and in my opinion troll like for not backing up your claim.

I'm sorry there is a legitimate conversation being had here? I must have missed it over the trolling posts of an obvious troll. I don't believe Bandit is real or even trying on good faith here. His white male corporate fantasy scenarios (which have happened I'm sure but are fringe cases and are basically #notallwhitecorporatedudes) are glossing over the real problems and trying to paint both sides (woman and men) as equal in the problem of sexism at work.

I do have an anxiety disorder. That does not discredit everything I had to say.

But thanks for reminding me again why trying to discuss this kind of thing always ends in my being told it's my imagination.

-

bandit0013 wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:

Yeah, women have been saying for years just how effective going to HR with issues is.

More and more this is sounding like an episode of The Office where Michael says that they've had plenty of black employees, it's not their fault they keep quitting.

It's not effective. HR doesn't exist for the worker, it exists to protect the company. End stop. Anyone with a lick of sense/experience realizes this.

IMAGE(https://media.giphy.com/media/YqJAwUqISHKSI/giphy.gif)

-

Hey so this thread got big fast. I will TOTALLY go back and read it....

ANYWAY, if you're looking for something to counter-protest, here.

oilypenguin wrote:

Hey so this thread got big fast. I will TOTALLY go back and read it....

ANYWAY, if you're looking for something to counter-protest, here.

Oh good a needless protest at one of the biggest intersections of traffic in North Austin. Superb. Do these people even know what they're protesting? I mean, sure: they've got a lot of buzzwords down, but this isn't really matching up.

-

something something first amendment.

oilypenguin wrote:

Hey so this thread got big fast. I will TOTALLY go back and read it....

ANYWAY, if you're looking for something to counter-protest, here.

I mean his path to redemption is so amazing and awesome. Glad nobody over-reacted to his appearance on noted Alt-Right sh*tbags.

bandit0013 wrote:

Anonymous employee satisfaction survey time. Anon comment: Stop letting X (male lead) f--- Y (female junior) in exchange for extra attention.

Earlier in the thread when you first brought this up, you said it was due to jealousy. If they are really anonymous messages, I find it very interesting you assume it's jealous bitches and not some dude that got passed over.

bandit0013 wrote:

Jolly, while I'm empathize with the point you're trying to make, that brush is way too broad. The systems are needed, but we also need people to grow up and accept that mixed sex mentorship pairings are healthy and natural and that the default position shouldn't be that they're sexually charged.

#NotAllMen

bandit0013 wrote:

Though if you "feel that way interacting with everyone" you may have a legitimate anxiety disorder. High IQ is correlated with higher than average anxiety.

Abelist gaslighting

bandit0013 wrote:

Oh I believe the feeling. But if you use words like always, everyone, etc. that is a symptom of anxiety disorder. Some statistics put the number of people with anxiety disorders of some kind as high as 18% of the population. When it is additionally correlated to high IQ you can reasonably suppose that workers at a place like Google may have a 1:5 chance of having an anxiety disorder of some kind.

Something very wrong with our society is that we treat mental disorders like a form of the plague, something to be ashamed up which prevents people from seeking help.

More ableism while pretending not to be ableist

bandit0013 wrote:

It's not effective. HR doesn't exist for the worker, it exists to protect the company. End stop. Anyone with a lick of sense/experience realizes this.

Yep. Women and minorities fought for anti-harrassment laws because they wanted to protect the company. ok.

I think it is safe to say that HR groups are tasked with protecting the company they are in as a high priority.

That being said that tasking should not be used as an excuse that institutional sexism, racism, etc cannot be delt with.

Garrcia wrote:

I think it is safe to say that HR groups are tasked with protecting the company they are in as a high priority.

That being said that tasking should not be used as an excuse that institutional sexism, racism, etc cannot be delt with.

Thank you Mr Mansplainer. I totally didn't know that.

The point is that the laws exist to protect marginalized groups from harassment. Those laws are there to protect the employees. Following them protects the company. Not creating a hostile work environment is good for business. Weird right?

So yeah, if bandit is saying HR doesn't exist for the worker, then if you define the worker as white cishet men, sure it doesn't exist for them. If complying with these laws and policies is really that much of a burden to you, maybe you should take a long look in the mirror.

bandit0013 wrote:

@jayhawk

If you're confused, give this a read:

https://www.peoplehr.com/blog/index....

HR's #1 responsibility is to the company, i.e. making sure the company doesn't get sued.

Right. Got it. Man complains to HR about woman getting extra attention, that gets shut down. Woman complains about men ignoring them, things go on as usual.

The confusion is that it is incompressible that you don't see the double standards, and just how easy it is for you to benefit from them. You, and men that think like you, are the problem. You are the ones that need to leave. You are the ones making workplaces so abhorrent.

There are plenty of men that get it. You are not one of them. All you have done here is provide example after example of why you should have any role in leadership in any corporation. But you are protected by white male privilege.

So, when you were questioned by HR, did you get demoted? Did you get written up? Were you told to take sexual harassment classes? Or was the mere questioning of you enough for you to decide, "f*ck it. Mentoring women is just too risky."

Jayhawker wrote:
bandit0013 wrote:

@jayhawk

If you're confused, give this a read:

https://www.peoplehr.com/blog/index....

HR's #1 responsibility is to the company, i.e. making sure the company doesn't get sued.

Right. Got it. Man complains to HR about woman getting extra attention, that gets shut down. Woman complains about men ignoring them, things go on as usual.

The confusion is that it is incompressible that you don't see the double standards, and just how easy it is for you to benefit from them. You, and men that think like you, are the problem. You are the ones that need to leave. You are the ones making workplaces so abhorrent.

There are plenty of men that get it. You are not one of them. All you have done here is provide example after example of why you should have any role in leadership in any corporation. But you are protected by white male privilege.

So, when you were questioned by HR, did you get demoted? Did you get written up? Were you told to take sexual harassment classes? Or was the mere questioning of you enough for you to decide, "f*ck it. Mentoring women is just too risky."

IMAGE(https://media.giphy.com/media/WSHcRAndOoQnu/giphy.gif)

Garden Ninja wrote:
Garrcia wrote:

I think it is safe to say that HR groups are tasked with protecting the company they are in as a high priority.

That being said that tasking should not be used as an excuse that institutional sexism, racism, etc cannot be delt with.

Thank you Mr Mansplainer. I totally didn't know that.

...

yonder in slack pointed out this thread is moving very fast and this may not have been directed at me. If that is the case, my apologies.