The Manifesto Mr. Damore wrote, it's implications, facts, or opinions, the hostile work environment it creates, the action of Google firing him, and the consequences of all of the above.
To answer. Nope. But with the spread of misinformation, social media, and down right ignorance; there sure seems to be more.
It's more that behavior that was excused and downplayed in the past is being called out now.
The Conformist wrote:To answer. Nope. But with the spread of misinformation, social media, and down right ignorance; there sure seems to be more.
It's more that behavior that was excused and downplayed in the past is being called out now.
Yes, and also that behavior is a direct result of pushback against racism and sexism. James Damore is angry about diversity initiatives; in the past, diversity initiatives didn't even exist.
In a strange coincidence I heard my first Joe Rogan podcast today, since a colleague was listening to it in the lab. Before today I had no knowledge of Joe Rogan, aside from a vague memory that he hosted some sort of sports/reality show on Spike some years ago.
It might've been the particular guest that was on - an economist (?) with some pretty crazy ideas that thinks we should abandon fiat money and go back to the gold standard (Peter Shift or something like that) - but Joe Rogan seemed like he was in way over his head. He, once or twice, tried to vaguely challenge something that his guest said, but lacked the confidence and the basic knowledge to effectively challenge anything. He didn't even ask what the evidence was for the crazier claims and statements (eg. at one point the guest claimed that the gender pay gap doesn't exist, stating that we've all been misled by fake statistics). That is, it didn't seem like he'd been sufficiently briefed on the subject matter before the interview began, or like he'd done much independent research. The result was that Rogan got completely steamrolled and the podcast turned into a long rant by the guest where Rogan ended up pretty much agreeing with everything the guest said, even the stuff that was probably nonsense or seemingly presented in self-interest. Sometimes he was reluctant to agree at first, but he never left me with the impression that he wasn't convinced by the time they moved to a new topic. Maybe he had another guest on the next podcast to present some contrary ideas, but based on what I heard I rather doubt it.
I might have missed some of the detail and nuance as I was working while I listened, but my first impression of Rogan was that he couldn't provide a directed or controlled interview and pretty much provided a platform for his guest to rant. He was either unqualified or unwilling to challenge the guest, and didn't make up for that by presenting another guest with a different opinion or even mentioning what other theories on a topic are (beyond the guest saying repeatedly "liberal economists will tell you that..."). I don't expect this in every context or from every interviewer, but there was no apparent effort to be balanced about anything. If I were to listen to another episode, my impression is that I should expect it to be another chance to be a mouthpiece for some confident right-wing fast-talking. This is only n=1, but it was anything but balanced.
Perhaps next week I'll get to listen to the James Damore episode while I work...
Edit to spoiler, as it's contributing to a bit of a derail.
The Conformist wrote:To answer. Nope. But with the spread of misinformation, social media, and down right ignorance; there sure seems to be more.
It's more that behavior that was excused and downplayed in the past is being called out now.
And if I might say so, FINALLY!
*Legion* wrote:The Conformist wrote:To answer. Nope. But with the spread of misinformation, social media, and down right ignorance; there sure seems to be more.
It's more that behavior that was excused and downplayed in the past is being called out now.
And if I might say so, FINALLY!
Yeah, in case I wasn't clear, I'm on the side of that calling out being a good thing.
Certainly there have been cases of people going over the top, being too inflexible, or overly combative to the point of being unproductive. Identity and purity politics have seeped into everything. But on the whole, the needle has been pointed toward the permissive side for too long, and pulling that needle back in the other direction is both welcome and long overdue.
In a strange coincidence I heard my first Joe Rogan podcast today, since a colleague was listening to it in the lab. Before today I had no knowledge of Joe Rogan, aside from a vague memory that he hosted some sort of sports/reality show on Spike some years ago.
Spoiler:It might've been the particular guest that was on - an economist (?) with some pretty crazy ideas that thinks we should abandon fiat money and go back to the gold standard (Peter Shift or something like that) - but Joe Rogan seemed like he was in way over his head. He, once or twice, tried to vaguely challenge something that his guest said, but lacked the confidence and the basic knowledge to effectively challenge anything. He didn't even ask what the evidence was for the crazier claims and statements (eg. at one point the guest claimed that the gender pay gap doesn't exist, stating that we've all been misled by fake statistics). That is, it didn't seem like he'd been sufficiently briefed on the subject matter before the interview began, or like he'd done much independent research. The result was that Rogan got completely steamrolled and the podcast turned into a long rant by the guest where Rogan ended up pretty much agreeing with everything the guest said, even the stuff that was probably nonsense or seemingly presented in self-interest. Sometimes he was reluctant to agree at first, but he never left me with the impression that he wasn't convinced by the time they moved to a new topic. Maybe he had another guest on the next podcast to present some contrary ideas, but based on what I heard I rather doubt it.
I might have missed some of the detail and nuance as I was working while I listened, but my first impression of Rogan was that he couldn't provide a directed or controlled interview and pretty much provided a platform for his guest to rant. He was either unqualified or unwilling to challenge the guest, and didn't make up for that by presenting another guest with a different opinion or even mentioning what other theories on a topic are (beyond the guest saying repeatedly "liberal economists will tell you that..."). I don't expect this in every context or from every interviewer, but there was no apparent effort to be balanced about anything. If I were to listen to another episode, my impression is that I should expect it to be another chance to be a mouthpiece for some confident right-wing fast-talking. This is only n=1, but it was anything but balanced.
Perhaps next week I'll get to listen to the James Damore episode while I work...
Edit to spoiler, as it's contributing to a bit of a derail.
I can see how people like to listen to Rogan but no idea why for politics or social commentary etc. He's not interested or investing in a real debate.
Its pretty much talk radio where he skims the surface and moves on to the next current hot topic. Not a criticism. That's how you make money and keep lots of people engaged.
The Rogan/Damore interview sounds exactly like the podcast you reference. Rogan put giant pillows on his questions and proceeded to pretty much let the guest be right.
Questions is even a loaded term as he pretty much led him and agreed.
If anything he just seemed obsessed about biases and mentioning what about a bias against white males also.
People just need to take that first step and consciously admit they are programmed to be biased. Funny part is I'm not sure why this is so hard for some people. Logically to me it makes more sense to admit my biases then to try and defend myself and flip the argument.
TheGameguru wrote:The Conformist wrote:Dr.Ghastly wrote:Alex Jones is "kind of a weird dude"? Really..that racist, sexist pos is...weird? Ok...sure.
I can't claim to know much about him. So weird is the only adjective I deemed to use. I heard rumors about things, but nowadays everyone and their dog is racist and sexist. I usually like to invest my own time in figuring that out before I make assumptions and label. But those don't seem to be far from the truth hah.
Was there a time when everyone and their dog wasn't racist and sexist?
Pepperage Farm remembers.
To answer. Nope. But with the spread of misinformation, social media, and down right ignorance; there sure seems to be more.
You are stuck in the Triple Stage of Darkness. I suggest you spend some time seeking illumination.
*Legion* wrote:The Conformist wrote:To answer. Nope. But with the spread of misinformation, social media, and down right ignorance; there sure seems to be more.
It's more that behavior that was excused and downplayed in the past is being called out now.
Yes, and also that behavior is a direct result of pushback against racism and sexism. James Damore is angry about diversity initiatives; in the past, diversity initiatives didn't even exist.
The fact that constructs like social media have given more people a platform to speak that in the past would have largely been ignored plays into the degradation of public discourse. Reality TV will be the death of us all.
https://twitter.com/JamesADamore/sta...
The KKK is horrible and I don’t support them in any way, but can we admit that their internal title names are cool, e.g. “Grand Wizard”?You know you’ve moralized an issue when you can’t criticize its heroes or acknowledge any positive aspect of its villains.
It’s like teaching your child to be responsible about drugs and sex without addressing the fact that they can be fun.
If you make the actual KKK the only place where you can acknowledge the coolness of D&D terms, then you’ll just push people into the KKK.
https://twitter.com/JamesADamore/sta...
The KKK is horrible and I don’t support them in any way, but can we admit that their internal title names are cool, e.g. “Grand Wizard”?You know you’ve moralized an issue when you can’t criticize its heroes or acknowledge any positive aspect of its villains.
It’s like teaching your child to be responsible about drugs and sex without addressing the fact that they can be fun.
If you make the actual KKK the only place where you can acknowledge the coolness of D&D terms, then you’ll just push people into the KKK.
Adding "Thinks titles based on D&D are 'cool' in the real world" to the long, long list of things James Damore is unequivocally wrong about.
If you make the actual KKK the only place where you can acknowledge the coolness of D&D terms, then you’ll just push people into the KKK.
TIL I can't talk about the coolness of D&D terms during my D&D sessions. Or when I'm playing The Witcher, Skyrim, or one of the many, many video games involving magic users. Or when I'm reading a fantasy book or watching GOT or any of the TV shows that involve magical powers.
If you make the actual KKK the only place where you can acknowledge the coolness of D&D terms, then you’ll just push people into the KKK.TIL I can't talk about the coolness of D&D terms during my D&D sessions. Or when I'm playing The Witcher, Skyrim, or one of the many, many video games involving magic users. Or when I'm reading a fantasy book or watching GOT or any of the TV shows that involve magical powers.
Or when being a social justice warrior (or rogue, wizard, sorcerer, barbarian, cleric, bard, ranger, druid, paladin, etc.)
Truly wizards are pariahs abandoned by society. I can't think of a single phenomenally popular and unimaginably lucrative franchise about Wizards.
Guys when I try and talk about how comfy and utilitarian my white robe and hood is, everyone gets all upset. Honestly, if we can't be adults and casually discuss iconography that has been used to terrify people, I think the real problem is the people pushing back against me.
Guys when I try and talk about how comfy and utilitarian my white robe and hood is, everyone gets all upset. Honestly, if we can't be adults and casually discuss iconography that has been used to terrify people, I think the real problem is the people pushing back against me.
Utilitarian?
Capes are not robes.
Wow maybe this whole "you're the real problem" thing has some merit. Damn.
Capes are not robes.
A robe is just a cape that's confused about which way is forward.
Bloo Driver wrote:Capes are not robes.
A robe is just a cape that's confused about which way is forward.
If you make the actual KKK the only place where you can acknowledge the coolness of D&D terms, then you’ll just push people into the KKK.
Has any one ever in the history of the organization said to themselves, "I wanna say wizards are cool, but I've been getting bullied for it. I know! It's the KKK for me!"
If you make the actual KKK the only place where you can acknowledge the coolness of D&D terms, then you’ll just push people into the KKK.
Has any one ever in the history of the organization said to themselves, "I wanna say wizards are cool, but I've been getting bullied for it. I know! It's the KKK for me!"
He's an idiot. Doesn't he have a PHD or something? Crazy.
You know, maybe? The alt-right does target bullied nerds with memes. Before Superman exposed all their secrets (thanks to real-life hero Stetson Kennedy), the mystery surrounding the KKK was one of the primary reasons people joined (edit- well, other than the racism and desire to terrorize and kill black people).
Shitty people always want to blame other people when trying to justify their shittiness. It's part of what makes them shitty.
You know, maybe? The alt-right does target bullied nerds with memes. Before Superman exposed all their secrets (thanks to real-life hero Stetson Kennedy), the mystery surrounding the KKK was one of the primary reasons people joined.
The KKK featured in one of the original Sherlock Holmes stories, "The Five Orange Pips". The story was published in 1891 and was set around 1890, 20 or so years after its first incarnation had mostly died out. The description given in Doyle's story is radically different than how we think of them today, and I'm sure the mystery and mystique played a big role in that:
"Have you never—" said Sherlock Holmes, bending forward and sinking his voice—"have you never heard of the Ku Klux Klan?""I never have."
Holmes turned over the leaves of the book upon his knee. "Here it is," said he presently:
" ‘Ku Klux Klan. A name derived from the fanciful resemblance to the sound produced by cocking a rifle. This terrible secret society was formed by some ex-Confederate soldiers in the Southern states after the Civil War, and it rapidly formed local branches in different parts of the country, notably in Tennessee, Louisiana, the Carolinas, Georgia, and Florida. Its power was used for political purposes, principally for the terrorising of the negro voters and the murdering and driving from the country of those who were opposed to its views. Its outrages were usually preceded by a warning sent to the marked man in some fantastic but generally recognised shape—a sprig of oak-leaves in some parts, melon seeds or orange pips in others. On receiving this the victim might either openly abjure his former ways, or might fly from the country. If he braved the matter out, death would unfailingly come upon him, and usually in some strange and unforeseen manner. So perfect was the organisation of the society, and so systematic its methods, that there is hardly a case upon record where any man succeeded in braving it with impunity, or in which any of its outrages were traced home to the perpetrators. For some years the organisation flourished in spite of the efforts of the United States government and of the better classes of the community in the South. Eventually, in the year 1869, the movement rather suddenly collapsed, although there have been sporadic outbreaks of the same sort since that date.’"
He's an idiot. Doesn't he have a PHD or something? Crazy.
He dropped out of his PhD program. This didn't stop him from spending years claiming he had a PhD, until people took a closer look at his LinkedIn profile and realized that the dates didn't line up.
DSGamer wrote:He's an idiot. Doesn't he have a PHD or something? Crazy.
He dropped out of his PhD program. This didn't stop him from spending years claiming he had a PhD, until people took a closer look at his LinkedIn profile and realized that the dates didn't line up.
That's perfect.
I think you're all being very unfair ignoring all the good that the KKK does; like the bake sales, pledge drives and fulfilling dying children's wishes.
Don't worry, you guys, it's been solved!
Don't worry, you guys, it's been solved!
I was worried about the diversity claim in the last part on Ongoing Efforts, but then I spotted that they included a visually disabled person in the group. (Oh and he's bald too!)
Pages