Kingdom Come: Deliverance - Catch All

Also, as @medievalpoc has been pointing out for years, there is a long tradition in representational art of black people in Western Europe, including Bohemia. I'd guess 15th Century artists knew a bit more about their contemporaries than you or I.

http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/tagged...

And, from further down that link:

I have to say…do I really need to point out what reason there might be for there to actually be FEWER people of color in this area NOW than there were say, before the 1930s? Slavic people with “Asiatic features” were specifically singled out for the genocidal policies of the Nazis, including the dispensation of Slavic POWs. I’m talking about the Commissar Order:

The Commissar Order read: “The originators of barbaric, Asiatic methods of warfare are the political commissars…. Therefore, when captured either in battle or offering resistance, they are to be shot on principle.”

There was an extermination camp 37 miles north of Prague itself.

And I still haven’t even gotten into the History of the Roma in Bohemia/Morovia and/or the Czech Republic. In 2013 there were some 30 or 40 anti-Romani marches in the Czech republic by right-wing parties and Neo-Nazis, as well as violent anti-Romani riots.

Tanglebones wrote:

Also, as @medievalpoc has been pointing out for years, there is a long tradition in representational art of black people in Western Europe, including Bohemia. I'd guess 15th Century artists knew a bit more about their contemporaries than you or I.

http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/tagged...

Careful now. All the folks portrayed in the artwork shown here are historical and/or mythical figures who are not contemporary with the KCD timeline and thus would not be chilling in Rattay in the early 15th century. Some also have clearly Euro features and are just colored dark leading me to think the artists have never seen someone of Sub-Saharan African decent BUT:

Whatever! Guru has the right of it in that if people don't want to support GamerGate folks or anyone tangentially related to GG then that's reason enough to avoid the game.

Despite all the drama, I just think it would be weird to have token non-Euros show up in KCD but it certainly wouldn't ruin anything for me. I think the potions are weird too btw - the horses' pouches are not unlimited tho - jeeze, get your facts straight /s (I can confirm they do teleport - or are very sneaky however).

Bringing the art of the period into the discussion is super interesting in any case. If you guys are interested (and I know you are!), there is a great, well-researched rebuttal of the silly claims that AssCreed Origins was blackwashing history.

I have a background in archaeology and physical anthropology so I dove down the rabbit hole on the ethnic admixture of Egypt during the Ptolemaic period and one of the big takeaways of this argument (and similar ones in other regions of the world) is that the phenotypes present modern populations are surprisingly representative of the historical populations. There are many notable exceptions of course but when you start doing genetic testing of populations and see the cold story of where our origins lay in our genes, the whole debate becomes less emotional and political and a whole lot more sciencey I would love to see someone qualified to do an analysis on the ethnic representation in KCD. I would be happy if I was proven wrong that there was little genetic diversity in the region at the time because it would be interesting as hell!

This may be the first game to treat maces/warhammers well. They feel really good. Now I would love to see a mod where someone adds in Robert Baratheon's warhammer.

Nevin73 wrote:

This may be the first game to treat maces/warhammers well. They feel really good. Now I would love to see a mod where someone adds in Robert Baratheon's warhammer.

Speaking of weapons and mods. There's one thing i'm annoyed with the game. Polearms. The mod allow you to use, store them, but you're still unable to riposte and the block emblem never shows up when you're in combat. It's like WarHorse intentionally left that out which is sloppy.

Yeah, I'm disappointed by the lack of polearms as well. They're there, it just seems like WH couldn't get it down and just dropped it.

Interesting article from RPS on claims of historical accuracy.
This particular passage hit on something that's bugged me with this game:

Some of the biggest exclusions, however, stem from a fetishizing of the ‘typical’. Non-conformism or ‘deviancy’ is practically non-existent: there are no rebellious women, no revolutionaries, no religious sceptics on the one hand, no religious fanatics on the other, no representatives of other cultures apart from murderous Cumans, and really no misfits of any kind that aren’t common thugs. Despite the backstory of war, slaughter, and displacement, Bohemia is shown as a place of homogenous equilibrium and conformity, where everyone, peasant to lord, knows their place and is content with it. In those few cases where we get to meet someone atypical, like the brawling, drinking, and decidedly un-celibate priest Godwin or the three ‘witches’ of Uzhiz who crop up in a ludicrously ahistorical side quest, their deviancy is played wholly for laughs.

It's like they've taken the biggest section of the bell curve across all possible behaviours/beliefs/demographics, applied that too literally all people in the game and called it a day. I'm not sure how much of this is due to the devs either not knowing, not caring, or simply just that they're a small studio making their first game. A game which is clearly not really finished as it is. It'd be easier to give them the benefit of the doubt if it weren't for Vávra, of course...

The article hits on a few other things too and is definitely worth a read. In the comments of the article, someone also linked to a thread on r/badhistory that's also worth look, even if it's a little nitpicky.

I find it very amusing that RPS has the balls to write an article about accuracy.

ranalin wrote:

I find it very amusing that RPS has the balls to write an article about accuracy.

No sh**t.

That whole article reads like a justification for a modern revisionist history textbook..with Wikipedia as the new source material and ultimate academic authority. Apparently, because we can never be sure how things really were back then, we should ignore all historical research in favor of whatever edgy Americans currently think it should have been. I'm pretty sure the game, unrealistic as it likely is, understates the barbarity and squalor of the times. They were called the Dark Ages for a reason.

Still, though, it's a game, and the developers shouldn't have been making claims that that they were accurately simulating history. No way is the game as brutal, racist, sexist, and utterly disrespecting of human life as things were in that period of human history. Can you imagine the crowd of protestors that would assemble on the developers/publishers respective doorstep if it was. Now THAT's amusing.

ChipRMonk wrote:
ranalin wrote:

I find it very amusing that RPS has the balls to write an article about accuracy.

No sh**t.

That whole article reads like a justification for a modern revisionist history textbook..with Wikipedia as the new source material and ultimate academic authority. Apparently, because we can never be sure how things really were back then, we should ignore all historical research in favor of whatever edgy Americans currently think it should have been. I'm pretty sure the game, unrealistic as it likely is, understates the barbarity and squalor of the times. They were called the Dark Ages for a reason.

Hear hear!

I have always been a fan of rps, but the hate these guys give this game has gone quite a ways in turning me sour on them. It feels like a vendetta at this point... I really don't think I've read a description of the game from them that doesn't get into the weeds on this garbage.

Coming at this from the other side, some of the defense of this game appears just as nonsensical as people claim the criticism to be. I put in 30~ or so hours before the bugs and -isms drove me away and sometimes I wonder if I played the same game as some of you.

ruhk wrote:

Coming at this from the other side, some of the defense of this game appears just as nonsensical as people claim the criticism to be. I put in 30~ or so hours before the bugs and -isms drove me away and sometimes I wonder if I played the same game as some of you.

With 30 hours in, you would know that the RPS article is also nonsensical and I'm quite sure that the author did not play the game (or hate-played it with the predetermined goal of penning a postmodern piece on RPS).

I care zero if someone doesn't like a game for whatever reason and doesn't buy or play it. It's annoying when someone who hasn't played the game campaigns against others buying and enjoying it. It's downright obnoxious when folks start flat out making sh*t up to score ideological points. And here we are.

I LOVE RPS. It's got the 2nd best gaming articles on the net in my opinion (after Eurogamer) but they got this one wrong. I could do a point by point rebuttal on the RPS article but I'll restrain myself to a few from the excerpt above.

[Spoilered so you don't have to make an unwilling save vs. tedium...and actual spoilers]

Spoiler:
Non-conformism or ‘deviancy’ is practically non-existent: there are no rebellious women, no revolutionaries, no religious sceptics on the one hand, no religious fanatic.

No revolutionaries or skeptics they say? How about Jan Hus and sowing the seeds of the Hussite Rebellion which is a major underlying theme of the game reflected in both conversations with the laity and the clergy.

No rebellious women they say? How about Tereza who risks life and limb coming back to Skalitz in a fantasy trope reversal to save Henry despite Henry (at least my Henry) cowering in a bush while she gets assaulted by soldiers sacking the town.

I love how they handled religion here. There are a whole spectrum of religious views represented in the game from cynical charlatans making a quick buck on the faith of simple small folk to outwardly pious clerics with little interest in helping the children of god who have fallen on hard times.

Finally, what really got me thinking about the RPS article is this paragraph:

RPS wrote:

An equally problematic modern imposition, however, might be the idea of realism itself. Or rather, the idea that realism is synonymous with historical authenticity. Our modern ideas of realism would probably have been entirely unintelligible to people living in medieval times, who held beliefs and ideas that seem utterly alien to us today, but that were absolutely ‘real’ to them. Those Bohemian peasants burning down their homes in religious ecstasy probably would not have subscribed to our rationalist, materialistic world view. We are intended to experience this medieval world not as a time traveller, but through the eyes of an authentically medieval ‘average Joe’, but the fact that we are able to slip into Henry’s skin without any friction or culture shock should tell you enough. This doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be allowed to look at past societies from a modern understanding of the world, but any game that unthinkingly embraces realism as a shortcut to an authentic ‘medieval experience’ will likely end up distorting the past.

Much like the modern ethic composition of a given population largely reflects the ethnicity of the historical population, 'modern' culture is simply the current state of millennia of cultural buildup. There isn't dramatic culture shock slipping into Henry's ratty slippers because cultures around the world didn't suddenly become enlightened on the stroke of midnight on January 1st, 1969 and discard all archaic beliefs. Hell, even cultures that have had literal, systematic Cultural Revolutions could not wipe out the cultural buildup completely. Turns out Chinese food, medicine and characters are useful and tough to get rid of (the jury's still out on Confucianism but Emperor Xi is currently enjoying it...I mean Long Live Chairman Xi!)

In cultures descended from Central-West Europe (including US and Canada), we not only still hear the echoes of Henry's world in 2018, in some cases that culture is practically screaming in our ears - think about how much North American culture is still strongly influenced by puritanical ideals (both on the right and the left) and a little closer to the 'Jesus Christ be praised' greetings of Henry's world that sound quaint (I hope) to most 'modern' English speakers, in Bavaria and Austria they still say Grüß Gott (a contraction of God Bless you) as a common greeting in one of the most secular regions in the world!

Wait a minute...it's as if incrementally understanding the culture of Henry's world (via the game or game-inspired extra-game research, even if the source material is biased or not completely accurate - a red herring as others have pointed out) is precisely what we need to help us get closer to understanding the underpinnings of cultural phenomenon that are the root cause of patriarchal, class-based and xenophobic distortions that persist and influence our 'modern' social structures that we all should be concerned about!

Bonus topic!
The Queen of Sheba who appears in the the artwork of the well intentioned but academically suspect @medievalpoc post linked above makes an (indirect) showing in a side quest in the game! I find this neat and ironic

TrashiDawa wrote:
ruhk wrote:

Coming at this from the other side, some of the defense of this game appears just as nonsensical as people claim the criticism to be. I put in 30~ or so hours before the bugs and -isms drove me away and sometimes I wonder if I played the same game as some of you.

With 30 hours in, you would know that the RPS article is also nonsensical and I'm quite sure that the author did not play the game (or hate-played it with the predetermined goal of penning a postmodern piece on RPS).

I actually largely agree with the RPS article. I could just as easily characterize the defense of this game as the stereotypical tendency of fans to circle the wagons around products they’ve bought into- the same tendency that drives console wars and pc vs console debates. We’ve all done it at some point.

EDIT: also, the article specifically calls out Jan Hus as really only being name-checked a couple times and not really contributing to the story. And Tereza, rebellious? The same character that has a brief moment of agency only to be consigned to placeholder sexual conquest? Maybe she comes into her own at hour 70 but I haven’t seen it.

ruhk wrote:

EDIT: also, the article specifically calls out Jan Hus as really only being name-checked a couple times and not really contributing to the story. And Tereza, rebellious? The same character that has a brief moment of agency only to be consigned to placeholder sexual conquest? Maybe she comes into her own at hour 70 but I haven’t seen it.

Thanks for addressing specific points.

The Hussite movement plays an explicit role in the main story line in the priest quest that RPS calls out for 'playing for laughs'. There is also dialog that mentions his ideology with NPCs, not to mention codex entries that further contextualize he and his movement as one of the sparks between the laity and the Church.

The post-romance Tereza unresponsiveness is poorly done. We can agree on this. But I don't think it's it's accurate to frame her role as one shining moment only to be relegated to a trophy. It is established in the first hour that there is a mutual attraction between Tereza and Henry, Henry fails to save her (firmly establishing Henry's impotence at that stage in the game), then there is a complex dialog tree after Henry wakes up in Rattay to discuss the events in Skalitz that have nothing to do with sex or Henry and Tereza's budding relationship. Even with the fumbled follow-through after they have sex, is it really unbelievable that two young people who were already attracted to each other hooked up after sharing an extremely traumatic experience?

TrashiDawa wrote:

The post-romance Tereza unresponsiveness is poorly done. We can agree on this. But I don't think it's it's accurate to frame her role as one shining moment only to be relegated to a trophy. It is established in the first hour that there is a mutual attraction between Tereza and Henry, Henry fails to save her (firmly establishing Henry's impotence at that stage in the game), then there is a complex dialog tree after Henry wakes up in Rattay to discuss the events in Skalitz that have nothing to do with sex or Henry and Tereza's budding relationship. Even with the fumbled follow-through after they have sex, is it really unbelievable that two young people who were already attracted to each other hooked up after sharing an extremely traumatic experience?

That’s it though, she only exists as a plot point for the player. She has a brief post-Skalitz dialogue and then you can’t interact with her again until Nightingale suggests you ask her out, after which all your interactions are geared towards her sexual conquest. I got distracted by the bandit attack storyline “before completion” of the romance storyline (right after you take her to the bar, not certain how much there is after that), but I’m going to take a wild guess and say that her dialogue probably dries up shortly after the sex scene as well.
For all of The Witcher’s shortcomings at least Triss has motives that don’t entirely revolve around Geralt.

The game just handles women in general very poorly. I can only recall five named female characters during my entire play through, three of which get killed within minutes of being introduced. It’s heavily implied that Teresa gets raped, though she seems mostly fine with it. The noblewoman in Talmberg barely has any dialogue and basically only exists as a puzzle solution (though considering how weird your first encounter with her is, I wouldn’t be surprised if she becomes a sex vending machine after she’s served her story purpose like Teresa does).

ruhk wrote:

The noblewoman in Talmberg barely has any dialogue and basically only exists as a puzzle solution (though considering how weird your first encounter with her is, I wouldn’t be surprised if she becomes a sex vending machine after she’s served her story purpose like Teresa does).

She does, only with even less romance. You get some things for her and she offers sex as a reward, if you wear her fathers shirt.

TrashiDawa wrote:

Even with the fumbled follow-through after they have sex, is it really unbelievable that two young people who were already attracted to each other hooked up after sharing an extremely traumatic experience?

In the interests of historical accuracy, I'm not sure I would instantly agree considering the poor contraception, poor healthcare if a pregnancy occurs, and the ever-present fear of god :P. Occam's Razor would suggest that it's just another video game trope in a very tropey game. To be fair, I'm sure I read somewhere that Vávra had bigger plans for romance options, but ran out of time. Like I've said previously, I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt there, but it's hard with his track record.

ChipRMonk wrote:

I'm pretty sure the game, unrealistic as it likely is, understates the barbarity and squalor of the times. They were called the Dark Ages for a reason.

This is probably pedantry, but the Dark Ages ended a good 400 years or so before the events shown in Kingdom Come. Petrarch, the guy who came up with the term 'Dark Ages', died before Henry would have even been born. Historians rarely use the term at all anymore. One of the reasons for this is the misrepresentation that the term implies to the public.

ruhk wrote:

she only exists as a plot point for the player.

Sounds like they nailed realism, then. Actually, how is that not the purpose of every NPC in every game?

I think it is a misnomer to call KC:D a "realistic representation of the time". But to keep things in context, the game only spans a very small area. Specifically there is only one city and then a bunch of local villages. It would be entirely possible that there were no PoC in that small an area.

Does that make their decision to not include other races/cultures right? I would say no, given the designer's public comments. It is my belief that the designer is using history as an excuse to push his world view into his game.

I would not have supported the game had I known what a sh*theel the designer was. But since I bought it, I played it and found myself enjoying the game (bugs and all) far more than I thought I would. I'm now of two minds about future support but I'll deal with that later on down the line.

Jeez with all this buzz about "historically accurate", I wonder if the devs have ever said the game is going to be a "realistic representation of the time" about f*cking EVERYTHING. I remember reading about "historic" weaponry, armor, clothing, architecture but it's silly to expect a 100% perfect depiction of medieval world from a small development team with a very restrictive budget. Not to mention that whatever is "perfect" is different for everyone.

I am watching this ridiculous witch hunt and I am disgusted.

Hedinn wrote:

Jeez with all this buzz about "historically accurate", I wonder if the devs have ever said the game is going to be a "realistic representation of the time" about f*cking EVERYTHING. I remember reading about "historic" weaponry, armor, clothing, architecture but it's silly to expect a 100% perfect depiction of medieval world from a small development team with a very restrictive budget. Not to mention that whatever is "perfect" is different for everyone.

I am watching this ridiculous witch hunt and I am disgusted.

In all honestly all of the societal-based criticism is earned by the designer own public statements. If he had kept his views to himself, there would be no additional context in which to view the game. But he didn't so his white-washed, male-oriented world view in the game now are seen to reinforce his beliefs.

Hedinn wrote:

Jeez with all this buzz about "historically accurate", I wonder if the devs have ever said the game is going to be a "realistic representation of the time" about f*cking EVERYTHING. I remember reading about "historic" weaponry, armor, clothing, architecture but it's silly to expect a 100% perfect depiction of medieval world from a small development team with a very restrictive budget. Not to mention that whatever is "perfect" is different for everyone.

I am watching this ridiculous witch hunt and I am disgusted.

Wow.. Witch Hunt seems to be right out of the Gator playbook of "we are the real victims here!".. I look forward to your next post proclaiming "SJW's are the real problem!!"

The Designer is a real creep and prototypical Gamer Gator. If you didnt think that would led to criticism (and rightfully so) then I have no words for you.

Would it be too much to ask for a topic in D&D so those that couldn’t care less about the politics and just want to talk about the game can do so? This seems like a very important topic that people are interested in and want to discuss, but my thought is that it’s not really warranted here. Just my opinion of course, maybe I’m way off the mark.

Nevin73 wrote:

This may be the first game to treat maces/warhammers well. They feel really good. Now I would love to see a mod where someone adds in Robert Baratheon's warhammer.

When I would train with the wooden weapons I'd have my guy strip down and just fight for hours with the swords and axes. When we broke out the club, though, I was down and gravely wounded in seconds. I mean, it makes sense because it's hard to make a "safe" wooden training club cause... well... it's still a club. Do I just have to get fully suited up and bang the crap out of my armor to train with those or would I be better just building up those skills in regular lethal encounters?

TheGameguru wrote:
Hedinn wrote:

Jeez with all this buzz about "historically accurate", I wonder if the devs have ever said the game is going to be a "realistic representation of the time" about f*cking EVERYTHING. I remember reading about "historic" weaponry, armor, clothing, architecture but it's silly to expect a 100% perfect depiction of medieval world from a small development team with a very restrictive budget. Not to mention that whatever is "perfect" is different for everyone.

I am watching this ridiculous witch hunt and I am disgusted.

Wow.. Witch Hunt seems to be right out of the Gator playbook of "we are the real victims here!".. I look forward to your next post proclaiming "SJW's are the real problem!!"

The Designer is a real creep and prototypical Gamer Gator. If you didnt think that would led to criticism (and rightfully so) then I have no words for you.

Would you please stop talking to me in this tone? I haven't done anything wrong to you and don't even know what SJW means.

I am talking about the game, you are talking about some Gators. You need to stop quoting me in your posts like if anything I am saying has anything to do with what you are saying.

Hedinn wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:
Hedinn wrote:

Jeez with all this buzz about "historically accurate", I wonder if the devs have ever said the game is going to be a "realistic representation of the time" about f*cking EVERYTHING. I remember reading about "historic" weaponry, armor, clothing, architecture but it's silly to expect a 100% perfect depiction of medieval world from a small development team with a very restrictive budget. Not to mention that whatever is "perfect" is different for everyone.

I am watching this ridiculous witch hunt and I am disgusted.

Wow.. Witch Hunt seems to be right out of the Gator playbook of "we are the real victims here!".. I look forward to your next post proclaiming "SJW's are the real problem!!"

The Designer is a real creep and prototypical Gamer Gator. If you didnt think that would led to criticism (and rightfully so) then I have no words for you.

Would you please stop talking to me in this tone? I haven't done anything wrong to you and don't even know what SJW means.

I am talking about the game, you are talking about some Gators. You need to stop quoting me in your posts like if anything I am saying has anything to do with what you are saying.

They are all like this here. Used to be a better site, too, years ago. I suppose it's a sign of our times.

Kehama wrote:
Nevin73 wrote:

This may be the first game to treat maces/warhammers well. They feel really good. Now I would love to see a mod where someone adds in Robert Baratheon's warhammer.

When I would train with the wooden weapons I'd have my guy strip down and just fight for hours with the swords and axes. When we broke out the club, though, I was down and gravely wounded in seconds. I mean, it makes sense because it's hard to make a "safe" wooden training club cause... well... it's still a club. Do I just have to get fully suited up and bang the crap out of my armor to train with those or would I be better just building up those skills in regular lethal encounters?

IMO, the damage value on their wooden club is bugged and is too high. I also found it to be frustrating to practice with clubs. IIRC It gets a bit easier once your clubs skill (and other combat skills) gets to 9+. I wouldn't recommend using your armor unless you have so much money you don't care about repair bills because your armor will get damaged a lot.

When you train, strip out of your armor, the training will damage it.

After training, just ask for instruction in something else (like Master Strokes) and your health meter will restore.

Nevin73 wrote:

In all honestly all of the societal-based criticism is earned by the designer own public statements. If he had kept his views to himself, there would be no additional context in which to view the game. But he didn't so his white-washed, male-oriented world view in the game now are seen to reinforce his beliefs.

This is an interesting point that mirrors thoughts I'd concluded about the game some time ago.

The quest for Historical Accuracy is admirable and quite frankly something I find quite refreshing in a medium so obsessed with fantastical archetypes.

If the dev had come forth and said, "Well there weren't really PoC in Bohemia in that period, so we're trying to adhere to historical accuracy.", I'd likely nod my head and just move on.

But here's the rub. In order for that to work convincingly, the dev's foisting this reasoning have to come from a place of intellectual honesty & integrity. If they had some kind of background in history or similar academia I'd have a much easier time believing their mission-statement and trusting their intentions. I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with wanting to populate a historic period with authentic historical demographics.

But alas this is all blown to the wind by the lead dev / studio co-founder's abhorrent presence on social media. It casts any assertions of "historical accuracy" into doubt and quite frankly does the whole studio a disservice in ascertaining their authenticity.

I've no interest in getting into the morality of supporting these guys. That's a decision everyone needs to make on their own and I'm not here to judge either way. But it is food for thought for me and certainly influences my personal attraction to the game (that admittedly looks right in my wheelhouse otherwise).

ChipRMonk wrote:
Hedinn wrote:
TheGameguru wrote:
Hedinn wrote:

Jeez with all this buzz about "historically accurate", I wonder if the devs have ever said the game is going to be a "realistic representation of the time" about f*cking EVERYTHING. I remember reading about "historic" weaponry, armor, clothing, architecture but it's silly to expect a 100% perfect depiction of medieval world from a small development team with a very restrictive budget. Not to mention that whatever is "perfect" is different for everyone.

I am watching this ridiculous witch hunt and I am disgusted.

Wow.. Witch Hunt seems to be right out of the Gator playbook of "we are the real victims here!".. I look forward to your next post proclaiming "SJW's are the real problem!!"

The Designer is a real creep and prototypical Gamer Gator. If you didnt think that would led to criticism (and rightfully so) then I have no words for you.

Would you please stop talking to me in this tone? I haven't done anything wrong to you and don't even know what SJW means.

I am talking about the game, you are talking about some Gators. You need to stop quoting me in your posts like if anything I am saying has anything to do with what you are saying.

They are all like this here. Used to be a better site, too, years ago. I suppose it's a sign of our times.

Well given that I've been here since the beginning and I the best I can figure is your good for some borderline gator sh*t and/or stereotyping (your comment on Chinese gamers in the business thread) I'm shocked you have lasted this long here.

IMAGE(https://media.giphy.com/media/11QJgcchgwskq4/giphy.gif)

MOD

There are so many issues with this thread, I don't even know where to begin.

Let's see:
- Name calling: check
- Harkening back to the good old days, before the libruls ruined the site: check
- Continued (real or feigned) ignorance instead of learning about the topic at hand: check

This is coming from people who should know better.

to give benefit of the doubt, here's some info on Gamer Gate (its proponents are called Gators), and SJWs.

Let's move on.

EDIT: checks subforum. *does a double take* If you all insist on discussing GamerGate and racial representation in games in good faith, please take it to Discussion and Debates.