[Q&A] How to approach Gender neutral questions without offending?

Hopefully this is a safe place for those of us that don't really understand the terms of non-binary, gender fluid or neutral to ask questions.

At the risk of perhaps putting myself in the uncomfortable position of being labeled ignorant , rude, or ultra conservative (I consider myself liberal lol) I do have questions and hope this is a place to ask.

I am a bit older (36) and in the last few years as someone who pays attention to video games this topic seems to come up a lot (in fact an rps article was just posted). I also have a teenaged cousin who identifys herself as gender fluid. I guess I just don't really understand any of it but don't know how to learn more.

I've always been taught humans have two genders male/female. And I can easily understand LGB sexual preferences, I can even understand Trans as someone associating themselves as the opposite sex. I really don't understand not prescribing to either gender though and don't understand why this is an issue.

If I have a son that feels comfortable with more female things and the opposite sex, I still consider him a male unless he changes his biological make up with drugs/surgery. At that point I would have no problem calling him her. I can understand not prescribing to societal norms but on a biological level you are still one of two genders no?

I am really trying to not come off as offensive and am honestly very curious about this. It seems society is embracing the idea more and more and I don't want to be offensive to people. There has been talk about calling people "them or they" instead of "he" or "she". And it's considered rude to identify someone's gender? I unfortunately don't understand this at all, and because of this maybe am resistant to the idea? I've always associated gender as nothing more then biological, I don't expect my daughter to like pink or wear dresses she is more then welcome to like and associate, love with whatever gender she wants. So I don't understand why this needs representation?

Rave wrote:

So I don't understand why this needs representation?

I'm probably not the best to answer the rest of your questions, but I'll go so far as to answer this one. Your entire post is the reason why non-binary, genderqueer, transgender folks, etc. need representation. You are confused because you've not been exposed to these issues and questions. Thankfully you have curiosity and empathy, so you're at least trying to figure it out. If there were more representation for people who fall outside of stereotypical gender norms, you'd have a greater basis from which to understand this part of the collective human experience.

And people for whom their whole lives are impacted by this question? They wouldn't run into people like you all day, every day. Having someone question the validity of your identity, your existence, is tiring even if they are well-meaning. Representation would go a long way toward getting everyone not directly involved in QUILTBAG activities a baseline understanding of what the issues are and that people really exist while dealing with social norms and identities this way.

Well, I am not a biologist, but from what I have read here and there, even biologically gender does not always have to be binary, due to various genetic thingummies.
Most likely here are many more qualified peeps who can dive into the biologic part of of the question.

Personally I am firmly in the "dont care and dont see whats all the fuss is about" camp. I will call you whatever you like, just make it clear to me firsthand. And if I get it wrong the first time, dont go all snotty and ballistic on me, just correct me, I will get it right next time.

I'm in the don't care group as well, my issues come from people taking possible offense to me gender identifying them on first meeting. Or calling them by their biological gender in casual conversation (e.g.. "He went to the store, I saw her at the mall" instead of "they went to the store, I saw them at the mall").

Gender just seems like a very binary thing to me, you are born with male/female reproductive organs or possibly both if you are a hermaphrodite. For our species those are the areas as far as I know. In that rare case of hermaphroditism I guess you could identify as both or gender select to which one you prefer.

My cousin says some day she feels female, some days she identifys more as male. On the days she is male she asks to be called by a male name as well. It just seems unnecessarily confusing. And that's what I don't understand.

Does a gender fluid person who is athletic get to choose if they compete against males or females? Which public restrooms do they use? Or change rooms at the gym?

When did how you feel on a day to day basis need identification? I don't hunt, enjoy sports, or do many other male oriented activities but that's not what defines my gender it's just something I don't like.

There are days I'm unhappy with my greying beard or slower metabolism, but I can't just identify myself as 20 and have it be so. It's my biological make up.

Again I can't reiterate enough that I'm sensitive to peoples issues. And if someone I know wants me to call them a male or female or not refer to them as a sex I will do my best to accommodate. I honestly feel I am a pretty good hearted person, and try my best to be empathetic. I'm maybe just getting old and crusty but there is something that still irks me a bit when I think about those questions and how muddled and confusing it seems to make things.

**I was going to edit my out my use of hermaphrodite after reading it is possibly offensive or outdated terminology. I feel that it would be disingenuous and really this shows how little I know about this topic.

If you thinks it's confusing and difficult for you, imagine being the person who is constantly being misidentified, made fun of, attacked, etc.

Gender just seems like a very binary thing to me, you are born with male/female reproductive organs or possibly both if you are a hermaphrodite. For our species those are the areas as far as I know. In that rare case of hermaphroditism I guess you could identify as both or gender select to which one you prefer.

I can tell you it isn't that cut and dry, especially when it comes to intersex. Many times your parents or a doctor determine which sex you're to be assigned, they don't wait until you mature and can pick.

I think a basic look at Wikipedia will give you some more perspective: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inte...

sorry double posted when editing... will make a new post here in a moment.

Rave wrote:

I know alot of the washroom and change room stuff is just fear mongering for people unwilling to admit there is a good argument for people to want a third gender, but as a parent how do you explain or warn your child against strange predatory behaviour while still being non-discrimatory?

I feel comfortable enough with this discussion to answer this one. You teach about behavior, not appearance.

Have you read these threads yet? I feel like I've grown a lot by reading them. A lot of what you are asking has been discussed at length and you might learn a lot from previous discussions. I don't want to step on any toes, but I feel like these threads are a must read for anyone interested in the topic, which I hope is everyone.

SillyRabbit wrote:
Rave wrote:

I know alot of the washroom and change room stuff is just fear mongering for people unwilling to admit there is a good argument for people to want a third gender, but as a parent how do you explain or warn your child against strange predatory behaviour while still being non-discrimatory?

I feel comfortable enough with this discussion to answer this one. You teach about behavior, not appearance.

Have you read these threads yet? I feel like I've grown a lot by reading them. A lot of what you are asking has been discussed at length and you might learn a lot from previous discussions. I don't want to step on any toes, but I feel like these threads are a must read for anyone interested in the topic, which I hope is everyone.

Ill take a look through that thread for sure, and maybe stop this discussion here. I totally understand the argument of behavior vs appearance. Unfortunately in an actual high risk situation I can judge based on appearance much faster then I can by watching someones behaviour. If my daughter walks into a rest room it is an easier flag to raise that this person might be suspicious if they appear on the surface to be a man you should exit, before she watches to see what that person is doing or how they are acting. Or maybe another example is if my daughter sees a strange dog in the park I wouldn't let her run up and pet it, I wouldnt wait to see how its behaving.

I don't think either of those are effective methods of judging risk. I would teach my children not to talk to strangers without me present and not to run up to any dogs they don't know, ever, whether I'm there or not. If a strange person or dog approach you, that's when to take whatever action you have deemed appropriate. You simply cannot tell who is a danger to you by what they look like. That goes for people and dogs alike.

Edit: I'm probably over my head already in this discussion, and I'm going to bow out before I get further into territory that I'm still learning to understand and am just not that great at explaining. I do urge you to read both of the threads I linked. I also want to add to my previous statement, that yes, if a man, dressed as a man is in the women's restroom, that's problematic. That's exactly why it is so important to let people use the restroom of the gender that they identify and present. At the very scariest you might see a slightly masculine woman in the women's restroom or a slightly effeminate man in the men's restroom. Nothing scary about that.

SillyRabbit wrote:

I don't think either of those are effective methods of judging risk. I would teach my children not to talk to strangers without me present and not to run up to any dogs they don't know, ever, whether I'm there or not. If a strange person or dog approach you, that's when to take whatever action you have deemed appropriate. You simply cannot tell who is a danger to you by what they look like. That goes for people and dogs alike.

I think its a bit disingenuous to say you cant tell who is a danger by what they look like. It may not be 100% accurate but its a great first step in self preservation. If I take my daughter to a movie or park and send her inside a washroom while I am outside, if there is someone that looks like a man inside I am always going to get her to come out and tell me or if need be yell for help. She's a child and her self preservation instinct isnt that refined yet. I am not considering that persons feeling, and if its innocent and that person is offended I will happily apologize after the fact. I wont get into an argument about who's risk assessment abilities are better. I think my dog example was taken a bit to literal. Hopefully that better explains my position.

Ill stop asking questions though and read those threads. Thanks all for your patience with me, sorry again if Ive offended. This can be locked if it causes issues.

**edit SillyRabbit read your edit after I posted, seems like we are both in agreement and both over our heads lol. Ill try to educate myself a bit more.

**edit 2

That's exactly why it is so important to let people use the restroom of the gender that they identify and present. At the very scariest you might see a slightly masculine woman in the women's restroom or a slightly effeminate man in the men's restroom. Nothing scary about that.

Sorry just my final post this really gets to the meat of what this topic for me was about. I am totally 100% fine with trans people that identify with a gender, my question was about these gender fluid (like my cousin) that seem to only associate with gender based on their current mood. Some days a man some days a woman, that is what I was questioning. Maybe those topics will help (although they seem to be more trans focused)

Quick tip: Comparing people to dogs is not cool. Telling your daughter to treat people like she would treat dogs (strange dogs at that) is not cool. I trust you weren't intending that metaphor, but it came out pretty clearly.

I encourage you to read through the linked threads and consider the ramifications of any other metaphors you might choose. Likening a trans individual using the bathroom to a strange dog in the park is pretty offensive and plays directly into the (wrong) cultural idea that trans individuals are sick perverts.

I reread my own post and came to say that when I said strange person, I meant someone you don't know, as in, a stranger.

Jolly Bill wrote:

Quick tip: Comparing people to dogs is not cool. Telling your daughter to treat people like she would treat dogs (strange dogs at that) is not cool. I trust you weren't intending that metaphor, but it came out pretty clearly.

I don't need your quick tip. If you think my metaphor was comparing the dog to a person, that's on you not me. I was obviously using it as an example of another possible dangerous situation. Also don't appreciate the insinuation that I teach my daughter to treat people like dogs. I approached this thread trying to be as respectful as possible. I also said I was done with the discussion and was going to further educate myself with the linked threads and wiki. I can't let your comment just slide without defending myself a bit as I feel your snark was completely unjustified.

It's those types of comments or snap judgements to think the worst of people that shut down discussions like this. Over sensitivity or reading into insults that don't exist was actually the reason I was hesitant about trying to start an honest discussion.

Sillyrabbit no need to clarify your meaning I read it as strangers and in your intended context the first time.

MOD NOTE:

putting the words "safe space" in the scope, then claiming "over sensitivity" is a bit disingenuous. Please tread carefully.

Rave wrote:
Jolly Bill wrote:

Quick tip: Comparing people to dogs is not cool. Telling your daughter to treat people like she would treat dogs (strange dogs at that) is not cool. I trust you weren't intending that metaphor, but it came out pretty clearly.

I don't need your quick tip. If you think my metaphor was comparing the dog to a person, that's on you not me. I was obviously using it as an example of another possible dangerous situation. Also don't appreciate the insinuation that I teach my daughter to treat people like dogs. I approached this thread trying to be as respectful as possible. I also said I was done with the discussion and was going to further educate myself with the linked threads and wiki. I can't let your comment just slide without defending myself a bit as I feel your snark was completely unjustified.

It's those types of comments or snap judgements to think the worst of people that shut down discussions like this. Over sensitivity or reading into insults that don't exist was actually the reason I was hesitant about trying to start an honest discussion.

Sillyrabbit no need to clarify your meaning I read it as strangers and in your intended context the first time.

My dude, I'd suggest you reread this post and Jolly's, because he's not the one who's coming across as oversensitive. If two people read your comment a certain way, it's not actually immediately obvious what you meant, despite what you might think.

You've used quite a bit of language that would raise questions about your intentions, but people are taking your claim of wanting education at face value, so it's my hope that you'll return to this thread after reading the others to examine what you've written.

I'll add the OG to the list, too: https://www.gamerswithjobs.com/node/... - It's *long*, and sometimes hard to read, but it's been instrumental in my understanding of gender and the people who are most affected by the default binary.

sometimesdee wrote:

MOD NOTE:

putting the words "safe space" in the scope, then claiming "over sensitivity" is a bit disingenuous. Please tread carefully.

Noted. I regret starting the thread and hope this topic will be locked (which I mentioned locking in one of my posts). I'll stick to the game discussion topics in the future. Thanks all, I apologize to everyone I've offended.

I'd like to apologize as well. I recognize now that there was a great deal more snark coming off my post than intended.

I did actually mean that as advice. Even unintentionally, those comparisons are very charged and to be avoided. And despite the best of hearts behind it, it is dehumanizing. That's true even outside of this context: if we were taking about race or culture or wealth, it's still never a good idea.

I'll stay away as well. Sorry again.