[News] Trump, Russia, and the 2016 Election

All news related to Donald Trump's alleged ties to Russia and to the Russian interference in the 2016 Presidential election. New details should be cited to reputable sources.

Nothing is an impeachable offense if Congress won't impeach. Simple as that.

Impeachment is a political act, and congress should be reluctant. Requiring 2/3 of the Senate is meant to be a difficult bar to overcome.

In order to clear that bar, the House must make its case to the public. Barr and Trump understood this, which is why, even though he was exposed for lying about the report, Barr exploited his ability to frame the narrative for weeks before anyone saw the report. That is the challenge. It's not fair, but it is the current reality.

What the Dems need, and I assume they have, is a plan to use the hearings to make that case, one witness at a time. Then they can use that testimony to make their case to the press. What we need is for the press to pressure Republicans to go on record as supporting or condemning the various actions of the president, over and over an over.

Impeachment was always a long process. It was always going to be ugly, and never a cake walk. But this is still how I envisioned it playing out for the most part. Every step closer to legal jeopardy, whether by impeachment or indictment after Trump leaves office brings him one step closer to resignation. He won't resign out of shame. He may to protect his own hide.

That's the debate we have not gotten to, and I wonder if we will. If Trump offered to resign today, would you let him take a pardon for everything? Those seem to be the negotiations that happen out of view, and come down before we even realize it was on the table.

There is an insane episode of Maddow's Bag Man, in which the lawyers for Spiro Agnew and the Justice Department are trying to negotiate his resignation, but needed to do so out of the public eye. It was in a motel room, with the lawyers sitting on each bed facing each other, and the judge at the end of the beds between them. When the lawyers wanted to talk privately, they had to go into the bathroom. If they needed to confer by phone, they had the room next door, where the judge was stying with his wife, forth to have private place to speak on the phone.

Does resignation offer us anything? Can it be used to force Trump to admit something that will settle down his base? Will Pence be expected to pardon Trump regardless? Will Pence refuse to pardon Trump?

What was with the Nixon administration and motels/hotels, anyway?

thrawn82 wrote:
firesloth wrote:

I wonder if defying subpoenas is an impeachable offense?

It was one of the counts on Nixon's impeachment, so it was in the 70s, but it just rounds back to the same problem: "High crimes and misdemeanors" is defined as whatever congress deems to be a high crime or misdemeanor, it's not laid out in statute or precedent so..

Yup. Article 3 of Nixon's impeachment:

Article 3 wrote:

In his conduct of the office of President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, contrary to his oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has failed without lawful cause or excuse to produce papers and things as directed by duly authorized subpoenas issued by the Committee on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives on April 11, 1974, May 15, 1974, May 30, 1974, and June 24, 1974, and willfully disobeyed such subpoenas. The subpoenaed papers and things were deemed necessary by the Committee in order to resolve by direct evidence fundamental, factual questions relating to Presidential direction, knowledge or approval of actions demonstrated by other evidence to be substantial grounds for impeachment of the President. In refusing to produce these papers and things Richard M. Nixon, substituting his judgment as to what materials were necessary for the inquiry, interposed the powers of the Presidency against the the lawful subpoenas of the House of Representatives, thereby assuming to himself functions and judgments necessary to the exercise of the sole power of impeachment vested by the Constitution in the House of Representatives.

In all of this, Richard M. Nixon has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice, and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

Wherefore, Richard M. Nixon, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial, and removal from office.

Even if Republicans were on board with impeachment (they’re not) this process would be slow walked via obstruction and I doubt anything would happen by the time elections come about. That’s one of the major arguments for not pursuing impeachment. I want this jerk out ASAP but I’m afraid this isn’t going to do it.

Getting him out does not have to be the only goal of impeachment. You can impeach, and then force Republicans to vote, publicly, to give Trump a pass.

After a month, or several months, of a stream of witnesses telling the story of Trump’s crimes and abuses, maybe it will be harder, it might be harder to look the public in the eye.

Mueller found a pattern of obstruction and abuse of power, he spelled out in the report how the crimes met the standard, and he explained how a president can be held responsible.

If we don’t move forward, what was the point of an investigation that has tore the country apart for two years?

My concern is that impeachment proceedings will only serve to stoke the adoration of his base and strengthen his hold on the Republican party. While impeachment is absolutely the right thing to do, I don't think it will have the impact that we wish it would have. The multitude of investigations that are going on right now into his finances and behaviors (Deutsche Bank is handing over files related to his loans) are going to have a greater impact than impeachment proceedings.

Everyone knows this guy is a colossal asshole. Sadly only one side of the aisle seems to want to do anything about it. The Republicans seem to have brainwashed their people so completely that they are incapable of rational thought anymore.

Jayhawker wrote:

If we don’t move forward, what was the point of an investigation that has tore the country apart for two years?

a) To give Hillary an excuse for losing.
b) To drive media revenues.

The Russia investigation is hardly the only thing tearing this country apart. In fact, I'd say it's a symptom of underlying issues.

JC wrote:

Everyone knows this guy is a colossal asshole. Sadly only one side of the aisle seems to want to do anything about it. The Republicans seem to have brainwashed their people so completely that they are incapable of rational thought anymore.

Since I called out Harpo for his unfair characterizing in another thread I figure I should echo that sentiment here:

It's unfair to paint all Republicans as being brainwashed. So far Trump is doing a lot of the things that Republicans like and if that means putting up with a guy who is close to breaking the law, but that his politically educated advisers and administration won't actually follow through on, then they're fine with leaving Trump in office.

Nothing in the Mueller report is going to make most Republicans jump on the impeachment train. It's clear that some are on that train, mind you. Others were on the train before he got elected, then jumped back on the "hey, we can cut taxes for rich, which means me" train. Etc.

I want the guy out, but 2020 seems the only way its gonna happen anytime soon. Impeachment proceedings aren't likely to happen, so maybe let that dream die until it actually comes to pass. The Dems will have people testify and use that to, hopefully, bring Trump's numbers down even more.

If the choice is between a buffoon who acts like a bull in a china shop while President or a Democrat, most people on the right continue to choose the buffoon. The same is true of the left in that we were close to electing Hillary Clinton and a lot of people dislike her and don't think she would've been a particularly great President, myself included. But I sure as sh*t would've taken her over Trump.

The fact is that since Trump wasn't caught conspiring with Russia, which is exactly what the report says, means the right mostly believe he's still fit for office since he won. That's it. End of story. People on the right just aren't going to give up on Trump because he unsuccessfully tried to stop an investigation that ended up going nowhere.

Plus the racism and taking care of the wealthy..which is biz as usual for Republicans since well..forever.

TheGameguru wrote:

Plus the racism and taking care of the wealthy..which is biz as usual for Republicans conservatives since well..forever.

With a minor change you can push the timeline back past the 60s and the southern strategy.

Barking, feel free to call me out too then, but gross generalizations are exactly what the Republicans are. There is no long any real coded language. They’ve moved far beyond that. There has been a norminalization of the whole US vs. Them mentality that they’ve fostered through 2nd amendment, abortion, and immigration. Thouse things don’t matter anymore. It truly is just US vs. Them mentality that prevails.

And the Republican that don’t fall in line are sneered at as Rinos by this racist, degenerate, worthless piece of sh*t base. This isn’t a political party anymore. This is a mafia he’s running. And those republicans that follow this caricature they’ve created are monsters and obstructionist, fascist pieces of steaming sh*t that deserved to be shoveled on a compost heap for the future. F*ck them all. Because the way that party is built, you’re either with or against. There is no dissent. There is no compromise. There is only our way. That’s bullsh*t and it’s anti-progressive and anti-democratic.

garion333 wrote:

People on the right just aren't going to give up on Trump because he unsuccessfully tried to stop an investigation that ended up going nowhere.

What? WHAT?

You are reciting Republican propaganda. The Muller probe resulted in 199 criminal charges, 37 indictments or guilty pleas, and 5 prison sentences. (Common Cause)

That's hardly nowhere.

Not only that, but it presents a wealth of evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia to successfully influence the presidential election, and it presents a wealth of evidence of obstruction of justice by Trump and his lackeys. Just because Muller didn't indict Trump doesn't mean there is nothing there.

I wonder what people who don't really follow this think.

By that I mean those "independents" who ignore politics.

BadKen wrote:
garion333 wrote:

People on the right just aren't going to give up on Trump because he unsuccessfully tried to stop an investigation that ended up going nowhere.

What? WHAT?

You are reciting Republican propaganda. The Muller probe resulted in 199 criminal charges, 37 indictments or guilty pleas, and 5 prison sentences. (Common Cause)

That's hardly nowhere.

Not only that, but it presents a wealth of evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia to successfully influence the presidential election, and it presents a wealth of evidence of obstruction of justice by Trump and his lackeys. Just because Muller didn't indict Trump doesn't mean there is nothing there.

I'm not reciting Republican propoganda, I'm talking about how they view the whole thing.

Until Trump is indicited on something, the right will continue to claim "no collusion" and that Mueller was a waste of time and money.

I mean, Vox just wrote a summary of all the horrible things Trump did and it's...not so horrible that a Republican will now vote for a Democrat. That's my point. Mueller's report is not changing minds across America.

garion333 wrote:

I'm not reciting Republican propoganda, I'm talking about how they view the whole thing.

Until Trump is indicited on something, the right will continue to claim "no collusion" and that Mueller was a waste of time and money.

I mean, Vox just wrote a summary of all the horrible things Trump did and it's...not so horrible that a Republican will now vote for a Democrat. That's my point. Mueller's report is not changing minds across America.

Seriously trumpists would claim "no collusion" even if there was an indictment.

They really don't care.

garion333 wrote:
BadKen wrote:
garion333 wrote:

People on the right just aren't going to give up on Trump because he unsuccessfully tried to stop an investigation that ended up going nowhere.

What? WHAT?

You are reciting Republican propaganda. The Muller probe resulted in 199 criminal charges, 37 indictments or guilty pleas, and 5 prison sentences. (Common Cause)

That's hardly nowhere.

Not only that, but it presents a wealth of evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia to successfully influence the presidential election, and it presents a wealth of evidence of obstruction of justice by Trump and his lackeys. Just because Muller didn't indict Trump doesn't mean there is nothing there.

I'm not reciting Republican propoganda, I'm talking about how they view the whole thing.

Until Trump is indicited on something, the right will continue to claim "no collusion" and that Mueller was a waste of time and money.

I mean, Vox just wrote a summary of all the horrible things Trump did and it's...not so horrible that a Republican will now vote for a Democrat. That's my point. Mueller's report is not changing minds across America.

That article seems to only cover Volume I.

And the storylines from this week should be a call for impeachment, if you actually read Volumes I. After the Russians interfered in the election in a massive way, Trump has prevented the country from addressing our vulnerabilities, and bolton shut down the cyber unit for Homeland security.

That is also going to be a part of the impeachment hearings.

farley3k wrote:
garion333 wrote:

I'm not reciting Republican propoganda, I'm talking about how they view the whole thing.

Until Trump is indicited on something, the right will continue to claim "no collusion" and that Mueller was a waste of time and money.

I mean, Vox just wrote a summary of all the horrible things Trump did and it's...not so horrible that a Republican will now vote for a Democrat. That's my point. Mueller's report is not changing minds across America.

Seriously trumpists would claim "no collusion" even if there was an indictment.

They really don't care.

Sure, but that part of his base is, if I recall correctly, about 20%??

Jayhawker wrote:
garion333 wrote:
BadKen wrote:
garion333 wrote:

People on the right just aren't going to give up on Trump because he unsuccessfully tried to stop an investigation that ended up going nowhere.

What? WHAT?

You are reciting Republican propaganda. The Muller probe resulted in 199 criminal charges, 37 indictments or guilty pleas, and 5 prison sentences. (Common Cause)

That's hardly nowhere.

Not only that, but it presents a wealth of evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia to successfully influence the presidential election, and it presents a wealth of evidence of obstruction of justice by Trump and his lackeys. Just because Muller didn't indict Trump doesn't mean there is nothing there.

I'm not reciting Republican propoganda, I'm talking about how they view the whole thing.

Until Trump is indicited on something, the right will continue to claim "no collusion" and that Mueller was a waste of time and money.

I mean, Vox just wrote a summary of all the horrible things Trump did and it's...not so horrible that a Republican will now vote for a Democrat. That's my point. Mueller's report is not changing minds across America.

That article seems to only cover Volume I.

Good point, doesn't cover obstruction.

garion333 wrote:
farley3k wrote:
garion333 wrote:

I'm not reciting Republican propoganda, I'm talking about how they view the whole thing.

Until Trump is indicited on something, the right will continue to claim "no collusion" and that Mueller was a waste of time and money.

I mean, Vox just wrote a summary of all the horrible things Trump did and it's...not so horrible that a Republican will now vote for a Democrat. That's my point. Mueller's report is not changing minds across America.

Seriously trumpists would claim "no collusion" even if there was an indictment.

They really don't care.

Sure, but that part of his base is, if I recall correctly, about 20%??

F* ck his base. They’re free to not vaccinate their children, die in an orgy of school shootings, overdoses, and heart disease for all I care. His base is literally holding the rest of the world hostage with smoke and mirrors everyone else can agree they’re fu*king awful individuals but we can’t agree on the language in the contract.

Garion is right here that the perception is that Mueller's report didn't lead to anything. Trump and the Republicans were very good at framing the debate around the report's conclusions prior to and after its release. No criminal indictment for Trump means that for many people who don't follow this story daily, the Mueller report cleared him.

That is why the hearings are going to be the next stage of this. They may not call them impeachment hearings, but they are happening.

The real wildcard right now, off all things, is what will Mueller say when he testifies? I think the country will largely follow his lead. And since most don't read, they will need his public testimony to overcome the Barr spin job.

But there is no guarantee that he is going to be the dramatic linch pin in Trump's demise. The fact is, he could have spoken up already, and he hasn't. In his report he states that publicly stating that the president has committed a crime would be inappropriate in a context in which the Trump would not have the ability to prove his innocent in court.

This may force the Dems to open official impeachment hearings for Mueller's testimony, as he would then be free to be more specific about the criminality of trumps actions in a process that would avail Trump the ability to defend himself. I suspect that is what is where Mueller stands right now, and why we do not have a confirmation of an appearance for him yet.

garion333 wrote:

I mean, Vox just wrote a summary of all the horrible things Trump did and it's...not so horrible that a Republican will now vote for a Democrat. That's my point. Mueller's report is not changing minds across America.

We don't need Republicans to switch and vote for a Democrat. We just need a portion of them to be either so over or disgusted with Trump that they stay at home on election day or at least don't vote for any presidential candidate. The Republican path to electoral victory relies on the absolute maximum turnout of white voters and anything that cuts into that turnout is *really* bad for them.

Eighteen months of additional impeachment-related and ongoing criminal investigations will turn off a number of moderate Republican voters (and Independents), especially because there's absolutely no chance that 1) the investigations aren't going to find more shady sh*t the Trump administration or Trump Organization did, and 2) Trump's going to be screaming loudly and throwing decidedly unpresidential tantrums about the investigations (along with some scattered, clumsy Bond-villainesque threats).

And God forbid if economy cools off or goes south. As I learned during my start-up days, cash covers a whole sh*tload of management sins. But when the money starts to dry up people suddenly become very concerned about quality of leadership they're getting.

BlackSheep wrote:

F* ck his base. They’re free to not vaccinate their children, die in an orgy of school shootings, overdoses, and heart disease for all I care. His base is literally holding the rest of the world hostage with smoke and mirrors everyone else can agree they’re fu*king awful individuals but we can’t agree on the language in the contract.

I see that as being unconcerned about a person playing with a lighter in a lifeboat we share. If they start a fire I sink too.

If his cult doesn't vaccinate - my grandbabies could get sick and die, my kids may die in a school shooting, etc.

I don't particularly care about saving them but they are an anchor pulling me down when they go.

OG_slinger wrote:
garion333 wrote:

I mean, Vox just wrote a summary of all the horrible things Trump did and it's...not so horrible that a Republican will now vote for a Democrat. That's my point. Mueller's report is not changing minds across America.

We don't need Republicans to switch and vote for a Democrat. We just need a portion of them to be either so over or disgusted with Trump that they stay at home on election day or at least don't vote for any presidential candidate. The Republican path to electoral victory relies on the absolute maximum turnout of white voters and anything that cuts into that turnout is *really* bad for them.

Eighteen months of additional impeachment-related and ongoing criminal investigations will turn off a number of moderate Republican voters (and Independents), especially because there's absolutely no chance that 1) the investigations aren't going to find more shady sh*t the Trump administration or Trump Organization did, and 2) Trump's going to be screaming loudly and throwing decidedly unpresidential tantrums about the investigations (along with some scattered, clumsy Bond-villainesque threats).

And God forbid if economy cools off or goes south. As I learned during my start-up days, cash covers a whole sh*tload of management sins. But when the money starts to dry up people suddenly become very concerned about quality of leadership they're getting.

Right, the fight isn't for 51% anymore, it's getting more of your people to turn out. I still think the crap Trump did was small potatoes to a lot of people who would otherwise vote for him and I'm worried the hearings will give good fuel to Trump, not just to the Dems.

Op-Ed, Washington Monthly: Congress Needs To Lock Up Non-Complying Witnesses

In what has alternatively been described as a run-out-the-clock or torch-it-all strategy, President Trump has decided not to allow current and former administration officials to testify or produce documents for congressional oversight inquiries. In particular, he is fighting to prevent former White House counsel Donald McGahn from complying with a subpoena. There is a lot of commentary available about what this means. Is Trump a wannabe tyrant? Is this a constitutional crisis? What can or should the Democrats do in response?

On that last point, I have a possible response, and it’s probably not what you think.

Hell yeah, they should. Contempt of Congress is a pretty serious offense.

If Dems push on hearings and further investigations (which they absolutely should), the point above is right that it'll be more about driving down GOP voter turnout. The question for me is how much those voters buy into the Fox News noise machine. No matter what the hearings and investigations turn up, Fox, Trump, and everyone who parrots them will continue denying that things are coming out, that the things that are coming out are actually lies, that the whole thing is partisan stunt by The Left and those people that you hate, and you can't trust anything they or the non-Fox media says anyway.

In a world where there's one reality, then a continual drumbeat of facts and testimony coming out could start to sway opinion. But we live in a world where there's reality, and there's Fox News Reality. Those two things are completely opposite, and there's data that says a worryingly large portion of the country only believes in what exists in Fox News Reality.

farley3k wrote:
BlackSheep wrote:

F* ck his base. They’re free to not vaccinate their children, die in an orgy of school shootings, overdoses, and heart disease for all I care. His base is literally holding the rest of the world hostage with smoke and mirrors everyone else can agree they’re fu*king awful individuals but we can’t agree on the language in the contract.

I see that as being unconcerned about a person playing with a lighter in a lifeboat we share. If they start a fire I sink too.

If his cult doesn't vaccinate - my grandbabies could get sick and die, my kids may die in a school shooting, etc.

I don't particularly care about saving them but they are an anchor pulling me down when they go.

Quite frankly, that’s just a poor analogy. And to be honest, if I extend that analogy, then you still have choices, so don’t act as if you don’t. You just choose not to is all. You can swim, you can dump that lighter wielding anchor in the water, you can let them play with it knowing that those thick rubber boats they use for life rafts now are not going to burn very well and it would take more caloric energy than a lighter could produce to actually cause harm. You could talk to them.

What I’m saying is if I’m in your lifeboat with you, I’m finished with trying all the things but dumping that guy overboard is really starting to look pretty enticing.

Alleged Russian agent Maria Butina sentenced to 18 months in prison on conspiracy charge

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/26/polit...