Middle-earth: Shadow of War - Catch All

Vector wrote:

The game costs $80 CAD. These is no world where they can justify a "tip" with that price.

I dunno. Blizzard seems to be doing fine with loot boxes in Overwatch at the same price point and I don't see many people boycotting that game. I recognize the rewards are just cosmetic but I think many view it as a way to fiancially reward the company for a good game.

Docjoe wrote:
Vector wrote:

The game costs $80 CAD. These is no world where they can justify a "tip" with that price.

I dunno. Blizzard seems to be doing fine with loot boxes in Overwatch at the same price point and I don't see many people boycotting that game. I recognize the rewards are just cosmetic but I think many view it as a way to fiancially reward the company for a good game.

That they are cosmetic rewards is a pretty big deal but these are such different games that the reasons behind the type of micro-transactions aren't comparable. I also don't like that Overwatch has micro-transactions but it's a $40 game new.

Vector wrote:
Docjoe wrote:
Vector wrote:

The game costs $80 CAD. These is no world where they can justify a "tip" with that price.

I dunno. Blizzard seems to be doing fine with loot boxes in Overwatch at the same price point and I don't see many people boycotting that game. I recognize the rewards are just cosmetic but I think many view it as a way to fiancially reward the company for a good game.

That they are cosmetic rewards is a pretty big deal but these are such different games that the reasons behind the type of micro-transactions aren't comparable. I also don't like that Overwatch has micro-transactions but it's a $40 game new.

Overwatch was $60 US at release on console but point taken. I think we are just going to disagree on whether micro transactions are in general a bad thing in a full retail price game. Assuming we agree they are acceptable in a F2P game.

Docjoe wrote:
Vector wrote:
Docjoe wrote:
Vector wrote:

The game costs $80 CAD. These is no world where they can justify a "tip" with that price.

I dunno. Blizzard seems to be doing fine with loot boxes in Overwatch at the same price point and I don't see many people boycotting that game. I recognize the rewards are just cosmetic but I think many view it as a way to fiancially reward the company for a good game.

That they are cosmetic rewards is a pretty big deal but these are such different games that the reasons behind the type of micro-transactions aren't comparable. I also don't like that Overwatch has micro-transactions but it's a $40 game new.

Overwatch was $60 US at release on console but point taken. I think we are just going to disagree on whether micro transactions are in general a bad thing in a full retail price game. Assuming we agree they are acceptable in a F2P game.

I'm down for that. I don't mind micro-transactions in Mass Effect just because it's for a side-portion of the game. No problem with Dota 2 and the ilk's micro transactions.

I think we have rehashed the argument that games are cheaper now than they were in the past despite rising budgets. It's tough to complain about the price of a new game when I paid $90 for a new Sega Genesis game.

Man, I thought the DLC discussion was put to bed 4 years ago.

Cost of production has sky rocketed while prices are stagnant. Pubs and Devs need to find ways to supplement cash flow. If attempts are too egregious and bad value, there will be consequences, if they are well done and and good value, there will be consequences.

WB has said that the content can be accessed through playing the game, if playing the game is too much of a drag to access the content then the game can't be that good. Which is a bigger problem.

I think there is a huge difference between DLC and what is happening here. These loot boxes are straight up gambling, they prey on people with addictive tendencies and minors. If we really believe this game is just being played be people of legal age we are being dishonest.

All games that include this garbage should explicitly say so on the box, it should also have some kind of regulation. This stuff goes way deeper then throwing the developers a "tip" it's been researched by the same people that know how to make people keep playing a slot machine. It's a pretty gross practice, whether this stuff is available without a purchase or not you can bet the game has been balanced to encourage it.

Like someone else said in the thread the reason you get a free box or can earn free boxes aren't a nice gesture, it's being used to show people how easy and cool the stuff is to get out of boxes.

I've always felt exactly the same way about games with "gambling" boxes. Publishers somehow get away with it because it's not technically gambling. It has become so mainstream that even Blizzard is doing it. Every year more games come out that use the mechanic. It is has become endemic in the mobile space.

I don't mind paying extra money for extras. For example, in the Assassin's Creed games, you can buy "accelerators" - maps that show all the discovery items on the map so you can collect everything. You can buy specific outfits, outfit colors, or even weapons, which is not a big deal in a single player game. As others in this topic have said, sometimes I like to "tip" the developer by purchasing digital extras, and sometimes it's just nice to be able to pay a few extra bucks to save a some time.

The irritating thing is when the only way to buy extras is to buy what are effectively raffle tickets. If there's an item you really want to have, you end up having to buy a lot of extra crap unless you are very lucky. The icing on the sh*t cake is that the whole thing is exploitative and needlessly seductive to unfortunate people with addictive personalities.

It may not be strictly illegal, but it is definitely more of a money grab. I don't mind publishers finding innovative ways to pay for development. Development gets more expensive all the time. For example, now UHD games are becoming mainstream, which means even more detail work than HD assets: higher resolution textures and models and better software to make them move appropriately. (As an aside, what comes after Ultra High Def... Ludicrous Definition?)

It's a hard problem, but I wish publishers whould try harder to find creative ways that don't involve psychological manipulation to fund their ever-increasing development budgets.

And... maybe this discussion deserves its own topic to avoid clogging discussion of the game. Although the perennial DLC discussions never end well.

Rave wrote:

I think there is a huge difference between DLC and what is happening here. These loot boxes are straight up gambling, they prey on people with addictive tendencies and minors. If we really believe this game is just being played be people of legal age we are being dishonest.

All games that include this garbage should explicitly say so on the box, it should also have some kind of regulation. This stuff goes way deeper then throwing the developers a "tip" it's been researched by the same people that know how to make people keep playing a slot machine. It's a pretty gross practice, whether this stuff is available without a purchase or not you can bet the game has been balanced to encourage it.

Like someone else said in the thread the reason you get a free box or can earn free boxes aren't a nice gesture, it's being used to show people how easy and cool the stuff is to get out of boxes.

All the parents I know restrict their consoles from being able to purchase without parental authorization.

TheGameguru wrote:

All the parents I know restrict their consoles from being able to purchase without parental authorization.

That's a smart move. Unfortunately I had this discussion with my brother and he doesn't have parental controls in place on his PS4, because he trusts his kids. They're not even tweens yet, though. They are very good about asking him before buying anything, and they know to be careful about purchases that might not look like purchases. He's done a good job educating them about that kind of thing.

I just hope he never encounters that one game that my neice or nephew love so much that they just have to have this or that extra...

TheGameguru wrote:
Rave wrote:

I think there is a huge difference between DLC and what is happening here. These loot boxes are straight up gambling, they prey on people with addictive tendencies and minors. If we really believe this game is just being played be people of legal age we are being dishonest.

All games that include this garbage should explicitly say so on the box, it should also have some kind of regulation. This stuff goes way deeper then throwing the developers a "tip" it's been researched by the same people that know how to make people keep playing a slot machine. It's a pretty gross practice, whether this stuff is available without a purchase or not you can bet the game has been balanced to encourage it.

Like someone else said in the thread the reason you get a free box or can earn free boxes aren't a nice gesture, it's being used to show people how easy and cool the stuff is to get out of boxes.

All the parents I know restrict their consoles from being able to purchase without parental authorization.

Funny not a single parent I know that has a teenager even knows these restriction options exist. Either way that still doesn't change what I am saying about it preying on people that are prone to uncontrollable gambling or purchases such as these. To kid yourself into thinking developers and publishers aren't banking on these "whales". These are not feel good decisions, I can't judge the value or merit of the item because i could be getting anything. These purchases should be available as a one time buy in so people can judge whether the product is worth the value.

Loot boxes, GMG loot boxes, GoG piñatas, even those blind box toys are all guilty of this to varying degrees.

Edit**Like I said games like these should be clearly labeled that the contain gambling mechanics, and stores should be required to warn purchasers. If we can have content ratings for games we should have the same protections in place for gambling mechanics. I bet a lot less developers would use these if they were actively dissuaded at time of purchases just like AO games.

Although as I've stated previously that I'm fine with microtransactions, I agree with the other sentiments that doing it via loot boxes is the worst way to implement them. I'm still not going to hold off on buying the game but I will be much less likely to participate in mixrotransactions than I would have been if I could see what I'm paying for. But we'll see, maybe it will be a better system than some of the others out there.

Edit**Like I said games like these should be clearly labeled that the contain gambling mechanics, and stores should be required to warn purchasers. If we can have content ratings for games we should have the same protections in place for gambling mechanics. I bet a lot less developers would use these if they were actively dissuaded at time of purchases just like AO games.

I have no issue with this.. I'm all for consumer awareness and making sure people understand exactly the nature of the product they are buying. I'm not sure I take it as far as making sure stores warn purchasers. Do they warn people when you buy alcohol or cigarettes? It's on the label and that's it.

Besides so much is purchased via Amazon as well as digital I think we can safely do this with a banner or label on the product page.

I would want to study the science and evidence of this before making these sorts of decisions. I admit I have not paid much attention to any study on the addictive and destructive nature of micro-transactions but if its on the "violence in video game" radar them I'm sure there is a plethora.

Cigarettes in Ontario (where I am from) are not advertised in anyway it's not even displayed it's hidden behind the counter where you have to ask for it, you are then required to present ID. Liquor is also sold in store and ID must be presented at purchase. The main difference between ID being presented here and at a game store is that generally it's actually enforced in these instances.

It also can't easily be subverted by picking up a gift card in a store and the credit being used to gamble or purchase the game online by a minor. There are no checks in place really to prevent it.

I don't know what the answer is to fix this problem, the industry doesn't seem to be governing itself like it did with ratings. This stuff quietly seems to escalate and become worse every year. As an informed consumer I can try to avoid supporting these transactions in games but really it's a much larger problem now. I don't think it's a defensible practice, and it should be frowned upon by those of us who do view this as a hobby and more then a pass time. We shouldn't be giving this a pass by saying it's just DLC or a way to tip the developer/publisher.

Edit** even gambling of any kinda here with lottery or scratch tickets odds of winning are made available, same with casinos. None of which is usually made available in games.

I still think over all this is a new practice that many mainstream people are not aware of. We are kind of the first line of defense as hobbyists, hopefully we can decry these practices to the publishers and developers and maybe even gaming journalists. That's how it becomes mainstream, or something awful happens that makes headlines but I think this is a much more devious epidemic then violence or sexuality in games.

That's how it becomes mainstream, or something awful happens that makes headlines but I think this is a much more devious epidemic then violence or sexuality in games.

We've seen the video game addiction headlines.. we've seen the child spends thousands on mobile app headlines.. I'm all for transparency in games but I'm not sure I'm on board with limiting what developers can do unless I'm shown scientific evidence that this results in direct harm and/or long term damage.

There is a difference between making sure the odds and exactly what is being transacted is clearly made known prior to purchase to let's make sure developers don't put this in their games.

TheGameguru wrote:

We've seen the video game addiction headlines.. we've seen the child spends thousands on mobile app headlines.. I'm all for transparency in games but I'm not sure I'm on board with limiting what developers can do unless I'm shown scientific evidence that this results in direct harm and/or long term damage.

I think there have been a lot of academics speak out about this stuf. And direct harm and long term damage of gambling and addictivness has been well documented. I'm not trying to limit what ways developers should try to make a living I just want them to go about it in an honest way. Taking advantage of the lax laws around this stuff does not make it right or honest in anyway.

The reason it's become more prevalent is directly tied to how profitable it is. It's a never ending hamster wheel that can charge multiple times without producing a product of worth (often giving you doubles that you can trade in towards another spin of the wheel). It started with free to play and proved to create some of the most profitable games ever made, its now infected our multiplayer games and is starting to trickle into single player. If they are going to take advantage of the addictive tendencies of people then they should be subject to the same laws gambling is. This will limit who can purchase the games and hurt the profit margin hopefully steering developers into a more honest means of content delivery.

They will often say it supports developers, or allows the team to create free dlc. Truth is it's far more profitable then sellin dlc, offering free dlc just helps keep people in the economy longer.

Well...this conversation took a turn.

Vector wrote:

Well...this conversation took a turn.

Yep no kidding. Game looks great. More of what the first built on. Can't wait to play it in Oct!

Vector wrote:

Well...this conversation took a turn.

Right? I think I'm still looking forward to this game in spite of the bad press because I really enjoyed the first one. But my enthusiasm is a bit tempered now.

Maybe I'll wait until it hits the bargain bins because I'll have a lot of other stuff to play and will probably still be playing Destiny 2 anyways.

Haha ok sorry to derail, it's a built in game mechanic so it seemed appropriate to talk about.

I had a family memeber with gambling addiction that ended up being very destructive to us. So I'm probably a bit to passionate about this, I just hate to see people defend it as a tip when in my opinion it's so much more.

Like I said hopefully the game is great so I can pick it up at sale price just won't be supporting at full price. I think I'm just disappointed because I loved the first game and everything looked so much better in this, I hate that this one thing has tarnished the game for me.

Rave wrote:

Haha ok sorry to derail, it's a built in game mechanic so it seemed appropriate to talk about.

I had a family memeber with gambling addiction that ended up being very destructive to us. So I'm probably a bit to passionate about this, I just hate to see people defend it as a tip when in my opinion it's so much more.

Like I said hopefully the game is great so I can pick it up at sale price just won't be supporting at full price. I think I'm just disappointed because I loved the first game and everything looked so much better in this, I hate that this one thing has tarnished the game for me.

Rave you really have good points though and I hadn't realized how pervasive these loot boxes have become. Just picked up Madden and you have random cards for MUT. They added loot crates to Elder Scrolls Online, my favorite MMO. Fortnite is built around random loot llamas. And of course Overwatch.

Agree, I don't like the way this is trending. But probably needs its own thread.

I think this trailer is way more offensive that lootboxes:

Yikes.

Charity DLC, for a late producer of the game. Kinda neat.

nel e nel wrote:

I think this trailer is way more offensive that lootboxes:

I was watching that yesterday and it's such an odd trailer compared to the others in that series. Really though, as long as they give me more than the first game, I'll be very very happy. The movement, combat, planning, and execution was so satisfying in Shadow of Mordor.

Very cool of them

Well just got to play Shadows of War for 30 minutes on a Scorpio at the Xbox booth at Pax.

I had quite a few skills unlocked, the skill tree is huge compared to the original. There also seems to be a more complex equipment system that I didn't dig into but there are lot more drops including gems and I think armor.

Not that I needed much convincing but definitely a day one purchase.

Just be aware that the charity DLC has some restrictions. It's only in the US and there are some US states that are exempt, so even if you buy it the family may not get the money.

Still a good cause, but see if it's best to 'donate' by buying the DLC or the guy's album, which is on sale.

Anyone playing the mobile game?
It's pretty fun but linear and of course there's lots of things you can buy in the store for real monies.
It has an option for Fellowships. I didn't see a GWJ one so I'll create one once I get level 15. I'm level 11 now.