Hollow Knight

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Hollow Knight is out!

I dont know if anyone else here is playing it but I am quite liking this. The art is lovely, the exploration is non-linear, the world building is nice and leans more than a little toward Dark Souls.

There isnt a lot of information out there and from what I've seen the other boards are infested with "Git Guds" (see Dark Souls abouve) so it might be friendlier to discuss tips etc. here.

Is anyone else playing this?

Yeah, picked it up the second it was available.

Very charming so far. The music is a special highlight, lovely and melancholy and the boss musics are really great.

I just finished up the Mantis Lords boss fight which was very tough indeed as at that point I had no weapon upgrades.

I like the little Dark Souls-y touches, it is nice how all the mobs have different patterns you have to learn.

On the downside a couple of bosses could do with have benches a bit closer, the stations are not always convenient and playing blind means I've been doing a lot of to-ing and fro-ing as the map doesn't quite record enough info to remind me of things that I need to return an re-check.

I've invested a fair amount of time (without a lot to show for it). I've opened several areas, but I am still short on upgrades. I think I've purchased all available charms to date, and bought out all the gear available in the first town (because I have to).

Playing over steamlink, I've encountered a few gameplay hitches (for lack of a better term) that have left me dead, so that's been frustrating.

All in all though, I love it. I keep finding myself dreaming up excuses to stop whatever it is I'm doing so I can go pick up the controller!

DanB wrote:

I just finished up the Mantis Lords boss fight which was very tough indeed as at that point I had no weapon upgrades.

Interesting. Did you die at all during the fight? I did, and the friendly explorer (Quimbley? Quiver?) basically said I'd need a weapon upgrade to face them. So I jumped up and wandered around to see where my double-jump granted me access.

I did a stream of it last night that I need to cut together clips for. It's interesting everyone is mentioning Dark Souls because I have minimal experience with that game. Super Metroid and Mega Man are the two greater influences I see, even in boss fights. Yet it feels like neither of them.

This game is pretty big based on the PDF map I got from the special edition pre-order, so "lacking upgrades" is probably a universal feeling. I don't think there's as many upgrades as you'd expect for a Metroidvania, at least not delivered as swiftly. Metroid is throwing them at you at a quick rate, be it things like new abilities or more missiles/health, and many games taking inspiration do the same. This is much more skill-based, so rewards come more slowly.

But I kinda love that about it. I tried the down-attack early in the game and decided the timing was awkward and just never used it. Then I fought Hornet, where her vulnerability is pretty much attacks from above. To survive her it's almost a necessity to get good with that ability. And it's good that I did, because then you gotta get good at bouncing off those fungal spores.

I'm really digging it, needless to say, and about 7 or 8 hours in finally got my first weapon upgrade. I think I'm gonna wander a bit more, not certain I'm gonna go ahead and tackle the Mantis Lords yet.

Tyrian wrote:

Playing over steamlink, I've encountered a few gameplay hitches (for lack of a better term) that have left me dead, so that's been frustrating.

I'm playing at my desktop and I get a momentary freeze about once every 10-20mins. And that has killed me on occasion.

ccesarano wrote:
DanB wrote:

I just finished up the Mantis Lords boss fight which was very tough indeed as at that point I had no weapon upgrades.

Interesting. Did you die at all during the fight? I did, and the friendly explorer (Quimbley? Quiver?) basically said I'd need a weapon upgrade to face them. So I jumped up and wandered around to see where my double-jump granted me access.

Yeah I died quite a lot. Although it really only took 2 or 3 tries to understand the rhythm of the fight. After that it was just a case of getting the execution right, which took me some time, but much less time than some Dark Souls boss fights.

I had talked to the explorer but just going and checking the various open paths in the hope they might be the right direction to head for the upgrade looked like it would take a long time so I just kept at the boss fight instead. Its a good fight with great music so I was, fairly, happy to plug at it would have been nicer if the nearest bench was a bit closer.

ccesarano wrote:

But I kinda love that about it. I tried the down-attack early in the game and decided the timing was awkward and just never used it. Then I fought Hornet, where her vulnerability is pretty much attacks from above. To survive her it's almost a necessity to get good with that ability. And it's good that I did, because then you gotta get good at bouncing off those fungal spores.

The first or second Hornet fight? I don't think I used the down attack at all on the first fight and I haven't got to the second one yet.

I tried playing using the new Xbox One S controllers over bluetooth with 2 different PC's and both were unplayable.. weird lag or non response with the button press that doesn't occur in other games.

DanB wrote:

The first or second Hornet fight? I don't think I used the down attack at all on the first fight and I haven't got to the second one yet.

The first fight. I found she was way too quick to effectively dodge when attacking from front/side and didn't have the patience to wait for certain attacks with a brief window to get one hit in. Perhaps the real trick is leap over her needle+thread and slash at her before the needle comes back? Similar to how a mini-boss in Mega Man X works, but I basically waited for her to do that charge from the air towards me, leaped up, and down-slashed at her head before bouncing away to safety. If she charged forward, I jumped and down-slashed again.

TheGameguru wrote:

I tried playing using the new Xbox One S controllers over bluetooth with 2 different PC's and both were unplayable.. weird lag or non response with the button press that doesn't occur in other games.

Hrm. I thought my control issues were due to my computer being a bit crap. In order to get 30fps I had to drop resolution to 720p, after which control improved. I still get the occasional lag danb mentioned, and occasionally it feels the controls aren't as responsive as I'd like, but my wired 360 controller is about 10 years old and was wonky with AM2R. I chalked it up to my controller but maybe it's a global thing?

ccesarano wrote:

It's interesting everyone is mentioning Dark Souls because I have minimal experience with that game. Super Metroid and Mega Man are the two greater influences I see, even in boss fights. Yet it feels like neither of them.

There are a few things that evoke dark souls here: the corpse-run mechanic, the don't get greedy skill-based combat, the exploration, and tone of the game.

Part of this is that for me the Souls games also call back to the metroidvania lineage with convoluted maps, unlocking different routes, and a good focus on exploring every nook.

The vibe of the game really speaks too the souls genre though. It's a dead world, the NPCs are cryptic, and not much of the game and world is explained. You're left to figure it out. The way everyone you run into comes back to that first village is very Dark Souls II as well. The sounds and atmosphere is definitely hitting the same notes as well.

Tyops wrote:

the don't get greedy skill-based combat

The way the health recharge works makes the boss fights play out very much like the estus works in the DS boss encounters.

DanB wrote:
Tyops wrote:

the don't get greedy skill-based combat

The way the health recharge works makes the boss fights play out very much like the estus works in the DS boss encounters.

Yes, and if you get caught by an attack it's very hard to scramble your way back into a rhythm.

I got in to a few areas through alternate paths and a few of the fights were really challenging. I think so far for me the toughest fight was Elder Hu.

Just hit a very cool plot point and the game has really opened up. Lots more to do, making the game much bigger than I'd assumed it was going to be.

Kickstarted but didn't check email so I was surprised when it came out! I went ahead and bought it on Steam anyway because apparently you have to do this survey thing and whatever but my key wasn't ready for me.
I'm just gonna gift it whenever it arrives. And maybe buy a Switch copy.

Beware they still have software glitches and lack proper controller support on PC. I'm actually a little pissed (I've still put 84 minutes into it).
I mean really, FFS, they are on Mac, Linux and Windows. HOW THE f*ck DO YOU NOT HAVE SUPPORT FOR GENERIC USB CONTROLLERS?
My pledge level allowed me to be a beta tester, but I didn't partake, so..there is that.

My xbox360 controller seems to be completely fine.

Also where is the Mac support, Steam says Win only for me.

Was anyone else bummed about False Knight?

Spoiler:

I didn't want to kill him/it, and it just sat there, defeated, but game wouldn't let me continue without finishing him off.

xbox360 controller is an XInput device, I said "GENERIC USB CONTROLLERS" aka HID devices
The only officially supported controllers are XBone, PS4, and Steam Controller.
Mac delayed

Defeated the Mantis Lords (Ladies?) tonight. They were pretty fun, and getting the hang of down-attack has been really fun, awesome, and useful. I had already explored the City of Tears yesterday, but tonight I decided to just explore in all directions. Focusing on combat, obstacle courses, and charms while keeping upgrades slowly paced I think really works with their more open style of level design. It sits comfortably between the disguised linearity of Super Metroid and Castlevania: Symphony of the Night's obtuse "I guess I'm going the right direction?" that I swiftly bounced off of.

I don't know if it'll make a difference, but if you find yourself in the Deep Nests, explore elsewhere until you can buy the lantern from the shopkeep. I've explored a whole bunch myself, but God dammit do I wish there was a nearby Stag station marked on the map. As of right now my only way out (or closest) is to the Fungal Wastes, I think.

ccesarano wrote:

I don't know if it'll make a difference, but if you find yourself in the Deep Nests, explore elsewhere until you can buy the lantern from the shopkeep.

I guess I'll spoiler this.

Spoiler:

I found the shopkeep fairly early on and immediately saved for the lantern. I ended up with enough Geo for it right about when I got the dash. Immediately went to the crystal peak and found my way haphazardly to the Resting Grounds. I ended up fighting Xero without any upgrads and because I didnt have the mantis claw yet I could only access the fight from the Crystal Zone. My guess is that's not the way your supposed to do this. I'm really happy that there are paths like this.

Now that I've got a fair way through (I'm guessing about halfway, possibly more), the upgrades are coming fairly thick and fast. Judging by the achievements list it looks like there is a fairly rapid critical path in the game.

So... my guess is that the upgrades are actually laid out in a fairly regular rhythm if you always go to the "correct" next area. I think the slow (initial) pacing of the upgrades reflects more that I've been somewhat lost and mostly just idly exploring the nooks and crannies.

Tyops wrote:
Spoiler:

I found the shopkeep fairly early on and immediately saved for the lantern. I ended up with enough Geo for it right about when I got the dash. Immediately went to the crystal peak and found my way haphazardly to the Resting Grounds. I ended up fighting Xero without any upgrads and because I didnt have the mantis claw yet I could only access the fight from the Crystal Zone. My guess is that's not the way your supposed to do this. I'm really happy that there are paths like this.

Spoiler:

Yeah, I did the mantis lords with no weapon upgrade. Then Futzed around for ages after that before finally being able to afford the lamp and like you took a ramshackle path to the Resting Grounds. Unlike you I somehow failed to understand the Xero thing and wandered off to kill other ghosts before finding my way back and realising that his grave was 'a thing'(tm).

Mostly I'm wandering around now saving for the 2nd weapon upgrade and contemplating trying to re-find those plant things I've passed.

I still wish the Stag Stations were a bit more central in their areas, on many occasions I've looked at the map and thought "I want to go to this location but the nearest station is too far, urgh, I'll not bother now"

I get a bit of a Salt and Sanctuary vibe from looking at this game, is that a valid comparison at all in any sense?

cls33 wrote:

I get a bit of a Salt and Sanctuary vibe from looking at this game, is that a valid comparison at all in any sense?

It's about in the middle of Salt and Sanctuary and Ori and the Blind Forest.

There are no classes, stats, or gear in this one.

cls33 wrote:

I get a bit of a Salt and Sanctuary vibe from looking at this game, is that a valid comparison at all in any sense?

I was actually reflecting on this question a fair bit this morning.

Salt & Sanctuary just reworks the mechanics of the Souls games in to a 2D platformer. It puts its own spin on some things but that is fairly cosmetic. If you're being kind S&S is a homage to Dark Souls, if you're less kind it openly rips it off.

Hollow Knight on the other hand is first and foremost a metroidvania platformer. It is not mechanically especially like the Souls games and definitely not RPG like. Except... it gets the "empty decaying world" tonality of the Souls game much better than S&S does. And due to some excellent boss design (so far) and a smart choice in how healing works the boss fights have a rhythm that is quite a lot like Souls boss fights

Right now I feel like Hollow Knight "gets" Dark Souls more than S&S did. But that will depend on how much you value the set and setting above the mechanics of play.

Wow, so lots of progress last night (without actually accomplishing anything?)

Spoiler:

I wormed through the Crystal Peak and ended up in the graveyard. Then up in the in-between, after getting banished by the dreamers. Acquired the dream nail, got the upgrade from beating the warrior ghost there... Got the plant and warrior ghost in the Howling Cliffs, which was enough to get the second Seer reward (opening the door). Beyond there was enough additional light essence to get Seer reward #3 (a piece of pale ore)!

So next it was off to where Hornet had last escaped me, and crossing the bridge. Explored the City of Tears, found the nailsmith (upgrade x2!), found the map, found the guy that buys the seemingly useless artifacts you can pick up (journals, crests, idols and ?).

Mostly filled out the map there, and opened the elevator back to the Forgotten Crossroads.

No bosses found (yet) or even attempted. Things marked on my map. So much to see!

Bees!!!!!

My current sense is that the order of the enemies in

Spoiler:

the hunter's journal

gives you a good indication of the order the areas are best attempted in

I'm not sure how this one flew under my radar. Looks pretty sweet.

Another one for the pile, I suppose. Please slow down a bit, 2017 games.

Tried to play more tonight but got too much mind baggage going on for some reason. Bleh. BLEH.

bleh...

Picked up two more traversal skills yesterday. It's like the map keeps opening up in layers. Based on the number of charms I have now though I must be close to wrapping things up.

I am bad at the

Spoiler:

Mantis Lords and Soul Master

I get impatient, or just make stupid mistakes. Fast focus isn't fast enough!

I should return to the Crystal Peak and explore it fully.

I am super amazed/delighted how the game keeps opening up and changing. I keep feeling like I must have sent most of the map and then I keep finding new named areas.

I beat the former, but died on the latter last night.

Spoiler:

The Mantis Lords are largely about timing your dash and jumps. After I reached the point you fight two at a time and died, I got a bit more careful and patient and managed to defeat them with little struggle.

That Soul Bastard, though. I have issue with the spell casters in general, though, so it's not as much him so much as it is everyone else. I may need to swap out a charm or two to something that either boosts health or boosts the speed at which I heal.

But first: gotta get my soul back.

I haven't even seen that boss. I'm still working on finding the 3rd pale ore

DanB wrote:

I haven't even seen that boss. I'm still working on finding the 3rd pale ore

Still havent found the 3rd one either. It's been easy enough to avoid looking at spoilers though so I dont mind keeping looking.

Also in case anyone didnt know...

Spoiler:

there are at least two charms that extend the reach of your nail and they stack. Using both at the same time is significant. It's made certain sections of the game where you have to use the down attack to "bounce" on things quite a bit easier.

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