GWJ Conference Call Episode 540

Nioh, The Wild Eight, Solitarica, John Wick VR, The Post-Greenlight View of Steam, Your Emails and More!

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This week Shawn, Cory, Julian and Allen talk about the future of Steam in a post-Greenlight world.

To contact us, email call@gamerswithjobs.com! Send us your thoughts on the show, pressing issues you want to talk about or whatever else is on your mind.

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Show credits

Music credits: 

Quit Bitching - Broke for Free - http://brokeforfree.com/ - 41:54

If - Broke for Free - http://brokeforfree.com/ - 1:07:10

Comments

00:01:48 John Wick VR
00:10:27 Nioh
00:26:36 League of Legends
00:31:37 The Wild Eight
00:38:18 Solitarica
00:41:54 The Death of Steam Greenlight
01:07:10 Your Emails

*Looks at Beckett post time, looks at podcast post time*

Warlock!

Frame Trap episode 22 has a good discussion about Nioh alongside other games (and is as just a charming and informative podcast in general. Ben Moore should be a guest on more podcasts.)

I haven't played Nioh yet, other than the demo that I didn't stick with, but I'm getting more and more interested. From what I've heard, Chi recovery gets more important when the ghost enemies drop an AOE that drains your stamina. It sounds like the Chi recovery effect is the only way to dispel that AOE.

You're right in terms of there not being too many places enemy AI can go in shooters without it being frustrating for the player. Having thought about it some more I suspect that, rather like graphics, AI has improved quite a bit but we don't remember how bad it actually was in past games.

Nioh is one of those games that I like the idea of, but I know I don't have the patience for... I played the beta briefly, and it seems very cool, but I have bounced off every Dark Souls-like game I have tried. I'm less interested in the challenge of video games, and more interested in the story and escapism and the "I can pretend to do something great here that I will never be able to do in real life" aspect.

As a John Wick fan, I am really hoping they bring it to PSVR!

Re: LoL or other old games with new updates (the "LoL Beat")

I have zero interest in LoL, or Heroes of the Storm, or whatever other MOBAs. But I do like to hear about new game modes. Even if MOBAs don't hold my interest, I still like to hear about novel game design. I wouldn't listen to an hour about Bloodmoon, but 5-ish minutes when they introduce a new game mode is basically perfect.

Re: Justin and maintaining interest

Man, do I feel this. I have a pile (PILE) of board games, and they rarely get played. Partly because I'm just too lazy to gather together the people required to play them. But the other part is that I've figured a lot of them out. Once I can see the path to the end of the game, it starts to feel like playing out the death spiral in Monopoly. I've literally stopped play of games before to explain that someone is enough in the lead that it's mathematically impossible for anyone to displace them. (I /must/ be fun at parties.)

There are some games that just /work/ for me though. Quiddler and Love Letter both jump to mind. They're basically card games that do only one thing and have a good blend of luck and reasoning in them. Maybe look to some simpler games instead of more complicated ones.

...this answered so many questions about Goodjer cannibalism that I never thought to ask.

I always thought of rabbit as like Dr Bunsen Honeydew, and demiurge as Scooter.

In the frozen tundra of Canadia I bet Certis has already had to chow down on some friends and family during the unforgiving winter season. Your moral objections are little more than naive mewling to him.

Serious note, once upon a time read an article by a developer that put forth the notion that good A.I. isn't as much of a challenge as dumbing it down is, and as was observed, the problem with A.I. that's too smart is that it'll outsmart the player easily. The challenge, I think, is introducing fallibility and reflex.

At least, that's my guess. I don't play a lot of competitive games, but I know PvE is designed for the player to win, which provides a different challenge than PvP. In PvP, an enemy caught by surprise might be cool under pressure or they might just panic. A player may start out with one tactic, but suddenly change strategy not because of any cold calculation but some gut feeling or instinct. They may be holding a sniper rifle and, upon being rushed, may try and shoot you point blank because you caught them off guard and they don't know what else to do.

A.I., on the other hand, follows specific rules and guidelines. There's no instinct or unpredictability. Smarter A.I. would just be more cold and calculating and able to think through a situation faster than you. In which case, you need to begin programming flaws into its thought process. Now that you're programming flaws, you gotta test and make sure the behavior doesn't break immersion.

In the end, it's probably better to just keep A.I. convincing enough without being too smart.

I'd say Rabbit's a bit off bringing up Halo, though. 343 Industries is a different team by this point, and if you look at Destiny more closely you'll see a variety of A.I. types and evolutions based on difficulty level and creature type. Granted, it's still largely video-gamey and is just an iteration over Halo, but the enemies are much better at flanking and self-preservation than the Covenant ever were. Something as simple as enemies ducking for cover the second they see your sniper rifle is enough to make a difference, though (they don't duck and hide from any other weapon like they do a sniper rifle).

Felix Threepaper wrote:

I always thought of rabbit as like Dr Bunsen Honeydew, and demiurge as Scooter.

I think Certis has to be Kermit, the long-suffering host who's nominally in charge but resigned to watching the whole place collapse around him.

I'm one of those weirdos (that makes me Gonzo, right?) who liked Greenlight right up to the end. In the past few months the PC release list has been full of great looking things that I want to get as soon as I have the budget for them.

I chalk it up to the fact that I'm interested in almost everything, so the fact that curation is a random mess actually works in my favor (it's also why the Netflix curation system is so terrible for me. They cannot figure me out, so my recommendations are full of things like "Because you watched Sword Art Online, try these three specials by Jeff Dunham!"). I love that the curation is completely random for me, because it means I see things I would never have seen otherwise.

Sure, Greenlight led to a lot of what most people would consider crap getting out there but here's the thing: Somebody out there is going to play one of those greenlit turkeys and love it. The idea that there is "too much content" on steam is anathema to me. Too much? I want more! More wacky! More weird! More experimental oddities!

But like I said, I'm weird.

Felix Threepaper wrote:

I always thought of rabbit as like Dr Bunsen Honeydew, and demiurge as Scooter.

Yeah, I came here to post the same thing.

IMAGE(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dd/Dr._Bunsen_Honeydew.jpg)

doubtingthomas396 wrote:

I think Certis has to be Kermit, the long-suffering host who's nominally in charge but resigned to watching the whole place collapse around him.

Also true. It's not easy being Certis.

I'm surprised no one said Animal. Everyone likes to be Animal.

doubtingthomas396 wrote:

I'm one of those weirdos (that makes me Gonzo, right?)

IMAGE(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2ETCDJCj2vs/VIuk3V_Q6nI/AAAAAAAAAxs/2BFXuvdZRKQ/s1600/Statler%2Band%2BWaldorf.jpg)

As for the email about playing games well after the herd has moved on ... I've just started the Witcher 3.

I can tell when an older game like Witcher 3 has got its hooks in me when I dig up the relevant GWJ Conference Call ep/s to revisit the panel's discussion of it. (Not the spoiler cast though!) At times like these, the time stamp notes are really appreciated.

Now, back to Gwent...

TrashiDawa wrote:
doubtingthomas396 wrote:

I'm one of those weirdos (that makes me Gonzo, right?)

IMAGE(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2ETCDJCj2vs/VIuk3V_Q6nI/AAAAAAAAAxs/2BFXuvdZRKQ/s1600/Statler%2Band%2BWaldorf.jpg)

I can live with being Waldorf. His mustache is better than mine, but give me time.

Also, hey! Thanks for the shout-out, Certis! I'm solving the Steam curation problem!

Also, hey! Thanks for the shout-out, Certis! I'm solving the Steam curation problem!

Real rogue's gallery of games in there.

Certis wrote:
Also, hey! Thanks for the shout-out, Certis! I'm solving the Steam curation problem!

Real rogue's gallery of games in there.

Thanks. I try!

Zudz wrote:

Re: LoL or other old games with new updates (the "LoL Beat")

I have zero interest in LoL, or Heroes of the Storm, or whatever other MOBAs. But I do like to hear about new game modes. Even if MOBAs don't hold my interest, I still like to hear about novel game design. I wouldn't listen to an hour about Bloodmoon, but 5-ish minutes when they introduce a new game mode is basically perfect.

I'm very much in this boat. I find it interesting to hear about games I'd ordinarily not play, including MOBAs and Soulslikes, as long as it doesn't go on too long. I'm a bit tired of hearing about Nioh, because Waypoint has been going on about it for a few episodes, but Certis has a pretty different take on it to the Waypoint crew.

Rabbit, I'm looking forward to watching GoT for the first time after the series ends. I hope you will be willing to discuss it with me on here.

So I've been around here for a while, and I've been a long-time supporter of the site, both financially and in spreading the word of how great a community is, so please read the following knowing that it comes someone with nothing but love for GWJ. *Man* did you guys irritate me with the opening discussion of Nioh! For a site that prides itself on openness and intelligent discussion, sniffingly dismissing the main character as "some random white dude who decided to become a samurai" was absolutely jarring.

To the extent that discussing character race was even necessary, the most cursory research would have shown that the protagonist is based on a genuinely interesting historical character, rather than being a "random white dude". William Adams, later known as Miura Anjin, is credited as being the first Englishman to come to Japan and the first (of a very few) Western samurai in Japan's history. His influence on the leading figures of Japan at the time, including the Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu, was extraordinary. Further, most of the other major characters in Nioh were also remarkable historical figures, albeit with their stories often adjusted to allow for a world filled with actual Yokai.

I guess my point is that despite being a Souls-like game of dexterity and slashing, Nioh can actually serve as a jumping off point for people to read about a really fascinating period in Japan. Much of the lore in the game is taken directly from Japanese history and culture. You guys have given a lot of credit to games such as Crusader Kings and Europa Universalis for inspiring people to study European history. I think it's worth giving Nioh a little more credit in that regard.

It's not clear to me why the developers chose an Irish voice-actor for him. Perhaps it's a continuation of the meme that villains must have English accents, and they wanted to differentiate him. Maybe they just thought that Irish sounded more fun!

For those interested, the pronunciation of "Nioh" is "knee oh", with a truncated "o" sound for the "oh".

Anyway, it was an otherwise enjoyable podcast. Keep up the good work!

Great cast as always :-). What's the title of the game Shawn refers to as he talks about the thread of the week? Gunpoint like, released in March 2016?

Damn you. Damn you all for telling me about Solitairica. You owe me many hours of my life back, and that total is rising... My lawyers will be contacting you about settlement terms - assuming they can put down Solitairica for long enough...

Coldstream wrote:

So I've been around here for a while, and I've been a long-time supporter of the site, both financially and in spreading the word of how great a community is, so please read the following knowing that it comes someone with nothing but love for GWJ. *Man* did you guys irritate me with the opening discussion of Nioh! For a site that prides itself on openness and intelligent discussion, sniffingly dismissing the main character as "some random white dude who decided to become a samurai" was absolutely jarring.

To the extent that discussing character race was even necessary, the most cursory research would have shown that the protagonist is based on a genuinely interesting historical character, rather than being a "random white dude". William Adams, later known as Miura Anjin, is credited as being the first Englishman to come to Japan and the first (of a very few) Western samurai in Japan's history. His influence on the leading figures of Japan at the time, including the Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu, was extraordinary. Further, most of the other major characters in Nioh were also remarkable historical figures, albeit with their stories often adjusted to allow for a world filled with actual Yokai.

I guess my point is that despite being a Souls-like game of dexterity and slashing, Nioh can actually serve as a jumping off point for people to read about a really fascinating period in Japan. Much of the lore in the game is taken directly from Japanese history and culture. You guys have given a lot of credit to games such as Crusader Kings and Europa Universalis for inspiring people to study European history. I think it's worth giving Nioh a little more credit in that regard.

It's not clear to me why the developers chose an Irish voice-actor for him. Perhaps it's a continuation of the meme that villains must have English accents, and they wanted to differentiate him. Maybe they just thought that Irish sounded more fun!

For those interested, the pronunciation of "Nioh" is "knee oh", with a truncated "o" sound for the "oh".

Anyway, it was an otherwise enjoyable podcast. Keep up the good work!

Very well said and true. I didn't learn about this dude's place in history until after the podcast, so thanks for laying it out here too. I still think I'd take character choice over this one dude, since he doesn't really have much actual ... character but the point is well taken.

Cory and I talk more about Nioh on the next show, we've cooled a bit on it as we've gotten further in. Still like it, but you can tell this is their first shot at the genre and they miss a few marks compared to the more matured Souls games.

Certis wrote:

Cory and I talk more about Nioh on the next show, we've cooled a bit on it as we've gotten further in. Still like it, but you can tell this is their first shot at the genre and they miss a few marks compared to the more matured Souls games.

This seems to be the general consensus. I suspect that some of my enthusiasm for the game is that it seems to have hooked me, despite my bouncing hard off of the Souls and Bloodborne games. As a genre, I've long wanted to experience the obsession and rush that some folks seem to get from working their way through the Souls/Bloodborne experience, and I'm getting a bit of a taste of it now! The Japanese setting also helps out a great deal, since it's somewhat unusual.

I'll be interested to see if I can go back and give Bloodborne a shot now that I'm finally starting to feel the draw of Souls-like games.

dewalist wrote:

Damn you. Damn you all for telling me about Solitairica. You owe me many hours of my life back, and that total is rising... My lawyers will be contacting you about settlement terms - assuming they can put down Solitairica for long enough...

Same. My wife and I are hooked.
Damn you all.

Coldstream wrote:

I'll be interested to see if I can go back and give Bloodborne a shot now that I'm finally starting to feel the draw of Souls-like games.

Bloodborne is an phenomenal game if you can get into it.

Certis, if you're really interested in seeing someone play Dark Souls as they get progressively more drunk, Kuvo did a shields-only run where he raced his liver to the final boss.

https://lparchive.org/Dark-Souls/Str...

Pro-tip: I have a Steam category called "Drunkies", that is my one-stop shop for games to play when I'm too un-sober for anything requiring reflexes, long-term strategic thinking or recollection of prior narrative.

Pretty sure I played most of The Walking Dead sauced up to the gills.

Jonman wrote:

Pro-tip: I have a Steam category called "Drunkies", that is my one-stop shop for games to play when I'm too un-sober for anything requiring reflexes, long-term strategic thinking or recollection of prior narrative.

Pretty sure I played most of The Walking Dead sauced up to the gills.

I like that.

I used to have categories for everything based on genre, but I found that it was easy to lose games I haven't played yet in the shuffle. Now I have it broken down thusly:

Games I've reviewed
Games I'm done with
Games I'm playing
Games with Duke Nukem in them
Gifts (with subcategories for general gifts, and gifts from specific seasonal sales by year)
Games I don't wish to remember owning.
Uncategorized games, also known as The Pile.

Why isn't Certis this guy?

IMAGE(http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/muppet/images/1/16/Walter-whitebg.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111116132835)

UpToIsomorphism wrote:

Why isn't Certis this guy?

IMAGE(http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/muppet/images/1/16/Walter-whitebg.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111116132835)

Why would you insult Certis by suggesting he's a post-Henson muppet? There are no good post-Henson Muppets. Even the Muppets that existed pre-Henson are terrible without Henson.

It's just a bunch of people waving fuzzy gloves around with no understanding of what actually made the Muppets a phenomenon (doo dooo doo doo doo!). They all try to ape Henson, but none of them understood why Henson was great.

I swear, if I never see another Johnny come lately puppeteer do that little "rock the puppet's head from side to side in a show of how proud they are of themselves" again, it will be too soon. It's not enough to sound like Kermit or to act like how you think a Muppet acts! It's more than funny voices and ping pong ball eyes.

Kermit (and Ernie, and Waldorf) were great characters because Henson put some of himself in them. He was acting, not mugging. Nobody does that anymore. It's all mugging and trying to remind people of better times. Even more so now that Oz and Goelz are stepping away.

...

Wow, that rant kind of got away from me.

doubtingthomas396 wrote:
UpToIsomorphism wrote:

Why isn't Certis this guy?

IMAGE(http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/muppet/images/1/16/Walter-whitebg.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111116132835)

Why would you insult Certis by suggesting he's a post-Henson muppet? There are no good post-Henson Muppets. Even the Muppets that existed pre-Henson are terrible without Henson.

It's just a bunch of people waving fuzzy gloves around with no understanding of what actually made the Muppets a phenomenon (doo dooo doo doo doo!). They all try to ape Henson, but none of them understood why Henson was great.

I swear, if I never see another Johnny come lately puppeteer do that little "rock the puppet's head from side to side in a show of how proud they are of themselves" again, it will be too soon. It's not enough to sound like Kermit or to act like how you think a Muppet acts! It's more than funny voices and ping pong ball eyes.

Kermit (and Ernie, and Waldorf) were great characters because Henson put some of himself in them. He was acting, not mugging. Nobody does that anymore. It's all mugging and trying to remind people of better times. Even more so now that Oz and Goelz are stepping away.

...

Wow, that rant kind of got away from me.

Eh, while Walter is a dumb character, I do think Jason Segel does show the correct love and passion for the medium and at least a sufficient amount of the talent compare to Henson.
um, what thread is this??