GWJ Conference Call Episode 529

Planet Coaster, Dishonored 2, Multiple Endings in Games, Your Emails and More!

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This week Sean Sands, Julian and Shawn talk building coasters, multiple game endings and more!

To contact us, email [email protected]! Send us your thoughts on the show, pressing issues you want to talk about or whatever else is on your mind.

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Show credits

Music credits: 

Battle End - BoxCat Games - http://box-cat.com/ - 25:04

Storm - BoxCat Games - http://box-cat.com/ - 48:58

Comments

As if I wasn't having enough fun in Planet Coaster already, your discussion made me want to down tools and go play it again right away. I've got work to do dammit!

00:01:30 Planet Coaster
00:14:15 Dishonored 2
00:24:15 Playstation VR
00:25:04 Multiple Endings in Games
00:48:58 Your Emails

You folks have almost sold me a copy of Planet Coaster.

On the subject of multiple endings: I have to say I don't like the "everything you do during the game informs the ending" method of the Witcher games because it's exhausting and nerve wracking.

My wife played Undertale, and was trying for the pacifist ending. The problem was that the game is extraordinarily unforgiving, and she ruined her chance at the good ending because of a bad keystroke early on when she was still learning the combat system. She accidentally killed a character in the first hour, and the remaining hours and hours of gameplay were rendered useless from the perspective of the ending. It soured her on the game.

I feel the same way about the Witcher series. The reason I've never played one is that I don't want to mess up my ending because what I think is the right choice is different from what the developers think is the right choice. The Witcher makes it worse by demanding that you play three, four, thirty hours of gameplay before you find out your choice was "wrong." At that point I'll stop playing, because even if I save-scummed I'm still stuck replaying hours and hours just to find out that some other choice I made was also wrong.

That may be "life" but if I wanted "life" I'd go live mine. Life will ask you to do your best and then screw you for the lulz. Video games are, for me, supposed to be a place where I can exert more control over my destiny than I have in real life.

The Mass Effect/Deus Ex solution is not really much better, but at least it tries to solve the problem for people who think of video games as if they were, well, video games.

I get why this is such an important problem to fix. A bad ending will ruin a game for me, whether it's one I chose or not. I've had a lot of experiences where I loved playing a game, only to be so disappointed (and, in a few cases, enraged) by the ending that any goodwill the game earned for being fun along the way was completely boiled off. If a game can't stick the landing, I'd almost rather not play it at all. (Note: I feel the same way about movies, books and TV shows.) It's the main reason why I actively seek spoilers on game stories if I hear they are "story rich." I'd rather know a good ending is coming than be surprised by a bad one.

EDIT:

I just got to the part where you read my email.

Thanks for the compliment, and thanks for plugging Asynchronous multiplayer Podcast!

Episode 11 dropped this week.

And yes, I'm bad as promoting it. I'm also trying to fix a technical issue where I get a weird digital static/crackle at random intervals during recording. This is apparently a common issue with versions of Windows after Windows 7, and I ask your patience. I've put in a support ticket to the manufacturer (we each use a blue snowball mic) to see if there's a way to resolve it.

Dag nab it, this episode made me re-download Witcher 3, but I hate, hate, hate the combat. Even on e asy I have trouble getting past the Kira Metz mission. I only know that name because I have died so many times. Then I get buried in menus trying to set up quick heal items, and stuff be breaking down.

But no, once more into that breech.

I am most thankful for TF2. Like the folks on the podcast not because of the game per se but because it let me hang around with a bunch of wonderful people a few hours a week, people I consider friends (a few of whom I have gone on to meet in person, to my everlasting delight, and more I plan on meeting up with someday). I will always be thankful to have been part of such a great group of folks.

fledermaus wrote:

Dag nab it, this episode made me re-download Witcher 3, but I hate, hate, hate the combat. Even on e asy I have trouble getting past the Kira Metz mission. I only know that name because I have died so many times. Then I get buried in menus trying to set up quick heal items, and stuff be breaking down.

But no, once more into that breech.

What build are you using? Trust me, I'm terrible at games, and I too found some fights difficult on easy mode. But I put all my skill points into the alchemy tree and you basically become unkillable after you reach a certain point. If you want more info pop into the Witcher 3 thread where I will happily write about the game all day

I kinda think that the discussion in the cast and this thread shows why devs are in a no-win situation with choice, consequence and narrative in their games.

On one hand, you have the panellists who want the world (and its ending) to be shaped by all their decisions along the way, crafting a unique ending reflecting their particular combo of choices. But then you have the DT view about not wanting something you did in hour 1 to gimp you for the ending you wanted in hour 31. Solution? Have a "Pick a box" ending a la ME3 and DX:HR, then get bagged that NOTHING you did up till that point mattered.

How do you give players a sense that their decisions along the way mattered, separately from the Big Ending? Well, maybe through a little montage ala Fallout or Wasteland 2 setting out a kind of "where are they now" ending for various factions you encountered along the way -- but then peeps say it's superficial and unsatisfying.

Alternately, you do a story where The Narrative imposes itself regardless of your choices, ala Dragon Age 2, and some people can be like "Yup, the lesson is that our choices don't affect outcome, just the journey" while others complain that their choices "don't matter".

Alpha Protocol did a good branching story with multiple endings (and middles) depending on who you'd sided with during your game. The Big Bad always ends up being [spoiler] but it was very flexible as to who else was with you or against you at the end and how you got there. However, your character will always end up

Spoiler:

escaping on a boat

, it's just a matter of who else is

Spoiler:

on the boat

.

You want a totally unique narrative that reflects and responds to your choices from day 1 all the way to the end? Play a strategy game, but good luck finding someone else interested in your story.

You had a good run, but I do look forward to the new Gamblers With Jobs Conference Call.

Felix Threepaper wrote:

I kinda think that the discussion in the cast and this thread shows why devs are in a no-win situation with choice, consequence and narrative in their games.

On one hand, you have the panellists who want the world (and its ending) to be shaped by all their decisions along the way, crafting a unique ending reflecting their particular combo of choices. But then you have the DT view about not wanting something you did in hour 1 to gimp you for the ending you wanted in hour 31. Solution? Have a "Pick a box" ending a la ME3 and DX:HR, then get bagged that NOTHING you did up till that point mattered.

You're right that devs will never make everyone happy, but I think it's important for them to try signal early exactly what the player is in for when it comes to choice and consequence. And this includes the pre-release promotion.

It's also important to stick to the messaging. I think Bioware shot themselves in the foot by being too ambitious out of the gate so maintaining what they set out to do ended up being impossible. The Witcher, despite the odd spell of saving the world, is a more intimate story which constrains the narrative consequences of your choices.

By the way, I loved the little sigh just before Certis said "Duke Nukem Forever."

Like most, I have a love/hate relationship with in-game choice and multiple endings. On the one hand, I love the immersion. This "genre" is why I love games; they are an immersive experience, rather than "observance" ala movies or books. I still remember my first play through of Dragon Age: Origins. I played a city elf and was full on furious at the local human lord for taking my wife on our wedding day. My actions ultimately had little affect on the game (other than conversation triggers once I went back to the city), but the fact that a game could get that much emotion from me IRL was amazing (one might even add it to the conversation of "awe" from the podcast).

That said, I don't love games that give me meaty choices that are heavy in the moment, that have no real affect on the game or world. You made me feel so much and invest so much in this choice, for nothing in the end. I'm looking at you Telltale's Walking Dead and Game of Thrones. Don't get me wrong, I love those games because of the immersion and IRL feelings they generate. I don't always appreciate being made a sucker for stewing over this timed decision, which doesn't actually change anything in the end.

In the end, I agree. Giving players the ability to affect the story is not a perfect win for devs because everyone wants something different from their choices. But to me, even a decision system that doesn't perfectly match my desires is better than none at all.