
European Politics discussion
Trump telling Europe what to do, that'll go over well.
Oh for f*ck's sake.
Suspected car ram attacker in Munich is Afghan asylum seeker, officials say
The suspect was known to police for theft and drug offences. Reports say the 24-year-old came to Germany in 2016 - his asylum was application rejected, but his deportation was suspended
A fantastic campaign ad for the AfD.
Reform really is leading Labour along by the nose on policy, huh?
PM pledges to close loophole that let Gazans settle in UK
The government is working to close a loophole which allowed a Palestinian family the right to live in the UK, after they originally applied through a scheme designed for Ukrainians.
Conservative leader Kemi Badenoch raised the case during Prime Minister's Questions, saying it was "completely wrong".
In response Sir Keir Starmer said he agreed, adding that "it should be Parliament that makes the rules on immigration".
The family of six, whose home in Gaza was destroyed by an air strike, applied to join the father's brother in the UK using the Ukraine Family Scheme.
The application was refused in May last year, after the Home Office concluded the requirements of the scheme were not met.
The family's initial appeal was dismissed by a first-tier immigration tribunal judge in September.
But following a hearing in January, a further appeal was upheld by upper tribunal judges on the grounds of Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which protects the right to a family life.
Badenoch said the decision "cannot be allowed to stand" and asked the prime minister whether the government was planning to appeal.
She added: "We cannot be in a situation where we allow enormous numbers of people to exploit our laws in this way."
In response, Sir Keir said: "It should be Parliament that makes the rules on immigration.
"It should be the government that makes the policy, that is the principle, and the home secretary is already looking at the legal loophole which we need to close in this particular case."
Badenoch repeatedly pressed the PM over whether he would appeal the case and change the law.
Batting away her questions, Sir Keir insisted he had already made clear the home secretary was working on closing the loophole.
He added: "She complains about scripted answers and questions, her script doesn't allow her to listen to the answer.
"She asked me if we're going to change the law and close the loophole in question one, I said yes. She asked me again in question two, and I said yes. She asked me again in question three, it's still yes."
When questioned after the session, the prime minister's official spokesman did not specify what the "loophole" that needed closing was.
UK to deny citizenship to small boat refugees
The government has toughened up rules making it almost impossible for a refugee who arrives in the UK on a small boat to become a British citizen.
New guidance states that anyone who enters the UK illegally having made a dangerous journey, which could be via boat, but also by means such as hiding in a vehicle, will normally be refused citizenship, regardless of the time that has passed.
In a statement, the Home Office said the strengthened measures made it clear that anyone who entered the UK illegally would face having a British citizenship application refused.
But the change has been condemned by the Refugee Council and some Labour MPs - including Stella Creasy who said the change "meant refugees would forever remain second class citizens".
Oh for f*ck's sake.
Suspected car ram attacker in Munich is Afghan asylum seeker, officials say
The suspect was known to police for theft and drug offences. Reports say the 24-year-old came to Germany in 2016 - his asylum was application rejected, but his deportation was suspendedA fantastic campaign ad for the AfD.
Yep, we've had a couple of those in the past 8 months.
Mannheim
Wolmirstedt
Solingen
Magdeburg - which has been discussed here.
Aschaffenburg which led to the CDU and our future chancellor Friedrich Merz bringing in a law to pass big changes to asylum law under the knowledge that it would likely only reach a majority WITH the AfD - a first, and something he explicitly stated he would never do.
The motion failed (barely) and the process of "counting on AfD votes" to try to get something passed led to mass protests across the country (I went to one locally) two weeks ago.
and today, Munich.
That, deep dissatisfaction with the current government (some of it justified, some of it not, in my opinion), and an economic downturn, with authoritarians rising all over the world, and Musk blatantly campaigning for AfD....things almost couldn't be going better for them.
EDIT:
This graphic is at least 7 days old. It's the projection of which party will be strongest in the various counties and cities of Germany in the election in 10 days. Shades of black are the center-right CDU (or CSU in Bavaria), shades of blue are the right/far-right AfD, red is the center-left SPD, and green is...well, the Greens - they will almost only ever win a city district.
Can you tell which areas used to be East Germany? (Racism is only part of the story here, as there are relatively few foreigners in these areas compared to most of the non-blue ones).
Crazy how divided it is still almost 40 years later.
A warning of what could happen were Korea to ever reunite...
Crazy how divided it is still almost 40 years later.
Yeah, it's nuts. Even the economic data maps look like this. The east is broke, the west is rich.
Although I guess, not that surprising. nearly a half-century of living under a USSR puppet state isn't exactly going to get fixed fast. Even 34 years later.
LeapingGnome wrote:Crazy how divided it is still almost 40 years later.
Yeah, it's nuts. Even the economic data maps look like this. The east is broke, the west is rich.
Although I guess, not that surprising. nearly a half-century of living under a USSR puppet state isn't exactly going to get fixed fast. Even 34 years later.
Somebody said that the ultimate proof of the failure of the Soviet system was that it managed to make an economic wreck out of a country full of Germans.
So, I had an interesting discussion with my wife about Germany. It was in the context of why I am so outraged with resurgent neo-Nazi popularity particularly manifest in Musk/far right US movements.
She asked, why doesn't the world hate Germany for what it did in the WW2 era yet why doesn't Japan get similar treatment?
I explained my understanding of German culture (principally what formed West Germany) and that I understand that shameful national history is something taught and instilled into the nation's psyche so as to never be forgotten and it serves as the basis upon which Germany's motivation to overcome its deeply shameful history, and is a testimony to the concept of redemption. In contrast, Japan only mourns the shame of Hiroshima and Nagasaki but does not humiliate its people with accurate history of Japanese imperial occupation and with it the atrocities committed across Asia, from the sex slaves, torture, slaughter of civilians and the treatment of captured soldiers.
This is probably the one thing that separates the European members of the EU and the US. Europe suffered so greatly from the war, and the previous world war, it has taken great strides to unify and avoid another internal conflict. The US however, despite huge sacrifices by its people, have forgotten why those wars were fought.
The UK is similar to the US in that respect. There is little reflection on the past and very little done to reverse the wounds of imperialism. One example is how long it took to return First Nations relics to Australia and in how there is no move to return pillaged relics from the burning of Beijing and the rest of China during the opium wars.
I do wonder what it will take to get America to recall the savage wounds it once bore during the civil war, which seems to have never been resolved completely and threatens to reignite with inequality creating a working slave regime which was what the nation sought to overthrow in the 1800s. Is it going to be like Europe needing two horrible wars to finally unify the nation?
I explained my understanding of German culture (principally what formed West Germany) and that I understand that shameful national history is something taught and instilled into the nation's psyche so as to never be forgotten and it serves as the basis upon which Germany's motivation to overcome its deeply shameful history, and is a testimony to the concept of redemption. In contrast, Japan only mourns the shame of Hiroshima and Nagasaki but does not humiliate its people with accurate history of Japanese imperial occupation and with it the atrocities committed across Asia, from the sex slaves, torture, slaughter of civilians and the treatment of captured soldiers.
I'm emphasizing this particular part, because I think it's rather crucial. Thinking that teaching accurate history is humiliating current populations is a grave mistake. And one that countries don't have a monopoly on. Just to touch real quick on French politics though there's little interest in them, it's one of our key failings that's impacting current diplomatic relations to this day, with Subsaharan countries and Algeria in particular right now. Glossing over the past is a costly mistake, to the detriment of all. Europe may have banded together to form the European Union in the wake of the two world wars, but we haven't entirely learned from our mistakes, clearly.
This is probably the one thing that separates the European members of the EU and the US. Europe suffered so greatly from the war, and the previous world war, it has taken great strides to unify and avoid another internal conflict. The US however, despite huge sacrifices by its people, have forgotten why those wars were fought.
Oh, we remember why we fought WW2 - Japan sneak attacked us and we wanted revenge. That's it. People can talk about "rising tensions" or "building of forces" and "economic sanctions" all they want, but the truth is that without Pearl Harbor, we might never have entered the war. In November 1941, most Americans were against us entering the war. The Japanese literally turned public opinion around overnight.
In fact, it's pretty much the exact same reason we went after Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. Seems like we remember all too well.
Cross posting from Political Newsstory thread, since it's relevant to both:
So J.D. Vance just made a crapton of friends in Europe...
German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius has heavily criticized JD Vance after the US vice president accused European governments of ignoring voter concerns on immigration and stamping down on free speech."Democracy was called into question by the US vice president for the whole of Europe earlier," Pistorius said at the Munich Security Conference. "He speaks of the annihilation of democracy. And if I have understood him correctly, he is comparing conditions in parts of Europe with those in authoritarian regions... that is not acceptable."
Pistorius accused Vance of painting a distorted picture of democracy.
Yeah, I was going to say, I hope Vance's speech convinces European leaders what they're up against now.
An audience that was largely expecting Mr. Vance to lay out the Trump administration’s priorities for the trans-Atlantic alliance, NATO military spending and negotiations with Russia over ending the war in Ukraine, instead received a lecture on what Mr. Vance described as the continent’s own failures in living up to democratic ideals.
Those failures, Mr. Vance said, included efforts to restrict so-called “misinformation” and other content on social media and laws against abortion protests that he said unfairly silenced Christians.
Perhaps most strikingly, the vice president called on Europeans to drop their opposition to working with anti-immigration parties, calling them a legitimate expression of the will of voters angered by high levels of migration over the last decade. Those parties include the Alternative for Germany, or AfD, parts of which have been classified as extremist by German intelligence.
All other parties in Germany refuse to join with the AfD in forming governments, an effort known as a “firewall” against extremism in a country where memories of the Nazis still dominate its political culture.
“There is no room for firewalls,” Mr. Vance said. He added: “If you are running in fear of your own voters, there is nothing America can do for you.”
Germany’s political class, including the conservative Christian Democrats who currently lead the polls to form the next government, has largely adopted more restrictive measures on migration in recent years, following the AfD. But they distinguish the AfD itself as extreme, because of some of its members’ history of use of Nazi language and antisemitic and racist comments, along with plots to overthrow the federal government.
Mr. Vance did not make that distinction, nor did he mention any extremist elements of anti-immigration political parties.
German leaders immediately rejected Mr. Vance’s suggestion, pointing to past AfD member comments in support of the national socialists, the party of the Nazis.
“This is our business,” said Thomas Silberhorn, a member of parliament for the Christian Social Union, the Bavarian sister party of the Christian Democrats, and a former federal defense official. “My message to the U.S. administration is: German extremists who explicitly refer to national socialism — part of the AfD — are clearly anti the U.S. that liberated us from national socialism.”
Mr. Vance also barely mentioned Ukraine, even after meeting with its president, Volodymyr Zelensky, earlier in the day. Last year at this conference, Mr. Vance, then a U.S. senator, notably refused to meet with Mr. Zelensky.
Mr. Vance’s only references to the Ukraine conflict came in passing, disappointing attendees who had hoped to learn more about the administration’s plans for peace negotiations.
Vance is essentially saying that laws that censor social media posts, or that he says have targeted Christian speech, are a larger danger to Europe than Russia or China. The room appears largely silent, and somewhat perplexed, by this opening.
He dismissed any criticism of Elon Musk’s alleged interference in European elections, saying “if American democracy can survive 10 years of Greta Thunberg’s scolding, you guys can survive a few months of Elon Musk.”
Yes, a 14-year-old girl is the same as the richest man in the world.
Vance is a duplicitous shit bag. Big surprise. The only surprise is the other countries were surprised.
In Vance’s defense, he is actively becoming an expert on annihilation of democracy.
Those failures, Mr. Vance said, included efforts to restrict so-called “misinformation” and other content on social media and laws against abortion protests that he said unfairly silenced Christians.
He said while deleting references to trans people on gov websites, schools etc.
Vance is a duplicitous shit bag. Big surprise. The only surprise is the other countries were surprised.
That's why I'm surprised! Like, why are all of these bureaucrats surprised? Are there genuinely this many politicians across the world who think that everyone, once in power, will just adhere to the way things have been for the last 60ish years?
They mean it! All of it! And now they're acting on it!
Thanks for the comments on European history and thinking!
I must confess, Australia has its own myopic views on what to teach its people. For example, we learn very little about the European theatre of conflict in WW1 and WWII beyond the country's participation in particular fights and themes. Themes for example, the Nazis are bad and propaganda is bad, the Japanese were bad and the US were our saviours. Literally, I didn't know about Anne Frank and learned about the Resistance in Europe from my own curiosity. Nor does Australia teach about Islam, or give a critical analysis of anti-Semitism from the medieval period of national funding during banking's infancy or what the crusades were really about. Another weird thing we learn little about is the Scottish and Irish hardships and oppression within England's history.
Instead, Australia has a weird white guilt approach to its history. The curriculum does touch on some government atrocities against the Australia First Nations people but lightly and without extending into a critique of disproportionate incarceration rates, alcohol abuse and other indicators of social inequality. It touches on the White Australia Policy and the existence of a large Chinese population from the gold rush era in the 1800s but instead of embracing that part of the social fabric there's still a mindset China is a bogeyman.
Eleima I'm interested in the French side of things too because my parents fled Cambodia as refugees of Chinese ethnicity and escaped the killing fields. From that diaspora quite a large part of my paternal relatives live in France. In fact it's really interesting because my father studied in university in the French language and a lot of his views in life are likely to be a blend of his southern Chinese heritage (a blend of Confucianism and Buddhism) and French colonial heritage. It's interesting that France may not look too closely into its imperialist past. One thing my father has never expressed is resentment for French colonialism in Cambodia. To the contrary, his perhaps biased view of pre-civil war Cambodia was a country of immense natural resources, prosperity and enlightenment. I say biased because my family had amassed considerable wealth before the war and my father was part of Prince Sihanouk's education ministry.
Anyway yes! I love to hear what people on the ground think because it's hard to parse just from external sources, particularly with the language barrier.
Perhaps most strikingly, the vice president called on Europeans to drop their opposition to working with anti-immigration parties, calling them a legitimate expression of the will of voters angered by high levels of migration over the last decade. Those parties include the Alternative for Germany, or AfD, parts of which have been classified as extremist by German intelligence.
All other parties in Germany refuse to join with the AfD in forming governments, an effort known as a “firewall” against extremism in a country where memories of the Nazis still dominate its political culture.
“There is no room for firewalls,” Mr. Vance said. He added: “If you are running in fear of your own voters, there is nothing America can do for you.”
Take three guesses which party Vance met with today.
An honest mistake, he thought their initials stood for Ashley furniture Deviants.
In Vance’s defense, he is actively becoming an expert on annihilation of democracy.
Those failures, Mr. Vance said, included efforts to restrict so-called “misinformation” and other content on social media and laws against abortion protests that he said unfairly silenced Christians.He said while deleting references to trans people on gov websites, schools etc.
well they were silenced fairly of course.
LeapingGnome wrote:Vance is a duplicitous shit bag. Big surprise. The only surprise is the other countries were surprised.
That's why I'm surprised! Like, why are all of these bureaucrats surprised? Are there genuinely this many politicians across the world who think that everyone, once in power, will just adhere to the way things have been for the last 60ish years?
They mean it! All of it! And now they're acting on it!
The meeting was not the first contact between the party and a figure close to Donald Trump. Elon Musk, the billionaire now leading a purge of the US federal government, has repeatedly claimed that “only the AfD can save Germany” and last month hosted Wiedel in a 75-minute live conversation on his social media platform, X.
Vance did not meet with Olaf Scholz, the German chancellor who should be among the US’ key partners in negotiations with Russia over the future of the war in Ukraine. “We don’t need to see him, he won’t be chancellor long,” one former US official told Politico of the Vance team’s approach.
.........................
German courts have ruled that the AfD can be classified as a suspected threat to democracy, paving the way for the country’s domestic intelligence agency to spy on the opposition party.
In May, the AfD was expelled from a pan-European parliamentary group of populist far-right parties after a string of controversies, including a comment by the senior AfD figure that the Nazi SS had been “not all criminals”.
In a speech likely to further drive a wedge between the US and Europe as they struggle to find a single policy on the war in Ukraine, Vance also accused the European leaders of “hiding behind ugly Soviet-era words like ‘misinformation’ and ‘disinformation’”.
When was the last time the U.S. was actively throwing its support behind one political party prior to an election of one of our long-term allies? Like, not just the AfD, was Reagan doing this for Thatcher?
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