[Discussion] European Politics Discussion

European Politics discussion

The expulsion of Russian diplomats is interesting to me. There is talk of further economic sanctions against Russia which will probably take the form of targeting individuals ability to travel and bank in EU states. Good.

However, I won't lie, it concerns me where this will go and what Putin and his allies will do to cause havoc. For example, we have a referendum in the summer on an issue that has proven to be a very emotive here and there is a distinct concern that it could be hijacked to create divisions.

Ireland has had dozens of referendums and we have developed Institutions such as the Referendum Commission having learned our lessons of how badly they can be handled. There are some in our Dail you are trying to plug the gap but the older generation just don't see the problem. I suspect something similar is occurring across the continent.

And, If anyone is concerned that I'm suggesting that people aren't entitled to their view, I'm not. We had the marriage equality referendum recently which was largely ran without anger being the prominent sentiment. Any and all views were allowed their say and as long as they felt they were heard it helped reduce the potential for acrimonious divides. The problem is our next referendum is like a box of old dynamite.

The nice thing about going after Russian individuals is that it makes it easier for powerbrokers in Moscow to cut ties (and even consolidate power away from the scapegoats), so there's less chance of a unified, formal national response.

Then again, it causes consolidation, which is sort of the wrong direction to move things, strategically.

Soros-Linked NGOs Fell Victim To A Big, Sophisticated Undercover Operation. Hungary’s Prime Minister Has Benefited The Most.

LONDON — Hungary goes to the polls Sunday after a parliamentary election campaign that has featured dirty tricks, spying allegations, damaging leaks, and a drumbeat of anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic rhetoric.

Dark electoral arts have included a host of sophisticated undercover stings targeting NGOs and individuals linked to the philanthropist George Soros, carried out by people using aliases and working for companies that do not exist.

BuzzFeed News can reveal that the stings, which preyed on seven NGOs and individuals — all but one linked to Soros — in the months leading up to the election are highly likely to have been executed by the same group.

BuzzFeed News cannot be certain what group carried out the operation, or who paid them to do so. Some of the websites created for the front companies in the operation have unusual ties to a string of sites an expert says are aimed at burnishing the online reputation of a Russian oligarch, as well as to an individual based in Israel and a web developer in Romania.

Although there is no evidence to suggest the Hungarian government’s direct involvement with the operation, it is clear who the main beneficiary is: incumbent Prime Minister Viktor Orbán and his anti-Soros agenda.

A spokesperson for the prime minister did not comment when asked via email about who may have given financial backing to the operation, and whether the government had any knowledge of, or connection to, the group secretly recording the meetings with the NGOs and then leaking them.

The spokesperson did, however, say the recordings “prove yet again what the Hungarian government has been emphasizing for long.”

'You'll be sorry,' Russia tells Britain at U.N. nerve agent attack meeting

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - Russia told Britain at the United Nations Security Council on Thursday that “you’re playing with fire and you’ll be sorry” over its accusations that Moscow was to blame for poisoning a former Russian spy and his daughter.

It was the second showdown between Russia and Britain at the world body since the March 4 nerve agent attack on Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in an English town. Russia, which requested Thursday’s council meeting, denies any involvement.

The attack has had major diplomatic ramifications, with mass expulsions of Russian and Western diplomats. The 15-member Security Council first met over the issue on March 14 at Britain’s request.

“We have told our British colleagues that ‘you’re playing with fire and you’ll be sorry’,” Russian U.N. Ambassador Vassily Nebenzia said during a more than 30-minute speech that attempted to poke holes in Britain’s allegations against Moscow.

He suggested that anyone who watched television crime shows like Britain’s ‘Midsomer Murders’ would know “hundreds of clever ways to kill someone” to illustrate the “risky and dangerous” nature of the method Britain says was used to target Skripal.

Viktor Orban presents himself as the defender of Hungary and Europe against Muslim migrants.

He hopes to win a third consecutive term as a prime minister who puts national sovereignty before everything else. But critics attack him as a racist and an authoritarian.

What will it mean for Europe if he wins again?

Prederick wrote:

'You'll be sorry,' Russia tells Britain at U.N. nerve agent attack meeting

He suggested that anyone who watched television crime shows like Britain’s ‘Midsomer Murders’ would know “hundreds of clever ways to kill someone” to illustrate the “risky and dangerous” nature of the method Britain says was used to target Skripal.

I'm confused, is he saying that some random person learned how to make a Russian chemical weapon from a crime drama?

He is saying that if Russia wanted to kill them they would have done it with an easier method.

And one less traceable to them.

Of course if they wanted to send a message, one like "traitors cannot escape our reach", then they would use something clearly but deniably Russian.

bnpederson wrote:

And one less traceable to them.

Of course if they wanted to send a message, one like "traitors cannot escape our reach", then they would use something clearly but deniably Russian.

"Implausible Deniability," and Russia has done it numerous times.

Viktor Orban victory in Hungary: German minister warns EU

A key German minister says the EU must drop its "arrogance and condescension" towards Hungary, where Eurosceptic PM Viktor Orban has just won re-election.

Interior Minister Horst Seehofer wants curbs on Muslim migration to the EU, and Mr Orban sees himself as a defender of "Christian" Europe.

It is a tense time in EU-Hungary relations, as Mr Orban is defying EU migration and rule-of-law policies.

Election monitors said the vote was marred by media bias and xenophobia.

Observers from Europe's OSCE security organisation said "voters had a wide range of political options, but intimidating and xenophobic rhetoric, media bias and opaque campaign financing constricted the space for genuine political debate".

The vote took place in an "adverse climate" and political rivals could not compete with Mr Orban on an equal basis, the OSCE said.

Mr Orban, 54, campaigned on a Eurosceptic, anti-immigration platform. His Fidesz party won a two-thirds majority in parliament, as it did in two previous elections.

Anti-EU politicians, including France's Marine Le Pen, welcomed his win.

A note of context....I am not a fan of Seehofer (former leader of the conservative Bavarian CSU sister party to Merkel's CDU which exists in all other German states), especially how he undermined Merkel behind her back over the last few years. That he is now interior minister galls me, but it was part of the price to be paid for finally getting a new federal government set up. Hopefully it's a case of "keep your enemies closer" for Merkel.

Orban apparently lost the youth vote, so at least there's that. It seems like it's once again a case of the rural areas determining the outcome of an election. Same as in the southeast US in my experience. In Alabama the larger cities were almost always blue, but the rest of the state was deep red in the presidential elections.

There are rumblings coming from Brussels that the next budget will include a process to ensure that funds are going to Member States upholding the ideals of the block and the rule of law. The budget is agreed by the parliament and is not open the vetoing you see on other issues. Expect a drum beat of these statements from Minister across Europe over the coming months.

Orban and others have made fools of the other member states, no question about it. I suspect the consensus was to wait out this election and hopefully they wouldn't have to do anything draconian. The decision has been made for them now.

Hungary: Pro-govt weekly prints list of ‘Soros mercenaries’

A Hungarian magazine published Thursday the names of more than 200 people it claimed likely were part of a group that Prime Minister Viktor Orban called “mercenaries” allegedly paid by U.S.-Hungarian billionaire George Soros to topple the government.

Those listed by the weekly Figyelo included members of rights organizations such as Amnesty International, anti-corruption watchdog Transparency International, refugee advocates, investigative journalists and faculty from the Soros-founded Central European University.

Some of the people named are dead.

Figyelo is a formerly highly respected business magazine which took on an unabashedly pro-government slant after it was acquired in December 2016 by Maria Schmidt, a historian and Orban ally. Since then, the great majority of the ads in the magazine are from the government or state-owned companies.

Orban was re-elected to a fourth term as Hungary’s leader in Sunday’s parliamentary election. A few weeks before the vote, he told a crowd of tens of thousands of supporters that, after the elections, “moral, political and legal amends” would be sought against rivals.

Macron Had a Big Plan for Europe. It’s Now Falling Apart.

BRUSSELS — Last September, the enthusiastic new French president, Emmanuel Macron, laid out big plans for the European Union, intended to give fresh spark and purpose to a bloc preoccupied with migration, populism and Britain’s exit, and to breathe new life into Franco-German leadership.

Then, as so often with the 28-nation bloc, reality and national interests got in the way. Last fall’s German election badly weakened Chancellor Angela Merkel, who needed six months to assemble a governing coalition, one that is even more wary about overhauls to the eurozone.

Last month’s Italian election gave the upper hand to populist, Euroskeptic parties that want to abandon pension changes and expand Italy’s worrisome national debt, adding to German jitters.

So after all the hoopla, Mr. Macron’s proposed overhaul has been gutted. If not “as dead as a dormouse,” as the German weekly Der Spiegel opined before his visit to Berlin on Thursday, his European initiatives have been heavily watered down, like the small glass of red wine French parents give to children.

And for fans of Europe, that’s too bad.

The window for meaningful changes is rapidly closing before next year’s elections for a new European Parliament, and the choices of a new European Commission, European Commission president and head of the European Central Bank. Projects and legislation not approved by June or by latest October will fall by the wayside until 2020.

Just to offer a counterpoint to the article, Pred, I think the headline is a little overly dramatic. As a citizen of one the smaller countries who are slowing down his reform I'd agree with the Finnish PM in the last paragraph of the article:

“Macron and Merkel get along well, respect one another, are both pro-European and ambitious,” he said. “Both want to leave a mark on Europe. I see Macron as pragmatic, setting his priorities for the future, but it doesn’t mean every detail must be done.”

That would echo Irish politicians view generally, for example.

I might add that I don't see how European elections are going to change this radically. Sure the Commission is changing but I find it hard to see one directly opposed to French/German ambitions.

No, parents don’t give small watered down glasses of red wine to their children.
Yes, that’s my main takeaway from the article.
*Sigh* don’t mind me, I’m exhausted.

Germany and Immigration - The Changing Face of the Country

Close to 40 percent of the mothers who give birth at Mariahilf were born outside of Germany. Harburg, where the hospital is located, is neither one of Hamburg's more prosperous areas nor is it particularly poor. The statistics are similar at many other big city hospitals around the country. In many parts of Germany, obstetrics has become a multicultural career field, with the unique challenges that come along with it.

The latest numbers from the Federal Statistical Office show that almost every fourth child born in Germany in 2016 had a foreign mother. Female immigrants are indeed contributing significantly to the fact that Germany's birth rate is rising again. Already today, one out of five people living in the country has immigrant roots.

Germany has obviously become a country of immigration - and one that is changing rapidly. And although economists and politicians are fond of emphasizing all the positive aspects of this development - Germany's aging society, for example, has been an issue for decades - there's also a large segment of society that is anything but pleased by the development.

These people are asking themselves what their heimat, or homeland, will look like in 10, 20 or 30 years. They harbor doubts that the government is able to solve the problems already arising out from the lack of integration among some immigrant groups. Some fear that German Chancellor Angela Merkel is leading the country toward a bleak future with an aimless immigration policy - a policy that allows migrants to come to Germany and apply for asylum rather than a policy that actively seeks to bring in highly skilled workers. A policy that ultimately means that even those whose asylum applications are rejected are ultimately allowed to stay anyway.

Such fears of uncontrolled migration are nothing new. They helped catapult populist German politician Thilo Sarrazin's 2010 book "Deutschland schafft sich ab," which can perhaps best be translated as "Germany Is Doing Away With Itself" to the top of the best-seller lists. But at the time when Sarrazin was promoting his theories about Muslim immigrants' fondness for procreation, only 40,000 new asylum-seekers were entering Germany each year. At the peak of the refugee crisis in 2015, that many people were arriving in the country within just a few days.

Since then, just under 1.4 million refugees have arrived in Germany. One indication of how deeply the anger and rage are simmering in many people is the dangerous power of the conspiracy theory which holds that the chancellor, together with other sinister powers, is planning to swap out the ethnic German population and replace it with foreigners. Michael Butter, a professor of American Studies at the University of Tübingen, who is also an expert in conspiracy theories, says it is currently one of the most popular conspiracy theories circulating in Germany right now.

Part of the reason it became so popular is that society, politicians and the media haven't discussed some of the developments openly and factually - at times out of fear of playing into the hands of xenophobes. Too often, the debate is driven by people more focused on showing off their own worldliness and tolerance than actually addressing the problems. But hopes that the conflicts created through poorly managed immigration might somehow disappear behind the optimism have been dashed.

Large segments of the German population are suffering from a kind of stress relating to identity. Germans without any immigration background in their own families fear that immigrants could strip them of their Heimat, their sense of home. At the same time, Germans with immigrant backgrounds feel marginalized and foreign. But it's an altogether different phenomenon for refugees arriving here. When they think about home, it tends to be the one they just lost.

Smothered by Smog, Polish Cities Rank Among Europe’s Dirtiest

ZAR MOUNTAIN, Poland — High atop the ski lift at Zar Mountain in southern Poland, the villages below disappear. At first, they seem obscured by morning fog. But the yellow haze does not lift. It hangs heavy, the contrast with the white snow making it clear that something is off.

What is off is the air. Poland has some the most polluted air in all of the European Union, and 33 of its 50 dirtiest cities. Not even mountain retreats are immune.

The problem is largely a result of the country’s love affair with coal. Like elsewhere in Poland, most of the homes in the villages below Zar Mountain are still heated by coal. Some 19 million people rely on coal for heat in winter. In all of the European Union, 80 percent of private homes using coal are in Poland.

Coal, commonly referred to as “black gold,” is seen as a patriotic alternative to Russian gas in this country, which broke away from Soviet control three decades ago and remains deeply suspicious of its neighbor to the east. Burning coal is part of daily life.

Many street corners, near bus and tram stops, feature containers known as braziers that burn coke, a coal derivative that is chiefly carbon. On a recent morning in Swietochlowice, to the north, children threw in sticks and paper, sucking in the fumes.

This is a tangent, but I find it endlessly interesting that, at least as far as I can see, a significant part of the rise of nationalist far-right politics in Poland and the Ukraine is driven by historical dislike of Russia.

Isn't that pretty much always the case in any country with immigration? The immigrants stick together in little communities, and then their children integrate. And then their children and grandchildren are pretty close to native. It seems like you could take that article and write it about many many countries over the past 150 years.

Eleima wrote:

No, parents don’t give small watered down glasses of red wine to their children.
Yes, that’s my main takeaway from the article.
*Sigh* don’t mind me, I’m exhausted.

You've just blown my mind. This is accepted as fact in the English speaking world.

That's weird. How did that "fact" come about?

I hear Napoleon was a shorty, too.

And, come on... they don't water it down, duh.

Spoiler:

He was, apparently, of perfectly average height.

And, I don't actually believe the wine one either.

slazev wrote:

That's weird. How did that "fact" come about?

I have no idea how it came about, but I have definitely heard it multiple times before myself, usually in discussions of how to prevent/reduce underage drinking or whether the legal drinking age should be lowered.

Ferret wrote:
slazev wrote:

That's weird. How did that "fact" come about?

I have no idea how it came about, but I have definitely heard it multiple times before myself, usually in discussions of how to prevent/reduce underage drinking or whether the legal drinking age should be lowered.

I have as well. I think I even heard it in my French class in high school, but that was so long ago I haven't a clue how true it is.

I was told that historically the French would dilute pretty much all the wine they were drinking during the day with water. That drinking wine at full strength was saved until the evening or special occasions. Then also historically you had a lax attitude towards younger people drinking in general, so the story goes that Victorian English person sees a teenager drinking watered down wine at lunch and assumes that it's because he's a teenager that the wine is watered down rather than everyone is drinking watered down wine at lunch.

Of course at this time, 18th/19th century, English teenagers are drinking small beer. Even people who were teetotal for religious reasons, like the Quakers, drank small beer (under 3% ABV) and didn't think anything of it at the time.

P.S. I've done a little bit of googling to see if I could source this but nothing, so you might want to take it all of that with a grain of salt.

DoveBrown wrote:

I was told that historically the French would dilute pretty much all the wine they were drinking during the day with water. That drinking wine at full strength was saved until the evening or special occasions. Then also historically you had a lax attitude towards younger people drinking in general, so the story goes that Victorian English person sees a teenager drinking watered down wine at lunch and assumes that it's because he's a teenager that the wine is watered down rather than everyone is drinking watered down wine at lunch.

Of course at this time, 18th/19th century, English teenagers are drinking small beer. Even people who were teetotal for religious reasons, like the Quakers, drank small beer (under 3% ABV) and didn't think anything of it at the time.

P.S. I've done a little bit of googling to see if I could source this but nothing, so you might want to take it all of that with a grain of salt.

My theory is that it’s a confluence of 18th century British puritanical attitudes and classic British hatred of the French (i.e. socially acceptable racism). Because we all know that the French are immoral, right, and drinking is immoral, so of course the French give booze to their kids. Tally-ho, pip-pip, cheerio.*adjusts monocle*

IIRC wine was originally made quite differently in the ancient world (Greece, Rome, the levant). It was stronger and often much, much sweeter than we would be used to today. In that period diluting wine was just the way it was drunk as it would be more palatable and as a staple drink it would also moderate the extent to which people got drunk during the day. Roman wines around 200BC would be diluted to between 1:2 and 1:4 and in social/festive occasions someone would be nominated as the drinking master and it was their responsibility how dilute to make the wine (in turn dictating how drunk everyone would get over the course of the evening).

By the time you get to the Modern period wines are much as they are today with little or no need of dilution.

At a guess I'd assume that this historical knowledge is the source of the notion that people (in France) typically diluted their wine. But that has probably not actually been true for 600 years.

DanB wrote:

IIRC wine was originally made quite differently in the ancient world (Greece, Rome, the levant). It was stronger and often much, much sweeter than we would be used to today. In that period diluting wine was just the way it was drunk as it would be more palatable and as a staple drink it would also moderate the extent to which people go drunk during the day. Roman wines around 200BC would be diluted to between 1:2 and 1:4 and in social/festive occasions someone would be nominated as the drinking master and it was their responsibility how dilute to make the wine (in turn dictating how drunk everyone would get over the course of the evening).

By the time you get to the Modern period wines are much as they are today with little or no need of dilution.

At a guess I'd assume that this historical knowledge is the source of the notion that people (in France) typically diluted their wine. But that has probably not actually been true for 600 years.

Aww. Next you'll tell me that the standard bottle of wine isn't 750ml because that how much a French man was expected to drink on his lunch break.

The thing is wine is typically 12-14% ABV these days and the most it can be is roughly 20% because over that percentage the bacteria die. So with a 1 to 4 dilution you're looking at most a 5% ABV drink.

Basque separatist group ETA announces its dissolution

After 60 years of violence and more than 800 deaths, the basque separatist group ETA has formally announced its dissolution. Three past leaders of the group read a statement confirming it would cease its activities and dissolve.

Eta: Disbandment won't change our policy says Spain's Rajoy

Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy says there will be no impunity for Eta, despite the separatist group's announcement that it is disbanding.

In an audio statement provided to the BBC, the Basque organisation said it had ceased all political activity.

It first announced it was disbanding in a letter to Basque organisations that was leaked on Wednesday.

Eta killed more than 800 people during its decades-long campaign of violence. It declared a ceasefire in 2011.

The audio statement made available to the BBC was delivered by Josu Ternera, the separatists' former military leader who is still on the run.

In what he describes as a "final statement to the Basque Country" he says the group's "journey has ended".

Eta says:

- It has "completely dismantled all of its structures"
- It will "no longer express political positions, promote initiatives or interact with other actors"
- Former members "will continue the struggle for a reunited, independent, socialist, Basque-speaking and non patriarchal Basque Country"

Eta, which began its campaign in 1968, is considered a terrorist organisation by the European Union.

Italy’s Populist Victory Is Both Tragedy and Farce

PARIS—Will a certain dream of Europe end with a bang or a whimper, with a calamity or a thousand paper cuts, with a grand dramatic moment or a tawdry local melodrama? That’s the question that has been swirling around in Europe ever since two populist, Euroskeptic parties triumphed in Italy’s national elections in March. The vote failed to produce a solid majority, plunging the country into weeks of confusing backroom negotiations that have made serious people despair and markets tremble. But this week, the anti-establishment Five-Star Movement and anti-immigrant League party, which joined together in an unsettling marriage of convenience last week, announced they’d picked Giuseppe Conte, an unknown lawyer, law professor and expert in “de-bureaucratization,” to be prime minister. On Wednesday, after weeks of twists and turns, Italian president Sergio Mattarella gave Conte a mandate to form a government. The deal isn’t entirely sealed and the government must pass a confidence vote in Parliament, but that’s likely to happen since the two parties have a majority, however slim.

It wasn’t always clear Conte would make it. No sooner was he named than a scandal broke over whether he had inflated his CV, claiming to have studied at New York University, the Sorbonne, and Cambridge University, but lacked formal affiliations. After The New York Times spotted the NYU inconsistency, the Five-Star Movement later clarified that he’d gone to New York “to perfect his English language legal skills.” The leader of the Five-Star Movement, Luigi di Maio, decried the “unprecedented attacks” on Conte from the foreign and Italian mainstream media, and the attacks played to his anti-establishment base. It was yet another turn in an unfolding drama that’s at once tragedy and farce.

The writer Ennio Flaiano once remarked that, “In Italy, the political situation is grave but never serious.” That line, however clever and true it may have been, may no longer apply. Something genuinely distressing is happening here. For all Conte’s talk of solidifying Italy’s place in Europe, as he said in his first public remarks on Wednesday evening, the fact is Italian voters issued the most resounding rebuke of the establishment in the country’s postwar history. Most opted for one of two parties: The Five-Star Movement, a protest movement that entered Parliament for the first time in 2013 and this time around carried the entire Italian south, and a far-right anti-immigrant party, the League, which carried its traditional base in northern Italy. The League’s leader, Matteo Salvini, is likely to be the next interior minister.

This radical political situation—Conte on Wednesday said he’d be leading “a government of change”—comes with the policies to match. The government platform calls for the expulsion of 500,000 migrants who’ve entered Italy illegally in recent years—as well as a flat tax, a basic income for Italians below a certain financial threshold, lowering the retirement age, and lifting European sanctions on Russia. It also calls for subsidies for “Italian families” to send their children to kindergarten, though it’s unclear whether that includes or excludes legal residents who don’t have Italian citizenship.

The dam has broken. It may not be the end of the European Union as we know it, but the advent of a populist, Euroskeptic government in a founding member state of the European Union and the euro may be a point of no return. The platform doesn’t call for pulling out of either the European Union or the euro, but it does call for renegotiating Italy’s relationship within the European Union, inasmuch as that’s possible under European treaties. And so the Eurocrats—and the editorial writers of every leading mainstream European publication—are right to be worried. The populists won this election telling Italians to stop being pushed around by undemocratic unelected officials in Brussels. They decry Brussels as the great finger-wagger, the remover of national sovereignty that they’re so eager to restore.

This government, if it’s installed, was democratically elected, the fruit of genuine anger and resentment in a country that has seen years of economic stagnation. Some Italians also feel abandoned by a European Union that left their country to contend on its own with hundreds of thousands of migrants. And they have allies across Europe. It’s not surprising that in a recent interview with the Turin daily La Stampa, Nigel Farage, the pro-Brexit campaigner, expressed his glee at Italy’s likely governing coalition. Marine Le Pen has tweeted her support, saying that after the rise to power of the right-wing Freedom Party in Austria, she was heartened by the League’s likely ascent.

The League’s Salvini, for one, returns the affection—he expresses his admiration for Le Pen and for Victor Orbán, the soft autocrat governing Hungary. Salvini also speaks of Italy as a hellish country in terms that echo Trump’s inaugural address. In a Facebook Live video this week, Salvini called Italy a country of “instability, fear, and anti-depressants.” He has also said that he’s not Superman, Batman, or Robin.

Ironically, both the Five Star Movement and the League have railed for years against “technocrats” who foisted economic reforms on Italy, only to choose a previously unelected law professor to lead the government. Also, half of this anti-establishment government is, in fact, the establishment. The League is actually the longest-existing party on the Italian political scene, having been founded in 1987. It called for years for the secession of swaths of northern Italy around the Po River. Its scope “now reaches far beyond the Po and replaces Odin with Orbán in its pantheon and Rome with Brussels as the enemy,” as the commentator Ezio Mauro wrote recently in La Repubblica. The League served in multiple governments led by former Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, who spent the campaign railing against the Five-Star Movement but ultimately gave his default blessing to the coalition.

Italy is a highly complex country in which deeply embedded, neo-feudal power networks intersect with political currents in ways that have long defied the right-versus-left divide that makes other European countries far more straightforward. But what’s unique about this new Italian coalition and makes it unprecedented in Italian political history is that it scrambles the traditional divide between opposition and majority. Instead of an opposition party using anti-establishment rhetoric to win a majority, today’s Italian populists believe the establishment per se is “an intractable ‘caste’” whose power should be reigned in, as Nadia Urbinati, a political science professor at Columbia University, wrote recently in La Repubblica.

Italy’s election results and this populist coalition have sprung from a crisis of both Italy’s and Europe’s making, one that combines homegrown political disarray, corruption, and miscalculations along with the complexities of eurozone economics. What we’re seeing in Italy today is the end of a chapter that began in 1992 with the collapse of Italy’s post-war political order and eventually gave rise to Berlusconi, who alone dominated the center-right for decades, even after he was forced to resign as prime minister in 2011 at the height of the euro crisis, making it impossible for Italy to have a “normal” center-right akin to those in France and Germany. It also owes something to the center-left Democratic Party leader Matteo Renzi, whose efforts to make fundamental changes to Italy as prime minister from 2014 until 2016 made him unpopular with voters. (Another irony: the same voters who now want change apparently didn’t want the changes Renzi was pushing while in power.) Renzi’s imperious style has made him unpopular inside the Democratic Party, weakening it ahead of elections.

But no matter how poorly the mainstream parties played their own political hands, there’s a bigger shift here, and it’s maybe about revenge. A decade since the start of the euro crisis, many citizens in Italy find the economic situation too complex to understand, but they do understand that their salaries have barely risen in two decades, that they have to move abroad to find work if they’re ambitious, or, if they live in the South, resign themselves to the fact that there may actually never be jobs, hence the desire for a basic income. They wanted something different. They wanted to vote out their leaders. No matter that the new leaders may be even worse than the old ones.