[Discussion] What comes next? Liber-all

American liberals and progressives now face their biggest challenge in a generation: What do we do with 4 years of a trump presidency, a republican congress, a likely conservative supreme court and most states under complete republican control?

This thread is not meant as a forum for discussing HOW or WHY democrats got destroyed in the 2016 election. It's meant for finding a way forward.

strangederby wrote:

The thing that makes me dispair is that facts and evidence have now been proven to be useless. Both in the U.S. and in the U.K.

I don't think that is true. There is a subset of people who are ignoring facts, or more appropriately deciding on their own facts.

For example over the weekend there was a news piece where they were interviewing people in Kentucky coal country. Most of these people are relying on the ACA for their healthcare (one guy was getting $6,000 worth of drugs paid by the state each month) and all of them were fine with that repeal of the ACA because they believed that Obama waged a "war on coal" and caused them to lose their jobs.

So if after these four years of Garbage Person 45 nothing has changed the facts have not changed - coal will not have come back because market forces etc. This person may have no healthcare due to a repeal and replace. Some of these people may go back to the well of Obama and HRC no matter how illogical; but some (and enough) will notice that their position is worse and blame the people in charge.

There is already evidence of this in the same coal areas (I note coal because there has been a wealth of reporting on the populations of these areas - I also have relatives that live in these areas). An NPR report shows that people are realizing the problem. Obama's Clean Power plan was stopped by 45, but the plan had funds to bring renewable energy jobs to these mining areas - now the that safety net is gone. Coal will go away, the plans to encourage renewable energy jobs is now gone, the safety net is gone, etc.

A lot of people in the US are getting educated on US domestic policy. Medicaid has been sold to people on the right as something "the other" takes advantage of (and yes this is selling racism to mostly rural areas) but now that it is close to being eliminated (mostly) people are seeing that a lot of programs benefit them either through veteran care, school nurses, disability care, etc. People were thinking that they were going to take away entitlements from "the other" but theirs are going to be cut. They believed a lie and now they may suffer for it - who to blame?

Flintheart Glomgold wrote:

They believed a lie and now they may suffer for it - who to blame?

They're part of the party of Personal Responsibility (TM), so their ignorant, racist asses are to blame.

Seriously.

Roger Ailes didn't hold a gun to their head and force them to watch Fox News. They repeatedly chose to watch Fox News (and reject all other media sources) because their ignorant, racists views were parroted back to them and it made them feel good.

Nor did Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, Alex Jones, and many, many others hold a gun to their heads and make them listen to endless hours of right wing talk radio. Those people made an active choice to fill their heads and hearts with misinformation and fear.

OG_slinger wrote:

They're part of the party of Personal Responsibility (TM), so their ignorant, racist asses are to blame.

Seriously.

Roger Ailes didn't hold a gun to their head and force them to watch Fox News. They repeatedly chose to watch Fox News (and reject all other media sources) because their ignorant, racists views were parroted back to them and it made them feel good.

Nor did Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, Alex Jones, and many, many others hold a gun to their heads and make them listen to endless hours of right wing talk radio. Those people made an active choice to fill their heads and hearts with misinformation and fear.

I think enough people can think for themselves to break out. yes some people will do the same thing forever, but others may need to do it a dozen times. I'm not expecting everyone to ask themselves if they are following the right leaders, I'm believing that enough will to marginalize ones who continue.

EDIT: I don't have faith in all people, just enough people.

I think enough people can think for themselves to break out.

For them to break out, they'd need to live in reality. They no longer do. They live in a world where Obama's Economy was basically a wasteland while Trump's (after enacting basically 0 economic policy) is somehow amazing and saving us all.

We now live in a world where enough people listen to Alex Jones and act on his bullsh*t that NASA had to explain that there was not a child sex slave harem on a planet no one has been to yet.

Like, I don't think they break out when they're living a world that isn't reality anymore.

I'd like to think we could "save" some of those people, but when so many of them are buying into the bullsh*t because it tells them at least half of Americans are subhuman leeches (Oh my god, almost all of them have refrigerators? RAGERAGERAGE)... what's even left to save? I dunno.

Demosthenes wrote:
I think enough people can think for themselves to break out.

For them to break out, they'd need to live in reality. They no longer do. They live in a world where Obama's Economy was basically a wasteland while Trump's (after enacting basically 0 economic policy) is somehow amazing and saving us all.

Listening to many 45 voters they do not see economic policies now - they see that he "will" enact economic policies. In three years if they are worse off then many will stop supporting him. His approval ratings bear this out; he's under 40% and more importantly his die hard support is about 25% (which is likely a floor). This garbage person won by about 80,000 votes and in the past 7 months has he added any voters? Likely not. Has he lost voters, without a doubt.

Unfortunately my honest speculation is that he may try to start a war with Iran "Wag the Dog" style to try and get support.

You misunderstand, FG.

8 months ago, we were in economic collapse with 30%+ unemployment according to many Trump voters. Now we're at the actual unemployment numbers. What changed for them? Literally the dude sitting in the seat and that's about it.

They believed the economy was 10x worse than it actually was and it only got better because Obama was gone and Trump was in in spite of nothing having happened during the time of that shift that would have caused a drop in unemployment that extreme.

Like, sure, SOME of his voters might be shifting away as they realize things aren't actually getting any better and may actually get worse for them... but I'm not holding out much hope that they'll learn anything from this.

Yeah unfortunatly it's too late. Thanks to years of right wing scaremongering and fox news lies we are well past the point of no return.

strangederby wrote:

Case in point.

New Florida law lets any resident challenge what’s taught in science classes

We are way past the looking glass.

Alternative headline: Florida Man Attempts to Murder Science

This is going to cost that state a ton of money on litigation alone.

I'm really looking forward to the book burnings.

Americans are so stupid and full of ourselves. We can't even trust that someone else knows more than we do.

oilypenguin wrote:

Americans are so stupid and full of ourselves. We can't even trust that someone else knows more than we do.

And Britain seems hell bent on matching that stupidity in different but equally destructive ways.

A ray of light: Democrats picked up a House and Senate seat in Oklahoma special election yesterday.

In both cases the Democratic candidates experienced double-digit increases in the number of votes they received.

Daily Kos wrote:

Last November, Democrat Karen Gaddis pulled just 40 percent of the vote in House District 75, while Clinton won just 36 percent.

Tuesday, Gaddis won with 52 percent.

In the last election in Senate District 44 (2014), the Democrat earned just 42 percent of the vote, and Clinton won just 37 percent here in 2016.

Tuesday, Democrat Michael Brooks-Jimenez won with almost 55 percent.

That's an Oklahoma *state* Senate seat. You about gave me a heart attack lol.

Robear wrote:

That's an Oklahoma *state* Senate seat. You about gave me a heart attack lol.

Don't poo on the party, this is big for us.
*EDIT*
It's very relevant to the state's budget crisis b/c Fallin decided that we needed to have lower Oil and Natural Gas taxes than all the other petro states and then the market tanked.

Indeed, if those kinds of results could be replicated in state governments across the country it'd be very good news.

The major takeaway for the special elections to date is that regardless of who won they all swung bigly towards Democrats. That means the 2018 midterms are going to be very interesting.

Robear wrote:

That's an Oklahoma *state* Senate seat. You about gave me a heart attack lol.

Having a democrat anywhere near an oklahoma seat is kind of a big deal - it's a state that is redder than Texas, quite honestly. At the moment, state senate seats, hell, any seats in government that go to a democrat in an overwhelmingly red state, district, or city is a big deal - it shows the status quo isn't working anymore. That people are voting for their welfare (dirty word!) as opposed to the propaganda that has been shoveled down their throats.

So here's last week's piece about Chapo Traphouse and the dirtbag left.

I think it goes nicely with what happened in the 45's administration thread this afternoon.

oilypenguin wrote:

So here's last week's piece about Chapo Traphouse and the dirtbag left.

I think it goes nicely with what happened in the 45's administration thread this afternoon.

I've been enjoying Chapo a great deal, but I take it with a mountain of salt. I try to wash it down with an episode of The Editors from the National Review to temper my enthusiasm.

I do think it's funny to see the establishment attacking the podcast. I actually view the rise of Chapo as a hopeful development, which indicates that millineals are becoming more politically active and less tolerant of the old status quo.

oilypenguin wrote:

So here's last week's piece about Chapo Traphouse and the dirtbag left.

I think it goes nicely with what happened in the 45's administration thread this afternoon.

Thanks for posting this. The author was far more articulate at expressing himself than I was.

It really disturbs me when the so called left engages in these behaviors. They aren't merely tactics to be used separately from some message.

I firmly believe you are what you do. Your tactics aren't separate from your principles. They are instead an outgrowth of them. Once one becomes convinced dominance politics is ok, you've changed your principles.

Or for the meme-lovers:
Those who play with the devil's toys will be brought by degrees to wield his sword.

These Chapo folks seem to be playing with fire and I don't think this ends well for them.

The democrat establishment....

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/28M63Gb.png?1)

Is this the end of satire? Or will we realize that there is many tiers of rhetoric that work in concert.

Satire has been an essential part of change for centuries. It doesn't work alone, but it's a useful tool.

Ugg I'm seeing the slide. An activist I used to work with posted a bunch of stats trying to prove that "Single Payer" would win every election (80+ % support among all Americans was the claim). I asked for a source and said if that was true then I would use it too - instead I was attacked for even questioning a source, called a "Neo-Liberal Ass Hole." I was even more surprised that there were others defending him.

I'm sick enough of it that I've been sitting out the summer from any type of activism. Too recently I've been attacked by people claiming Bernie as their savior for living in the suburbs, making a good wage, and being "pro-Israel." I was hoping that it would all flame out and move back towards hitting the right but I'm not seeing that anymore.

We lack a unifying voice. Bernie isn't doing it.

We need someone to stand up and say, "HERE. The fight is HERE. Our differences can wait."

It's not there. It's certainly not the party.

oilypenguin wrote:

We lack a unifying voice. Bernie isn't doing it.

We need someone to stand up and say, "HERE. The fight is HERE. Our differences can wait."

It's not there. It's certainly not the party.

I would be shocked to ever see such a unifying voice. That whole saying about herding cats didn't come out of the void. It's why the fascists and authoritarians have things so much easier when it comes to unification.

The thing I love about Chapo and its ilk is that they're getting loud enough that the next generation can no longer be completely ignored, as that hit piece in the New Republic makes clear. What's the old saying: "first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win?"

I reckon Chapo is up to "laugh at" (not "laugh with," which is what they're actually going for of course) when it comes to the Democratic old guard and its propaganda arms. Socialism is still a joke to the neoliberal power brokers, but at least it's a joke that they're laughing at now, rather than completely ignoring.

Chapo isn't going to make everybody "woke" singlehandedly and it's not really the hero we need right now, but their rising popularity signals a change in the wind of some sort.

People laughed at Jill Stein, too.

bekkilyn wrote:
oilypenguin wrote:

We lack a unifying voice. Bernie isn't doing it.

We need someone to stand up and say, "HERE. The fight is HERE. Our differences can wait."

It's not there. It's certainly not the party.

I would be shocked to ever see such a unifying voice. That whole saying about herding cats didn't come out of the void. It's why the fascists and authoritarians have things so much easier when it comes to unification.

Yeah, maybe we should realize that we'll never be as united as Republicans. Republicans have been successful because they've been engaged in white identity politics under a bunch of stolen euphemisms. Their return to power came when they folded in Reagan Democrats by finally accepting the Irish/Italian/Polish/etc. in as being white (combined with a bunch of own goals from our side). We can't engage in the kind of assimilation they did.

We also can't say to the non-white, non-male non-etc. members of our coalition that our differences can wait, and that the fight is anywhere other than where they feel it is. Maybe we just manage as best we can until Demographics Are Destiny and stop looking for the proverbial silver bullet.

Jayhawker wrote:

People laughed at Jill Stein, too.

Which is part of why we got Donald Trump.

The Democrats will laugh all the way to extinction at this rate. Ignore a large chunk of potential voters at your own peril.

No, no, no. We got Donald Trump because not even 5% of Republicans could be bothered to vote their conscience instead of party. Just because Democrats are having to deal with that fall out and Republicans unwillingness to stop this madness despite continual degradation of human rights, health and the well being of the country, doesn't shift the blame to the Democrats. I think Democrats are too caught up in dealing with their imperfectness to take strong stands FOR things that will counter the Trumpian things they cry AGAINST.

Hilary and the Democrats did make a mistake in not reaching out to working class voters but that is only 1 or 2 of the 10 contributing factors in electing Trump. And I certainly believe that the other 8 contributing factors are not only stronger in number but severity.