[Discussion] The Donald Trump Administration

Let's follow and discuss what our newest presidential administration gets up to, the good, the bad, the lawsuits.

oilypenguin wrote:
Shadout wrote:
oilypenguin wrote:

Y'all worry too much.

He's an outsider. He's going to #draintheswamp.

He's going to completely change his planned healthcare adjustments to adhere to republican convention.

So if I understand this correctly, they pretty much combine the worst parts of Trumps plans with the worst parts of republican plans, removing the few positive things you can sometimes find in Trumps policy plans (since he seems to take ideas from lots of different places all at once).

Correct!

He won't be what his supporters thought he'd be.

At all.

I am willing to bet there will be some reluctant anti-trump allies sooner rather than later.

Probably later. One thing I've noticed with Brexit is no matter how dire and idiotic withdrawing from the EU looks (and it looks increasingly nuts with every passing day) the Brexiteers just dig their heels in deeper, insisting that everything will fix itself after Article 50 is declared because we have the EU over a barrel (we REALLY don't) that "the majority has spoken" (it hasn't) and ALL the post referendum problems are caused by "crybaby Remainers" bringing the country down...somehow....

So I wouldn't necessarily assume that Trump voters will be quick to see the light and when they do see problems, that they attribute them to the correct source.

I've got a ton of faith in Trump's and the Republican's ability to successfully deflect blame to everyone but themselves. A lot of their supporters will buy into that 100%, because accepting that the people they put into office are screwing things up for them means accepting that they got taken for a ride and fell for the con. A lot of people would rather double down on their belief in the con artist than admit they fell for a con. This is going to be a terrifying thing in four years.

Chaz wrote:

I've got a ton of faith in Trump's and the Republican's ability to successfully deflect blame to everyone but themselves. A lot of their supporters will buy into that 100%, because accepting that the people they put into office are screwing things up for them means accepting that they got taken for a ride and fell for the con. A lot of people would rather double down on their belief in the con artist than admit they fell for a con. This is going to be a terrifying thing in four years.

8+ years of history. You don't need faith, you have the evidence.

The evidence is what gives me faith. I need something that's stronger than "belief" and not quite "certainty", because sh*t, we're through the looking glass here.

Chaz wrote:

The evidence is what gives me faith. I need something that's stronger than "belief" and not quite "certainty", because sh*t, we're through the looking glass here.

I believe the word you're looking for is theory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scient...

This probably needs to be pinned to the original post or something:

https://trumptracker.github.io/

Can do. That's going to be brutal.

Anyone else reading this thread title in the scary voice from the "Adams Administration" number from Hamilton?

Both of my political thread titles are barely contained Hamilton references.

Now I want to start a thread about military spending and/or firearm control just so I can call it "Guns & Ships".

Chaz wrote:

Anyone else reading this thread title in the scary voice from the "Adams Administration" number from Hamilton?

Every. Time. Well done, oily!

SillyRabbit wrote:
Chaz wrote:

Anyone else reading this thread title in the scary voice from the "Adams Administration" number from Hamilton?

Every. Time. Well done, oily!

Likewise.

I'm just waiting (hoping) to see who will play the part of the uncut lyrics of that song.

Sit down, Don, you tiny handed mother f*cker.

oilypenguin wrote:

When the only punishment is bad press and a good chunk of people actively deny that wrongdoing took place, what can we do? Our government has been taken and there seems to be no punishment for breaking the rules we had in place.

To me, this is at the heart of the issue, and not enough is being paid attention to it. It’s something that has been bothering me for some time, which is this big ball of complete indecision and wilful ignorance that seems to have left people completely unengaged, something backed up in the fact that apparently almost half of the US didn’t even vote at all….this seems like it should be a much greater concern than the tiny percentage who voted for a third candidate.

I’ve been concerned for years of everyone being pummelled with messages promoting complete ambivalence. Everything from The Daily Show to insipid daytime talk shows to South Park pushed a narrative that anybody who is passionate about anything is a lunatic who deserves to be laughed at. It doesn’t help that the only opinions that gets any attention are at the extremes: I see a lot of articles about what Michael Moore or Ann Coulter have to say then anyone you would consider a moderate conservative or liberal. Likewise, it seems like every single issue is denounced as being from the reactionary right or the loonie left. This is further enforced by a media that – for all the claims about how partisan it has become – continues to portray most issues as a political one with two sides deserving of equal weight and consideration.

I’ve noticed this blasé attitude a lot recently. Anytime a protest happens in my city – it doesn’t matter who or what it is for - the kneejerk response is the people doing it are spoiled brats who need to shut up and go away. When I posted articles of discussion during the last Canadian federal election on social media, the most common response other than “I don’t want to think about politics…ever” was something along the lines of “Sorry, but is that on the party’s official website, I don’t trust media bias”. It didn’t matter if I pointed out that there were multiple sources cited in the article, or even if there was unedited video attached. If it’s not on the official website of the political party involved, they refuse to acknowledge the politician ever said it.

At least in the parts of the internet I frequented, this carried on even to the US election. It didn’t matter if it was an evangelical Christian or a conservative blogger like Andrew Sullivan expressing concern about Trump’s behaviour or someone who literally lived under Putin or Mussolini or Castro pointing out shocking similarities. They are are dismissed in the comments as being hyperbolic. Over the past few days, the most shocking thing to me isn’t the divisive politics, but instead most people in my Facebook feed taking any news with a frighteningly non-plussed stance on literally everything. News that Trump plans to back out of any climate change agreements? It doesn’t really matter to them because they don’t really have a side on whether climate change is real. Trump is thinking about leading a new 9/11 investigation? It doesn’t really matter to them because they don’t really have a side on whether 9/11 was an inside job or not.

We’re already seeing so many governments turn isolationist and nationalistic and it soon becomes just another day like anyone else. In Canada, it was recently discovered that one of our Intelligence organizations was caught illegally retaining information they were supposed to destroy, and then lied to the courts that already forbid them from doing it. The government’s response was to enact legislation that made these actions legal. Likewise, a police force was discovered spying on a journalist’s phone calls for seven months, and don’t seem to have a convincing story as to why they did that. On a national scale, these didn’t seem to register a blip of interest compared to the some politician overpaying for their lunch one day.

I’m worried that Trump will be like Berlusconi or Putin, removing regulations and other barriers, leading to economic benefits at least in the short term, and it’ll be enough for anything unconstitutional or fraudulent to be swept under the rug with the “everyone’s a little corrupt” and “at least it’s better than before” position by a general populace. I’m worried that what is happening in the US and Europe eventually happening here, and there are signs that it might. I’m worried that we are on the brink of being under a authoritarian government, and news of its arrival will be met with a shrug.

kuddles wrote:

I’ve noticed this blasé attitude a lot recently. Anytime a protest happens in my city – it doesn’t matter who or what it is for - the kneejerk response is the people doing it are spoiled brats who need to shut up and go away.

Happens *every* time there are any sort of protest going on around my area. There are some anti-Trump demonstrations happening, mostly peaceful as far as I know, and these are the sorts of comment the news story about it is getting:

The first thing I hope TRUMP does is take away the right to protest (lol). So tired of people who know so little about how the world works protesting! It just makes them look so ignorant! I was not a fan of Obama and personally think he did a terrible job. But I would have never gone out and protested against him. He won fair and square. He was my president and I wanted him to succeed because anything else would be just a stupid, uneducated, idiotic thing to do!
What's the big deal. Many have seen this coming. These are the kids and the parents of the "everybody gets a trophy" mindset. They did not get a trophy so they think they are going to bi+ch and scream to get their way, maybe get McDonalds on the way home.

They will finally get tired and move along.

Hope they enjoy their protests...only a few more months before this garbage is nipped in the bud.

The fact that the protests also include a lot of college students mean a lot more of the snide comments about "entitled Millennials" too and the need for them to "grow up" and stop being "special snowflakes." The people like the ones making these comments make it really difficult for to have empathy for the economic plight that they are supposed to be having, especially considering that they are the ones with the pensions and the retirements and social security and healthcare and all the other things that the rest of us will apparently never have. They got theirs.

kuddles wrote:

I’m worried that Trump will be like Berlusconi or Putin, removing regulations and other barriers, leading to economic benefits at least in the short term, and it’ll be enough for anything unconstitutional or fraudulent to be swept under the rug with the “everyone’s a little corrupt” and “at least it’s better than before” position by a general populace. I’m worried that what is happening in the US and Europe eventually happening here, and there are signs that it might. I’m worried that we are on the brink of being under a authoritarian government, and news of its arrival will be met with a shrug.

It's disturbing to me that Canada seems to be having these same issues too and I really worry about the same thing happening there. Right now, I can think things like, "Well at least Canada is sane." Not sure what would happen if even those silver linings were gone. I see the world moving in this direction though and it's extremely scary and all the "it's not so bad, you're just overreacting" are exactly the ones that will keep shrugging it right into actually happening if not be outright overjoyed about it because they were able to "stick it to them liberals" one more time.

One of the more sobering/terrifying things going around right now is exactly that kind of "I can't wait until Trump makes it so these protests are illegal." The glimmer of hope I've been holding onto is that if Trump actually starts enacting actively fascist policies like silencing the press and outlawing protests, it'd cross a line that violates the core of our national identity so that that even his supporters can't stomach it, and the outcry would be enough to put the brakes on.

Now, I'm pretty convinced that my small fear that no, as long as their guy is in power, they'll cheer those actions is actually what would happen.

The Star Wars prequels were pretty awful, but man they nailed it with the line "So this is how liberty dies...with thunderous applause."

The really depressing thing is that a lot of that attitude of locking up protesters seems to be a backlash against "political correctness". I mean, we did just go through a period of time where there was a valiant effort made to get people to think more about the world and their privilege, etc. Some people didn't like this. So much so that they're willing to trade their liberties for the chance to be on the "winning" side of an argument.

DSGamer wrote:

I mean, we did just go through a period of time where there was a valiant effort made to get people to think more about the world and their privilege, etc.

I suppose that depends. I mean, people have been doxed, their families have been harassed, they have been fired from their jobs, in some cases because they donated money and participated in the political process (Eich) and such.

What is one person's valiant effort is another person's pile on, fear for loss of ability to make a living, etc.

Even as someone who voted for Hillary I can tell you that Trump supporters saying things about making protests illegal to me is just as scary as some of the silencing techniques employed by the so called SJW movement.

Freedom of speech means people get to stay stupid sh*t. It means they get to participate in the political process regardless of their position. It means that we can choose to ignore them, it means we can choose to not do business with them. I get very uncomfortable when the power of social media etc is used in ways that inflict significant damage on people participating in the process, left or right. It turns my stomach when some of the college kids prevent a speaker from speaking by causing a raucous and then say it's a victory. (If there's any place on earth where people should be able to have a calm debate about a controversial topic it should be on a campus).

I know quite a few intelligent, reasonable people who would never go into politics or participate in advocacy pretty much because they don't want to be involved in the toxicity and they certainly don't want it directed at them.

// The reason South Park etc mock "passionate" people is because their passion often crosses the line into being assholes. And I often think they're spot on using exaggeration to make their point.

Oh absolutely there were lines crossed. But the pendulum swung wildly the other direction and for what? We're going to send around deportation squads because people didn't like being called "racist" when they were? We're going to deny women access to healthcare because someone didn't like being called "misogynist"?

DSGamer wrote:

Oh absolutely there were lines crossed. But the pendulum swung wildly the other direction and for what? We're going to send around deportation squads because people didn't like being called "racist" when they were? We're going to deny women access to healthcare because someone didn't like being called "misogynist"?

The deportation issue is directly tied to the destruction of the blue collar working class. They see the free trade agreements as moving jobs overseas (they aren't wrong) and they see undocumented workers as wage suppressors (I don't think they're wrong there either, supply-demand).

I agree that a portion of those supporters have racist feelings/views, but I disagree that enforcing immigration laws is a racist view.

I haven't seen any policy yet that would deny women access to healthcare. If you're referring to abortion I highly doubt anything is going to change there no matter how much the religious right wants it. Let's play that scenario though:

The open supreme court seat is Scalia's. You will be hard pressed to find judges more conservative than him, so the balance of the court won't change with that appointment. Maybe if Ginsberg and Breyer both get replaced this is possible, but there's no evidence right now that it will happen. Roberts as Chief Justice has shown a pretty even hand on issues imho.

Let's roll with that though, both those justices need replaced and are replaced with 2 more justices like Scalia. Roe v Wade is challenged and the Supreme Court, which historically is loathe to reverse old decisions decides to throw it out. Basically what that does is push it back to the states. For the last decade between 50 and 55% of the electorate is pro-choice, so it's highly likely that no abortion policy would change in the majority of states. The supreme court decision wouldn't instantly end abortion, the states would have pass laws with outright bans etc. Bad news for Kansas and a few other states, but it certainly would not result in a blanket nation-wide abortion ban.

That's basically why I keep telling people to calm down and see what happens. If anything, given the rampant expansion of presidential powers under Bush and Obama and the surveillance powers that Trump now has I hope we can learn a lesson about why that sh*t is bad no matter what party a president is affiliate with. Eventually those powers will end up in the wrong hands.

Although a good chunk of states have Republican governors, and at least one legislative branch in power.

Those states have already been pushing hard, changing the rules, and shutting down clinics the last 6 years or so. It's going to get a lot worse.

Stele wrote:

Although a good chunk of states have Republican governors, and at least one legislative branch in power.

Those states have already been pushing hard, changing the rules, and shutting down clinics the last 6 years or so. It's going to get a lot worse.

Agreed, the Planned Parenthood anti campaign was very successful. I actually think PP shouldn't exist, that those clinics are a responsibility of the government. (I support their services, I just think it's not their job).

Last I checked some 16 states this year have legislated to dispense 6 and 12 month supplies of birth control and other sexual health progressive measures. As usual Texas, Kansas, etc are sh*tstorms. It drives me crazy that the anti abortion crowd is also anti contraceptive. Take a look at the unwanted pregnancy statistics in places like Sweden.

Note that abortion is only a very small percentage of the healthcare that all those shut down clinics offered, and oftentimes the *only* place that lower-income patients could afford to go for help. Maybe Donald Trump didn't specifically start this particular wave of denying women (and families) healthcare, but doesn't mean he's going to halt it, and Pence and his ilk certainly aren't going to when they are directly responsible for continuing the oppression. And yet we're supposed to sit back calmly and just take a "wait and see" approach?

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences. What I continually see is conservatives complaing when called out for what they say. They aren't being silenced, but are angry that others have a negative opinion of them based on what they say. That's not a silencing technique, that's life.

bandit0013 wrote:

// The reason South Park etc mock "passionate" people is because their passion often crosses the line into being assholes. And I often think they're spot on using exaggeration to make their point.

Side note, but: The reason South Park et al mock "passion" is that a kind of disaffected irony has become their accepted way to engage with the world, and any emotion that expresses sincerity is something to be mocked. In that worldview, if you believe in something, it's because you've been duped. It's a way to protect against being betrayed by believing in things, by preemptively disbelieving in everything.

The people doing the ironic mocking of passion are generally bigger assholes than the people they're mocking.

bandit0013 wrote:
Stele wrote:

Although a good chunk of states have Republican governors, and at least one legislative branch in power.

Those states have already been pushing hard, changing the rules, and shutting down clinics the last 6 years or so. It's going to get a lot worse.

Agreed, the Planned Parenthood anti campaign was very successful. I actually think PP shouldn't exist, that those clinics are a responsibility of the government. (I support their services, I just think it's not their job).

Last I checked some 16 states this year have legislated to dispense 6 and 12 month supplies of birth control and other sexual health progressive measures. As usual Texas, Kansas, etc are sh*tstorms. It drives me crazy that the anti abortion crowd is also anti contraceptive. Take a look at the unwanted pregnancy statistics in places like Sweden.

Bolded so much. Colorado did free birth control 6 or 8 years back and abortions dropped by 40%. If the pro-lifers really want to work together, sex education and contraceptives are the way to compromise.

Unfortunately, the most vocal of the "pro-life" crowd really isn't interested with reducing abortions by reducing the amount of pregnancies, it's interested in reducing the number of abortions by reducing the number of women having sex.

Chaz wrote:

Unfortunately, the most vocal of the "pro-life" crowd really isn't interested with reducing abortions by reducing the amount of pregnancies, it's interested in reducing the number of abortions by reducing the number of women having sex.

Indeed. Specifically women having sex.

So much for Trump maybe listening to sensible advice on ACA

A full repeal of the Affordable Care Act had been central to Trump's campaign. Over the past week, however, Trump said he would be open to keeping portions of the law, such as ensuring that people with preexisting conditions are covered and allowing children to stay on their parents' health plans through age 26.

When Wallace asked whether Obama had changed Trump's mind about a full repeal, Conway brushed it off as Trump being polite.

Don't worry, when Trump lies he is merely being polite.

So, this morning the headline on CNN was that Trump was going to use twitter less now that he has won...

A few hours later... he goes off on The NY Times via twitter...

There's still time!
IMAGE(http://corryfrydlewicz.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/4GP2jmq.png)

Wow, he really is just bragging about how everyone's calling to congratulate him. He does know that this isn't something personal and just a matter of etiquette, right? He's the kind of bully who threatens to punch someone unless they compliment him, then brags about how great everyone thinks he is because they complimented him.