[Discussion] On Television, Cinema and the Under Represented

Thread for race issues in media.

Birth Of a Nation
This movie isn't do so good. I think this is because black people are tired of slave type movies, white people don't want the white guilt, and everybody else is turned off by the rape case. I mean this in general. This is just a perfect storm for the downfall of the movie.

Surviving Compton
Straight out of compton left out the ladies. This lifetime show means to correct that. I believe all of the production was done by women.

Mulan live.
All Chinese cast. Maybe the dumb choices of Gods of Egypt are over.

I feel like every tweet about this should end with, "And if you think that's bad, just wait until you find out what John Wayne almost did to Sacheen Littlefeather at the 1973 Oscars."

To me, Rock looks like he’s trying to get ahold of the show again, and Smith is trying to get ahold of his emotions. Will Smith was very obviously furious.

ruhk wrote:

That’s the one that I saw, he yells but neither he nor Rock ever look all that concerned throughout any part of the exchange despite a fight being instigated on live tv.

You and I apparently identify concern differently.

I think part of the reason so many people think it looks staged is because everyone is seeing Chris Rock's face as he goes into improv mode when things go off script. To me it looks like he's thinking "I'm not sure what's about to happen but I'll go along with the bit." and realizing too late that Will Smith isn't playing around.

Tscott wrote:

I think part of the reason so many people think it looks staged is because everyone is seeing Chris Rock's face as he goes into improv mode when things go off script. To me it looks like he's thinking "I'm not sure what's about to happen but I'll go along with the bit." and realizing too late that Will Smith isn't playing around.

There was also this long gap in the audio on ABC that started from the slap and didn't end for nearly 30 seconds that kind of muddied the waters.

Rat Boy wrote:

I feel like every tweet about this should end with, "And if you think that's bad, just wait until you find out what John Wayne almost did to Sacheen Littlefeather at the 1973 Oscars."

I had to look that up. That's some sh*t.

Nevin73 wrote:
Rat Boy wrote:

I feel like every tweet about this should end with, "And if you think that's bad, just wait until you find out what John Wayne almost did to Sacheen Littlefeather at the 1973 Oscars."

I had to look that up. That's some sh*t.

And apparently Clint Eastwood has always been an asshole. Thought it was just recently that he got crazy and talked to chairs.

Stele wrote:
Nevin73 wrote:
Rat Boy wrote:

I feel like every tweet about this should end with, "And if you think that's bad, just wait until you find out what John Wayne almost did to Sacheen Littlefeather at the 1973 Oscars."

I had to look that up. That's some sh*t.

And apparently Clint Eastwood has always been an asshole. Thought it was just recently that he got crazy and talked to chairs.

Yeah, he's always been an asshole. Look up how he treated Fritz Manes due to perceived disrespect during the filming of Heartbreak Ridge.

It really disappoints me because he is such a good film-maker.

Rat Boy wrote:

I feel like every tweet about this should end with, "And if you think that's bad, just wait until you find out what John Wayne almost did to Sacheen Littlefeather at the 1973 Oscars."

Well, I learned something about Oscar history. Already knew that Clint Eastwood sits in the overlap of the Venn diagram between"talented creative" and "actual piece of sh*t." Didn't know that for a fact about John Wayne, but I can't say I'm surprised.

Good for Marlon Brando. I'm sure he got into his share of shady sh*t, but it sounds like he did a good thing in that particular instance.

I draw the line at violence. I do think that’s where the line ought to be, and not what sort of violence is justifiable. Once you’re into responding violently to verbal assaults, it goes all the way to homicide. Quite frankly, I’m sick and tired of having to be woken up at 2 in the morning because someone thought the correct way to respond to someone mocking their rendition of a karaoke song is a machete to the face.

Rat Boy wrote:

I feel like every tweet about this should end with, "And if you think that's bad, just wait until you find out what John Wayne almost did to Sacheen Littlefeather at the 1973 Oscars."

As an addendum to my history lesson, I keep believing that if he somehow got around six security guards at that age and laid hands on her on live TV, they'd still name the airport after him.

Public Enemy warned us but we didn't listen.

Elvis was a hero to most
But he never meant s**t to me you see
Straight up racist that sucker was
Simple and plain
Motherf*** him and John Wayne

Tscott wrote:

I think part of the reason so many people think it looks staged is because everyone is seeing Chris Rock's face as he goes into improv mode when things go off script. To me it looks like he's thinking "I'm not sure what's about to happen but I'll go along with the bit." and realizing too late that Will Smith isn't playing around.

I thought that at first too. My first thought was, "that was an out-of-line joke, but what a goddamn professional."

After learning that he's been needling the Smiths for years and they've largely been responding by being the adults in the room, though, I've got a different read. This, or something like it, was exactly what Rock wanted. He wants a rap-style beef with a bigger, more successful, better-respected celebrity than he is, and Smith has been refusing to play along. Until now.

Look at his big sh*t eating grin as Smith walks up to him. Look how he leans forward, daring Smith to put a hand on him. Look how his smile doesn't waver for even an instant after he gets hit. There's no shock, no fear, and to the extent that there's surprise, it's delighted surprise. He's a little kid who just got exactly what he wanted for his birthday.

Notice how Smith has been stumblef*cking his way through half-assed apologies, but there's been barely a peep from Chris Rock, other than to say he won't press charges. (Why would he? This is his chance to play the part of the magnanimous bigger man, a part that up until now Smith has kept for himself.)

Rock isn't going to give the next chapter of this little melodrama away for free. It will all go into his next hour-long stand-up special. He went home from the Oscars and began feverishly polishing up his notes for it with all the little details of how it went down that he couldn't have known until it happened.

Alternatively, Chris Rock is a little guy who has been a comedian talking sh*t to big dudes for 50 years and this wasn't his first smack.

I like stand up comedy. I do not like what this will do to stand up comedians. I predict that their podcasts will be awash with support of Chris Rock. "It's a joke" will be their rallying cry. This is well trodden territory for them, but it's on a much bigger stage now. Now they can take their message of "Let us say whatever we want to whomever we want with total impunity to any backlash or consequence because one famous person slapped another and that's not right" to the masses because they're finally all paying attention now.

Grenn wrote:

I like stand up comedy. I do not like what this will do to stand up comedians. I predict that their podcasts will be awash with support of Chris Rock. "It's a joke" will be their rallying cry. This is well trodden territory for them, but it's on a much bigger stage now. Now they can take their message of "Let us say whatever we want to whomever we want with total impunity to any backlash or consequence because one famous person slapped another and that's not right" to the masses because they're finally all paying attention now.

It's already happening. Google "Chris Rock" (like I just did to make sure that he hasn't actually issued some apology that I just missed) and it's the first headline that comes up.

Also note that it's not Rock himself saying any of this. He doesn't have to, because people are doing it for him, and doing so himself risks making him look like the asshole. All he has to do is lay back in the cut and let it play out for a while to gauge what is the precise amount of sh*ttiness he can get away with when he does finally say something about it.

This is like a master class in sh*tty trolling. If Rock says "I didn't know she had alopecia" he looks like an obvious liar, but all he has to do is keep his mouth shut and let other people defend him by saying "well we don't KNOW that he knew" and let plausible deniability do its work.

And because everybody else is already saying the obviously bad faith bullsh*t for him, when he finally says something that is a half step closer to what a reasonable human being might say, he looks like he is being reasonable by comparison.

I'd be surprised if he goes the 'I didn't know' route when he's mocked her for it in the past, so that'll hold no water and I'm sure he knows it, but I wouldn't put it past him to try. This isn't the first time he's taken shots at the Smith's in a very punch-downy kind of way, this is just the first time on television he's done it so brazenly and it seems like Will Smith had enough and lost his cool. That doesn't mean the slap is okay but ther is a social context to a man slapping another man in such a manner and it sends a very, very clear message. (it's a power play).

Rock comes from, and regularly hangs out with, a lot of the old guard comedians who are inherently sexist, known sex pests, or use their privelege to punch down. I stopped following CR years ago after watching a set where he just tore into women (specifically, dating black women, so not new material for him at all) and noped out. There's context to not only his history with the smiths, but also within the greater context of how black men treat black women, which I'm in no position to speak on as a non-black non-woman, and I imagine may be similar for many participants in this forum. If we were talking about how white men treat white women, that would be a different story because the cultural dynamics are different and they are ones more of us can speak to. There's also an element of toxic masculinity at play here, but that is also too enmeshed in the intersection of race for me to feel comfortable speaking on as someone not of that race.

slazev wrote:

This doesn't seem to be the appropriate place for this, but anyway...

He was laughing at first (maybe fake laughing), but his wife didn't take it well, which it's probably what prompted him into self-defense mode. Not that uncommon.
It was still the wrong thing to do, and, yes, I think it was real. It would be much better for him to walk away from the event in protest.
What next? Comedians can get slapped or worse whenever someone doesn't like a joke?

He was laughing from the previous joke it looked like.
Everything else is a straw man, your hyperbolic hypothetical is void of the context leading up to this.

Comedians have always been at risk for getting slapped because someone "didn't like a joke," he's not the first nor the last, there's just A LOT OF INTERSECTION going on here that is being overlooked. Being a comedian or taking the "it's just a joke" angle doesn't absolve anyone from not being sh*tty and punching down/laughing at instead of laughing with.

Grenn wrote:

I like stand up comedy. I do not like what this will do to stand up comedians. I predict that their podcasts will be awash with support of Chris Rock. "It's a joke" will be their rallying cry. This is well trodden territory for them, but it's on a much bigger stage now. Now they can take their message of "Let us say whatever we want to whomever we want with total impunity to any backlash or consequence because one famous person slapped another and that's not right" to the masses because they're finally all paying attention now.

Assholes believe everyone else is also an asshole, and this little rallying cry will be their song-and-dance to prove that more people are actually assholes like them and that people being oversensitive is the problem instead of them not elevating their material to something that might actually be funny instead of gaslighting people for their own amusement.

I loved standup comedy, I used to regularly go to standup shows every weekend in my 20s (i hated clubs and pubs, at least going to a standup show you're doing something). I stopped going because people being negative, sexist, racist pieces of sh*t and projecting that for entertainment got old and tired really, really fast. It's just not original or funny, it seems to exist as validation of normalcy for people who want to justify their penchant for asshole behavior.

I bet the next shoe to drop is Rock signing a multi-special deal with a streaming service.

Rat Boy wrote:

I bet the next shoe to drop is Rock signing a multi-special deal with a streaming service.

I do hope not. His reaction was every bully everywhere who goes too far and gets called out. “Cantcha take a joke?”

It'd probably be more like Dave Chappelle's recent Netflix specials. "I don't hate Will Smith and his family, but let me tell you something about Will Smith and his family... "

It was a joke, a lame joke, yes, but still a joke. He was paid to roast the celebrities in the room and even started it with "Jada, I love you, but.." showing he's just poking fun. The Smiths didn't have to pretend to like it, and you could see she didn't with the rolling of eyes, but to follow that up with violence, on a worldwide stage, shows how broken a man he is, most likely due to the extended media attention over airing their non-magnanimous relationship on their own podcasts. This situation should've been handled back stage, with both men and Jada talking it through like adults. We're told as kids that words do not equal violence. The Hollywood elite seem to have forgotten that as can been seen with Smiths standing ovation. Will Smiths career is over, there's no coming back from this. How am I going to watch Independence Day, again? Who am I kidding, that movie will always kick ass

“Broken man”? Really? Talk sh*t, get hit. It’s a tale as old as time; seeing it play out in public with famous people doesn’t make it somehow more than that.

Doesn't the Academy have some skin in this game? They asked Rock to present knowing the type of humor he brings to the table. This type of joke is very on point for him, and is tame compared to Gervais' run emcee.

I am not in any way suggesting Rock's joke was funny or okay, only that it wasn't unexpected and very on brand.

SallyNasty wrote:

Doesn't the Academy have some skin in this game? They asked Rock to present knowing the type of humor he brings to the table. This type of joke is very on point for him, and is tame compared to Gervais' run emcee.

I am not in any way suggesting Rock's joke was funny or okay, only that it wasn't unexpected and very on brand.

There was some comedian talking about this yesterday and he said that there are staff writers backstage that watch video feeds of the audience and write jokes to feed the presenter through an earpiece so they can focus on emceeing instead of trying to come up with riffs on the spot. It’s more than likely that not only was it not Chris Rock’s joke but that he wasn’t given it until moments before he said it.

I wouldn't suggest removing his agency or culpability for the joke - only that this is exactly his type of humor and that the Oscars would have anticipated exactly these types of jokes.

SallyNasty wrote:

Doesn't the Academy have some skin in this game? They asked Rock to present knowing the type of humor he brings to the table. This type of joke is very on point for him, and is tame compared to Gervais' run emcee.

I am not in any way suggesting Rock's joke was funny or okay, only that it wasn't unexpected and very on brand.

I have no doubt that the Academy loves having an Oscar clip going viral on social media again. That's their skin in the game.

Rat Boy wrote:

It'd probably be more like Dave Chappelle's recent Netflix specials. "I don't hate Will Smith and his family, but let me tell you something about Will Smith and his family... "

Absolutely look for the word "but" whenever he gets around to saying something about what happened. Rule of thumb: the word "but" negates anything that precedes it, e.g. "I'm not racist but..."

hbi2k wrote:

I have no doubt that the Academy loves having an Oscar clip going viral on social media again. That's their skin in the game.

This. Even I’m talking about it and I haven’t watched one of these award shows since college back in the early 00’s. I wouldn’t be surprised if the next show is intentionally designed to spark confrontation.

Maybe they ought to have Maury emcee next.

LarryC wrote:

Maybe they ought to have Maury emcee next.

It's not like he doesn't have time on his hands!

ruhk wrote:
hbi2k wrote:

I have no doubt that the Academy loves having an Oscar clip going viral on social media again. That's their skin in the game.

This. Even I’m talking about it and I haven’t watched one of these award shows since college back in the early 00’s. I wouldn’t be surprised if the next show is intentionally designed to spark confrontation.

Well the Grammy's are Sunday.

Kareem: Will Smith Did a Bad, Bad Thing

Nothing to add from me. Kareem just a really well thought and eloquent.