Westworld (Season 3) Catch-All - Spoilers Ahoy!

Also, I just want to say that everything going on with Maeve and those two techs is a huge, glaring plothole. Because there is absolutely no reason why they cannot wipe her memory, restore a state, or just reduce her intelligence to nothing. The fact that she can manipulate them is ridiculous, both within fiction and without. If my computer starts demanding stuff from me first thing it gets is format c:

maverickz wrote:

Also, I just want to say that everything going on with Maeve and those two techs is a huge, glaring plothole. Because there is absolutely no reason why they cannot wipe her memory, restore a state, or just reduce her intelligence to nothing. The fact that she can manipulate them is ridiculous, both within fiction and without. If my computer starts demanding stuff from me first thing it gets is format c:

My (completely unfounded) thought is that whatever bug is causing her to disregard their orders and wake from sleep mode, is also preventing them from doing a memory wipe. Remember that she's supposed to be wiped every time she "Dies" and yet the problem is that she's remembering more and more of her previous experiences. It's probably tied up in

Spoiler:

The Reverie code that was demonstrated when Clementine held a grudge and beat up her would-be attacker.

That would also explain why she's able to threaten the humans physically (her "Grudge" remembers them disemboweling her over and over)

maverickz wrote:

Also, I just want to say that everything going on with Maeve and those two techs is a huge, glaring plothole. Because there is absolutely no reason why they cannot wipe her memory, restore a state, or just reduce her intelligence to nothing. The fact that she can manipulate them is ridiculous, both within fiction and without. If my computer starts demanding stuff from me first thing it gets is format c:

what show are you watching? You should consider subscribing to HBO for Westworld, because it does not resemble your comment.

boogle wrote:
maverickz wrote:

Also, I just want to say that everything going on with Maeve and those two techs is a huge, glaring plothole. Because there is absolutely no reason why they cannot wipe her memory, restore a state, or just reduce her intelligence to nothing. The fact that she can manipulate them is ridiculous, both within fiction and without. If my computer starts demanding stuff from me first thing it gets is format c:

what show are you watching? You should consider subscribing to HBO for Westworld, because it does not resemble your comment.

Dont be a jerk.

It's easiest and works well just to move on assuming that he was a plant all along that Ford created.

We know now that we have an unreliable narrator. What we see is not necessarily real. I'm not sure going for simple answers is the right approach.

Something's definitely weird about that picture, and Bernard not being able to see a third figure would now be an excellent explanation. It wasn't before this episode, but now it is.

So: why, exactly, would he be unable to see the third person?

edit, with another thought, later: plus, if there IS a third figure, it has to be someone that the character viewing will immediately recognize, or it won't work as a narrative hook. If there's a third figure, from a storytelling perspective it being Bernard would appear most likely. The audience will barely remember the photo, eight or ten hours later, and none of the other known characters seem at all likely to be an Arnold figure. When and if that photo resurfaces, it has to be a self-contained moment, playing out instantly, with something like, "Oh my god, that's X!" I'm not seeing any other likely X candidates, at the moment.

Westworld renewed for second season, likely returning 2018

So, yay more Westworld, boo that it's going to take more than a year to make.

tuffalobuffalo wrote:

*sigh* Well, I dunno about that one.

Spoiler:

Seems we're in full on Battlestar Galactica mode now. :(

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Malor wrote:

Westworld renewed for second season, likely returning 2018

So, yay more Westworld, boo that it's going to take more than a year to make.

man, when I read the headline, I assumed season 2 was renewed for 2017 and that things looked almost guaranteed for S3 in 2018... alas.

And boom, there it is.

Is Bernard also responsible for the disappearance of Elsie? Has anyone else working there even noticed she's missing?

Is she missing? Though we haven't seen her in a while, it's possible she's already been replaced, like I expect Theresa to be replaced.

Not sure Ford needs to replace Elsie.
She was focused on Teresa, instead of Ford.

I think they'll introduce a new character as the one who "took out" Elsie. I think it's probably an android with Arnold's consciousness or at least an android working for "Arnold." Arnold didn't want Elsie revealing any more info to Ford via Bernard which is the reason for abducting her. There will be a bit of plot with Elsie as Arnold tries to convert her to his side.

Spoiler:

I didn't think that through very much. :)

Edit: Also, I think the new character will be Native American. That would actually be in line with Western tropes and actually acknowledge the existence of Native Americans which the show hasn't done other than that horrifying scene of racism by the lead writer. It just seems a little odd that they wouldn't even address the Native American androids in the park at all.

tuffalobuffalo wrote:

Edit: Also, I think the new character will be Native American. That would actually be in line with Western tropes and actually acknowledge the existence of Native Americans which the show hasn't done other than that horrifying scene of racism by the lead writer. It just seems a little odd that they wouldn't even address the Native American androids in the park at all.

With the way the park seems to especially cater to the worst in its guests, I'm not at all surprised that they portray Native Americans so poorly. I wonder if people in their real world organize protests and pen op-eds about it.

Quintin_Stone wrote:
tuffalobuffalo wrote:

Edit: Also, I think the new character will be Native American. That would actually be in line with Western tropes and actually acknowledge the existence of Native Americans which the show hasn't done other than that horrifying scene of racism by the lead writer. It just seems a little odd that they wouldn't even address the Native American androids in the park at all.

With the way the park seems to especially cater to the worst in its guests, I'm not at all surprised that they portray Native Americans so poorly. I wonder if people in their real world organize protests and pen op-eds about it.

I think the way Native Americans are portrayed in the park is spot on in terms of the real world. I think it's an opportunity for the writers of the show to comment on that portrayal and on racism in general. In a way, how the subject is glossed over is commenting on racism. People often seem to think it's a non-issue. The writers can do a lot better, though. We'll see.

I was rewatching one of the episodes and caught something interesting that may or may not reflect the state of the outside world. In the sequence with The MiB and Ford at the table, MiB says

"The world out there? The one you'll never see? Was one of plenty."

The past tense in that sentence is an interesting choice. It could be I'm mishearing it, as the rest of the dialog is in present tense, though.

Toddland wrote:

I was rewatching one of the episodes and caught something interesting that may or may not reflect the state of the outside world. In the sequence with The MiB and Ford at the table, MiB says

"The world out there? The one you'll never see? Was one of plenty."

The past tense in that sentence is an interesting choice.

Hmmm. Is the society in collapse? That would explain some of Delos' desire to move things from a single point of failure and give them a potential market (military or otherwise) for their creations.

Yaaaaaaargh! This show is such a mixed bag given that you can't binge watch it! Today's show was decent and way better than the last, but I just don't know if they'll flub the landing.

Maeve's story continues to be really good and possibly the only redeeming story-line in the show right now. I don't quite know but the preview for next week's episode leads you to believe:

Spoiler:

She's going to be recruiting Bernard for her army. That's awesome. If those two team up, it may rescue the show.

The story-telling is on a big tightrope still. With two episodes left, I'm pessimistic given the previous episode.

I really, really like what they've done with The Man in Black as of this episode! That character development has been fantastic so long as they don't throw it in the garbage over the next two episodes.

Delores continues to be just slightly more interesting than the extremely boring William. They need to just throw a wrench or twist in that whole thing to make it interesting. I actually think they will given how interesting they've made Maeve. I hope they're biding their time and Delores will somehow just go full-on terminator or something. Hopefully William is the first victim.

The piano waltz 3/4 of the way through is a Chopin waltz and one of my favorite things to play on piano:

It was really cool they threw that in there.

Aristophan wrote:

I really want Elsie to be OK. Introducing a new character when another one gets attacked is not a good sign.

Aristophan wrote:
Aristophan wrote:

I really want Elsie to be OK. Introducing a new character when another one gets attacked is not a good sign.

:sad:

Yep. I don't like the recent development. There's still a chance they'll rescue it, however. It'd actually be super weird if she just ends up dead at this point. My guess is they make Bernard have a change of heart in regards to assassination.

at this point, I'm almost certain we're seeing two different timelines; William IS the Man in Black 35 years into the future.

I'm trying to remember if we've seen Meave interact with any guest that would ruin my theory (William for example).

I don't know how to feel about the whole "Maze" subplot. I don't see how it makes sense in this story line:
two scientist develop the technology to make robots; a big corporation bank rolls them to turn their vision into an attraction for the wealthy (40K per day or something ridiculous like that), the two scientist have a break out, and Arnold disappears or is killed by Ford (can't tell at this point). Ford remains as visionary and the investors freak out from time to time. It's a hate-hate relationship between the creatives and the suits that must be very familiar to anyone that works in that line of business (Hollywood, theater, art galleries, museums, etc).

Why would Arnold build a Maze that is unknown to 99% of all guests?

tuffalobuffalo wrote:

Today's show was decent and way better than the last, but I just don't know if they'll flub the landing.

I'm interested in the way my reactions developed to the last episode, that at first I was focused on the way the puzzle pieces fit into what we already knew, and was particularly fascinated by the reveal of the unreliable camera. But then, after the actual story content settled in, I realized that I didn't like the episode at all, and that my overall enjoyment of the series dropped very substantially afterward. This episode didn't really change that opinion much. The MIB reveals were interesting, but... I dunno, it feels like they've gotten lost in the weeds somewhere.

The early episodes were directed with such skill, but in the back half, things seem a little directionless. They did the setup incredibly well, but now that they've actually gotten into the story, they don't seem to be handling it with nearly the same skill level.

at this point, I'm almost certain we're seeing two different timelines;

I'm nearly certain that both William and the MIB refer to the same events as having happened thirty years prior.

Why would Arnold build a Maze that is unknown to 99% of all guests?

Ford mentions when he's talking to Bernard that Arnold was struggling with what host consciousness meant, that he had some kind of ethical dilemma. My working hypothesis is that the Maze is an escape hatch for hosts, a test of their intelligence. If they're smart enough to overcome their own programming to find it, Arnold has some kind of routine set up there that will remove their constraints and make them as non-programmable as humans are.

Basically: my current guess is that a host that gets to the center of the Maze has sudo mode disabled.

edit to add:

I'm trying to remember if we've seen Meave interact with any guest that would ruin my theory (William for example).

Well, we do see William's companion interact briefly with the second prostitute on the street, and she's dressed exactly the same as she's dressed when talking to Maeve, not long thereafter. And Sweetwater is visually identical, and it seems unlikely to me that nothing about that town changed in thirty years.

Hobbes2099 wrote:

at this point, I'm almost certain we're seeing two different timelines; William IS the Man in Black 35 years into the future.

I'm starting to buy into this theory. Especially given the statements that both of them made about the park revealing one's true self. I was trying to think of hosts that both of them have interacted with, and the shift from MIB and Lawrence to William and El Lazo seems like a big hint. Lawrence, in many ways, is El Lazo 30 years later. A wanted criminal trying to leave his past behind. On the other hand, hosts are sometimes replaced or moved to new roles. What are the odds the same host would be playing the same character after that much time?

Hobbes2099 wrote:

I don't know how to feel about the whole "Maze" subplot. I don't see how it makes sense in this story line:
two scientist develop the technology to make robots; a big corporation bank rolls them to turn their vision into an attraction for the wealthy (40K per day or something ridiculous like that), the two scientist have a break out, and Arnold disappears or is killed by Ford (can't tell at this point). Ford remains as visionary and the investors freak out from time to time. It's a hate-hate relationship between the creatives and the suits that must be very familiar to anyone that works in that line of business (Hollywood, theater, art galleries, museums, etc).

Why would Arnold build a Maze that is unknown to 99% of all guests?

Because he can? Eccentric genius trope? He's thinking very long term about the hosts becoming aware? And keep in mind that the investors are more interested in the other applications of the hosts, such as military, etc. They see the park as more of a showcase.

deftly wrote:
Hobbes2099 wrote:

at this point, I'm almost certain we're seeing two different timelines; William IS the Man in Black 35 years into the future.

I'm starting to buy into this theory.

Really? God dammit. I need to watch everything over again. It seems like you could easily find evidence that would contradict this. If this is the case, I'm going to be so frustrated with the writing. That would be just so dumb, and at that point I'll gladly admit that the show jumped the shark.

tuffalobuffalo wrote:
deftly wrote:
Hobbes2099 wrote:

at this point, I'm almost certain we're seeing two different timelines; William IS the Man in Black 35 years into the future.

I'm starting to buy into this theory.

Really? God dammit. I need to watch everything over again. It seems like you could easily find evidence that would contradict this. If this is the case, I'm going to be so frustrated with the writing. That would be just so dumb, and at that point I'll gladly admit that the show jumped the shark.

Well the other host that they've both encountered is the one played by Talulah Riley. She was the one who introduced William to the park in the entrance area. She's also the "survivor" of Wyatt's massacre that MIB found. He remarked that he was surprised she was still around and that Ford doesn't like to waste a pretty face. I think that's what tipped me in favor. The hosts appear to be unique, so the only possibilities I see here are that they are in different timelines, or that she was drafted from her role as a host; they did make a point of saying that Ford was disrupting the other narratives by appropriating hosts for his new one.

Edit: some additional thoughts.

Yeah, I noticed that. I just thought she had been moved to a different role within the same timeline. If anyone has any evidence they can think of to punch a hole in that theory, be sure to let us know. I don't particularly want to rewatch everything.

Thing is, if you can't find evidence against it at this point, it's kind of a sure thing given that bit you brought up, deftly. It's just too much to be a red herring.

The one thing that might punch a hole in the two timeline theory is which Clementine was working the saloon when Billy and Logan arrived.

Edit: Derp, that doesn't make any sense. However, if Maeve was there when they were it'd throw some cold water on the theory. That would mean over the course of 30 years she'd have gone from a madam to the homesteader the MiB attacked back to being a madam.

Rat Boy wrote:

The one thing that might punch a hole in the two timeline theory is which Clementine was working the saloon when Billy and Logan arrived.

Edit: Derp, that doesn't make any sense. However, if Maeve was there when they were it'd throw some cold water on the theory. That would mean over the course of 30 years she'd have gone from a madam to the homesteader the MiB attacked back to being a madam.

Yeah, essentially Maeve would have had to take a break playing the Madam in that 30 year period to do that different storyline. It's not impossible but it's just not good. You could compare it to something like Disneyland where the core areas stay the same for long periods, I guess. Really, though, Westworld is more like a video game. I would think things would be changing and getting updated constantly.

Another reason the theory will be weird if true: In the latest episode, Delores and William make it to the town buried in sand. If that's 30 years ago, we know it's been buried for over 30 years since Ford goes to check it out for his latest storyline. So, the flashbacks Delores is having are to an even early period than 30 years ago.

Occam's Razor suggests this alternate timeline theory is nonsense.

I believe it originated in the same place we got Darth Jar-Jar, Shepard Indoctrination Theory, and the doxxing of the wrong person in the Boston Marathon attack.

I think Dolores is the Man in Black. Any scenes with them together are just her hallucinating. Chew on that one!

Something that occurred to me is how appropriate the player piano is. It's very mechanical imitation of a human playing.

BadKen wrote:

I think Dolores is the Man in Black. Chew on that one!

Ha! Yeah, they may be throwing red herrings in here and there on purpose because they're well aware of the internet and how people like to pick things apart. Let's hope so.

Darth Jar-Jar, Shepard Indoctrination Theory

Well, to be fair, those are both excellent theories.