Westworld Catch-All - Spoilers Ahoy!

Alz wrote:

I think the biggest reveal hasn't even been mentioned yet -

Spoiler:

When William and Logan arguing about smuggling out Dolores, she brings up a great point, to the effect of

"If it's so great 'Out There', why are you all so desperate to get 'In here?' "

With everything about timelines and discovering who's a host and who's human, I think whatever is going on in the "real" world is turning into the big mystery of the show.

My Theory:

Spoiler:

Have you played The Talos Principle yet?

I think you're right on the money. I expect to find out more on this next week, setting up Season 2.

I'm really pumped my feeble brain isn't sharp enough to be pissed off by anything this show does. It's just great, and last night was the greatest yet. I love how powerful my own memories feel to me after I watched the episode. I now think of them as my own personal mind bullets.

*dons Team Westworld shirt*

I just think of this story of how the Cylons were developed and took over.

I love the show so far, probably in the top 10 shows of all time for me. It does seem like the start of the cylons. BSG is also in my top ten shows of all time.

That was awesome! I really like this show. Also, mark my words, three timelines.

Also the name/anagram was confirmed last night.

maverickz wrote:

That was awesome! I really like this show. Also, mark my words, three timelines.

How so? Are you referring to the 3 years gap when the park was closed to guests and Arnold was still alive?

Eezy_Bordone wrote:

Also the name/anagram was confirmed last night.

Maybe they just quickly CG'd the last name as a nod. They did that with the Westworld logo to keep consistency between the different timelines.

Anyway, really liked this episode and kudos to Nolan and Joy for answering a lot questions this season.

slazev wrote:
maverickz wrote:

That was awesome! I really like this show. Also, mark my words, three timelines.

How so? Are you referring to the 3 years gap when the park was closed to guests and Arnold was still alive?

I see the three as timelines as these: Billy and Dolores, Man in Black, and Dolores' interviews with Arnold.

Things were thrown for a loop a bit when the MiB encountered Dolores last night, BUT, you will notice she had no stab wound, so I still think it holds.

When you say "Dolores' interviews with Arnold", that's what I meant with the 3 years gap (aka, more than 30 years ago; aka, research time; aka, Dolores has a purty dress).

slazev wrote:

When you say "Dolores' interviews with Arnold", that's what I meant with the 3 years gap (aka, more than 30 years ago; aka, research time; aka, Dolores has a purty dress).

Then yes

So...

there's a timeline when Billy and Dolores are travelling together. Dolores is stabbed by Logan.

There is a second time line when Dolores seems to be re-living the Billy timeline but now she's all by herself. She remembered being stabbed but actually isn't. She's having a hard time separating these two timelines and so are we, the viewers, for the same reason.

There is a third timeline where the MiB is looking for the Maze; joined by Teddy (up until now). He's run into Dolores, he's run into Teddy, he's run into El Lazo (when El Lazo is known as Lawrence).

So, 3 timelines and counting.

I'm trying to remember how many times we've seen the "boot up" sequence where the pianola plays different songs. Maybe it's a subtle indicator of the number of parallel timelines we're actually seeing?

I think I can now point at what bothers me about how the showrunners are hiding information; what has me and Malor feeling cheated on; wrapping in spoilers the examples that come to mind:

- Hosts will sometimes see images for what they are and freak out

Spoiler:

(Dolores' original host father figure seeing a photograph he found on the ground),

- sometimes they will see something and their programming will force them to interpreit it as something else but we, the spectators, will see what's real

Spoiler:

(we, the spectators, can clearly see Bernard's face in the Vitruvian design when we learn he's a host).

- and sometimes, we, the spectators, will be fed false images along with Host, in the name of "the Host is not ready to see what's in front of him/her". the

Spoiler:

(Ford's picture were Bernard appears in the picture only after it's been revealed he was built in Arnold's image).

this last one is the wild card that will be abused to most. It's not misdirection, it's flat out lying to the audience. "but we saw..." "Aha! you only thought you saw X and Y, what really did happened, was that MiB is a host who's code won't let you see that Ford was dead since episode 2, season 4 and it really was Arnold, who's pretending to be dead when it was Jack from Lost all along!!"

The Host visual selectivity programming isn't just pictures, remember. It's everything. The door for instance that Bernard can't see.

I think what you see and how you see it depends on who in the scene holds the highest consciousness level, that determines what you can see.

maverickz wrote:

I think what you see and how you see it depends on who in the scene holds the highest consciousness level, that determines what you can see.

I hadn't seen it that way. Interesting.

Also, the timeline with MiB looking for the maze is the same one as Dolores reliving her journey with William.

I'm really liking the show quite a lot but I love mystery box shows, it feeds my overactive imagination. At the same time, I don't begrudge anyone who isn't liking it as much as they thought. To each their own.

I know the prevailing on the interwebs is that Will is the man in black but my money is on Logan (Wills 'ex' friend). Think about it...

- Logan and Dolores have a negative history, thus explaining her strong reaction at the man in black
- Logan is in a position of power outside the park, so is the man in black
- Logan and the man in black both are fond of saying that the park reveals your true self, they even both almost say verbatim, the same line
- Logan always black as well (minor tid bid I know...)
- Logan and the Man in Black have similiar builds and if you were a casting agent, you could cast Logan as a young Ed Harris, at least long before you'd cast Will as one

I'm actually wondering if Logan kills Will, sending Dolores into a malfunctioning crazed frenzy.

Slacker1913 wrote:

Also, the timeline with MiB looking for the maze is the same one as Dolores reliving her journey with William.

I thought that was the case as well, but then how come she has no stab wound when she goes into the church and then meets the man in black?

My theory is that she is re-living her journey with William a second time. Which I think would explain the lack of stab wound, the weird flashback she has at the metal structure, seeing herself in the Pariah parade, and the fact that the gun she puts in the drawer disappears.

Another thing that conflicted for me about William being the MIB was that MIB mentioned to Ford when they were talking in that saloon he "saved the park" when the revolt was happening. If that were the case, that would mean William somehow took a turn while on his path with Delores and actually stopped everything, which never really made sense to me.

RooksGambit wrote:

I'm really liking the show quite a lot but I love mystery box shows, it feeds my overactive imagination. At the same time, I don't begrudge anyone who isn't liking it as much as they thought. To each their own.

I know the prevailing on the interwebs is that Will is the man in black but my money is on Logan (Wills 'ex' friend). Think about it...

- Logan and Dolores have a negative history, thus explaining her strong reaction at the man in black
- Logan is in a position of power outside the park, so is the man in black
- Logan and the man in black both are fond of saying that the park reveals your true self, they even both almost say verbatim, the same line
- Logan always black as well (minor tid bid I know...)
- Logan and the Man in Black have similiar builds and if you were a casting agent, you could cast Logan as a young Ed Harris, at least long before you'd cast Will as one

I'm actually wondering if Logan kills Will, sending Dolores into a malfunctioning crazed frenzy.

I had the same though at one point. Logan and MIB's attitudes are similar. William's is the antithesis of Logan and the MIB. Something would have to happen in the finale to explain such a dramatic shift in William's attitude. But Logan is just there to kill and screw. At that point, he has absolutely no interest in getting deeper into the world. Maybe Logan kills early-Maeve's daughter and realizes there's more to the hosts' consciousness? Need to go back and see if any of William/Logan/MIB are present during one of Maeve's flashbacks.

I think we see that shift at the end of the last episode. When William says he understand the game now, after cutting apart all of those robots. But the idea of Logan killing William being a trigger for Dolores is interesting.

Interesting little summary of the show to date with speculation on what all the timelines / story are all about.

http://www.vulture.com/2016/11/westw...

Careful... it is a full summary to date (episode 9).

Slacker1913 wrote:

Also, the timeline with MiB looking for the maze is the same one as Dolores reliving her journey with William.

I think that could work. I mean, what with the Hosts not aging and tech support repairing wounds all the time, how do we know (for sure, I mean) that it's the same line? But yeah, I prefer 2 times to more than 3 or more.

RooksGambit wrote:

I know the prevailing on the interwebs is that Will is the man in black but my money is on Logan (Wills 'ex' friend). Think about it...

Yes, but having good-natured William turn into amoral MiB is quite the character arc; having Logan who is evil in every way and doesn't care what goes on in the park turn into the MiB who is evil in every way but cares about what does take place in the park is not a very interesting character arc.

I think the timeline in which Delores has no stab wound must be in the past. The scene earlier at the river bank when William had to take the gun from Dolores as she pointed it to her head and she begs him to tell her "If this was the present/real" wouldn't make any sense as being the past given the particular flashback moments before. ... Or there are four timelines .

Huh, someone did one of those "connect the dots with red string" things for the show's various events and time lines. Pretty neat if you ask me. Explains a lot.

Spoiler:

IMAGE(https://www.colourbox.com/preview/4889532-red-ball-of-yarn.jpg)

I'm having difficulty with the multiple timelines thing after re-re-watching episode 3.

1) Bernard uses the "evolution created all sentient life using only one tool: the mistake" line when interviewing Dolores, shortly after Ford says it to Bernard. I suppose you could argue that it was originally something Arnold had said, and Ford picked it up and subsequently repeated it to Bernard, but the timing is awfully convenient.

2) Dolores has a vision of the first Peter Abernathy (the ex-Professor) and the Man in Black in the barn, just before shooting the outlaw that killed her parents. After that, she rides off and meets William and co. Unless Dolores is prescient, that doesn't really work.

Maybe we'll find out the truth on Sunday. If it ends in a cliffhanger, I will be very disappointed.

You might want to watch this video, which I think does a nice job detailing the very subtle clues/evidence for the timeline theories.

Specifically, for Bernard/Arnold interviewing Dolores, note how Arnold is always wearing black and different styled clothing than does Bernard.

I'm inclined to agree with Malor that if that is really the case, then Nolan & Joy are guilty of playing silly games with the audience, rather than constructing a clever story and telling it non-linearly. The two things I mentioned above are particularly egregious.

Yeah, I don't like shows where they're actively lying to you about things. As I said upthread, we have no real defense against that; it's beating up the helpless. If you can't possibly tell what's really going on, because you're being deliberately misled with a false camera, why not just wait for the end? Watch the last hour, and you can finally (probably) trust what you see as being accurate.

Moviemaking has a language to it, because cameras are limited, and using that language to lie is, in my view, very poor form. Limit information? Sure. But actively trying to mislead the audience through deceptive cuts strikes me as unfair.

Yeah. I'll watch the last episode out of morbid curiosity and maybe even make a brief comment if I can come up with something positive, but I'll do my best to bow out of the thread because I've made my feelings abundantly clear at this point.

I'm with you haters.