Westworld Catch-All - Spoilers Ahoy!

BadKen wrote:
maverickz wrote:
Malor wrote:
Malor, did you ever see Memento?

Nope. I don't know what the ground rules were in that show, but I gotta say, if they're being deceptive enough to support two timelines in this one, the show isn't worth watching. If they're willing to mislead viewers to that degree, there's no point in viewing it. You might as well just wait and find out what the resolution is; the interim story beats are pointless.

Is it alright with you if I still watch it even though I believe in multiple time lines and that they are lying?

(Read with super exaggerated seriousness): Malor has forbidden it. You continue watching at your peril.

Let get.... DANGEROUS!

Malor wrote:
maverickz wrote:

Is it alright with you if I still watch it even though I believe in multiple time lines and that they are lying?

If they're willing to lie to you that much, why watch anything but the ending? At that point, other viewing is just wasting your time.

I'm ok with this.

I bet when you finish The Maze, you can be a Red Hat, a Blue Hat, or a Green Hat.

The timelines theory is becoming more and more popular. This doesn't hapen because the camera is lying. Clues have been layed out for we to, at the very least, consider it. Screw it. I'm going into the sea.

That was profoundly unsatisfying. Yay, mystery box shows!

All of this has happened before... and all of this will happen again.

So, any interesting writing they had going on in the first couple episodes has been voided. The only character that remains interesting is Maeve. How do you write a show well for a couple episodes and then do the rest so, so badly?

Sadly, I'll hate watch the last episode and probably any other episodes just so I can justify my annoyance. I hope they keep on the awful train with the last episode and then I might not even bother to hate watch the second season.

Wow. What a different reaction. I thought this episode was amazing. They moved the show forward, answered a ton of questions, showing that they are not going to spin their wheels like Lost did. I feel like the slow simmer of the season is coming to a boil. Fantastic acting, especially by Wright. Good writing. Can't wait for the finale and Season 2.

maverickz wrote:
Aristophan wrote:

When did we learn Arnold's last name?

We didn't. But it fits. There hasn't been any confirmation of this.

It appears on a sign in this episode. Perhaps that sign was visible in a previous episode, when we saw the young Anthony Hopkins.

lostlobster wrote:

Wow. What a different reaction. I thought this episode was amazing. They moved the show forward, answered a ton of questions, showing that they are not going to spin their wheels like Lost did. I feel like the slow simmer of the season is coming to a boil. Fantastic acting, especially by Wright. Good writing. Can't wait for the finale and Season 2.

Oh, good, I'm glad there was something good there that didn't resonate with me.

So, after that episode, one major supposition is borne out, but the dual timeline idea is looking more possible, again.

(Man, whoever it was that spotted the photo being wrong deserves big kudos.)

That last shot of Dolores in particular made me think pretty strongly that William and the MIB are probably the same person. But from an earlier storytelling perspective, that would be very, very sloppy. The only way it works is if Stubbs is another host, and nobody noticed him holding the same job for thirty years.

I was also very impressed with Bernard's actor (is that Wright?) Man, that guy delivered.

edit: however, on the Stubbs thing... note that he is the only actor who has ever referred to himself as having a backstory. I don't think he's interesting enough to be a host, but only two people in the series so far have joked about being robots, and right now, we're at 1 for 2.

Jeffery Wright - pretty much amazing in everything he's in. Plot-wise I can understand complaints about the series, but the acting has been phenomenal.

Aristophan wrote:

Jeffery Wright - pretty much amazing in everything he's in. Plot-wise I can understand complaints about the series, but the acting has been phenomenal.

The acting has been so, so phenomenal. It's a tossup at this point whether or not Tandie Newton or Jeffery Wright "wins the award". They both beat Hopkins at this point acting-wise.

Malor wrote:

(Man, whoever it was that spotted the photo being wrong deserves big kudos.)

Spoiler:

That photo Logan whipped out of his sister is definitely the same one that Delores' previous dad Abernathy freaked out over.

Rat Boy wrote:
Malor wrote:

(Man, whoever it was that spotted the photo being wrong deserves big kudos.)

Spoiler:

That photo Logan whipped out of his sister is definitely the same one that Delores' previous dad Abernathy freaked out over.

Spoiler:

Yeah, pretty sure that cat is out of the bag at this point concerning William and MiB.

Well this show is a great place to watch Anthony Hopkins and Jeffery Wright act their way out of a poop box.
The poop box is the plot.
I think the plot is poop now.

boogle wrote:

Well this show is a great place to watch Anthony Hopkins and Jeffery Wright act their way out of a poop box.
The poop box is the plot.
I think the plot is poop now.

IMAGE(https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Ancient-Aliens.jpg)

Thinking more on it this morning, I could have easily dealt with and enjoyed the Bernard/Arnold aspect. That was fine. As long as they didn't get too carried away with "who's the robot" episodes, it would have been easy enough to ignore.

The William/Man-in-Black thing was just too much. They can basically write in whatever the heck they want, including aliens, at this point, and I would just shrug and not be surprised.

Yarp.

I don't understand the hate for this show, and specifically this episode.

Different strokes for different folks, of course. But you either like these shows where you're trying to figure out what's going on or you don't. It doesn't make sense to suddenly be upset that this is the way the show is. It's not like the writers suddenly switched gears -- the William/MiB thing has been an integral part of the story from the beginning. It's only now being made explicit. The "who's a host" game is inevitable, given the subject matter. My only disappointment is that we didn't get to see Bernard struggle with the knowledge he'd been given and how that would play out. But I'm pretty sure he'll be back. Either wiped and back to an "unawakened" state, or rebuilt by Maeve's pet butcher.

I'm especially excited because they're not teasing out a lot of these questions for a long time. They clearly have plans to move the story past these initial mysteries.

The AV Club review was positive on it, so it definitely seems like a "different strokes for different folks" thing. I really should blame myself for thinking the show would be something it clearly decided not to be after the first couple episodes.

I think the biggest reveal hasn't even been mentioned yet -

Spoiler:

When William and Logan arguing about smuggling out Dolores, she brings up a great point, to the effect of

"If it's so great 'Out There', why are you all so desperate to get 'In here?' "

With everything about timelines and discovering who's a host and who's human, I think whatever is going on in the "real" world is turning into the big mystery of the show.

My Theory:

Spoiler:

Have you played The Talos Principle yet?

The AV Club comments section on the latest episode is a gold mine.

For me, the most interesting thing in the show so far has been learning Ford's theories on the nature of consciousness. It's only an elaborate mating ritual. The human mind is a disease (and he is the cure). The man has some crazy ideas built on kernels of truth, and I love the way he describes them.

lostlobster wrote:

I don't understand the hate for this show, and specifically this episode.

Different strokes for different folks, of course. But you either like these shows where you're trying to figure out what's going on or you don't. It doesn't make sense to suddenly be upset that this is the way the show is. It's not like the writers suddenly switched gears -- the William/MiB thing has been an integral part of the story from the beginning. It's only now being made explicit.

This. Exactly.

The biggest problem I had with the latest episode was that Ford's "Ha, Ha, I've got a back door" was way too much of a hand wave. Bernard should have anticipated that and disabled it - unless, of course, the backdoor was another thing he couldn't perceive. But that seems to be getting awfully recursive.

polq37 wrote:
lostlobster wrote:

I don't understand the hate for this show, and specifically this episode.

Different strokes for different folks, of course. But you either like these shows where you're trying to figure out what's going on or you don't. It doesn't make sense to suddenly be upset that this is the way the show is. It's not like the writers suddenly switched gears -- the William/MiB thing has been an integral part of the story from the beginning. It's only now being made explicit.

This. Exactly.

The biggest problem I had with the latest episode was that Ford's "Ha, Ha, I've got a back door" was way too much of a hand wave. Bernard should have anticipated that and disabled it - unless, of course, the backdoor was another thing he couldn't perceive. But that seems to be getting awfully recursive.

I'm with you guys. I'm getting pretty much what I wanted after watching the pilot. I think it's a well produced, very well acted sci fi show of HBO quality.

You can pick apart a lot of stuff on a lot of shows. I go in to stuff hoping to enjoy it. I can be turned off when quality drops, but to me, this show's not made lower my opinion along the way.

Perfect show? Nope. Enjoyable to me? Yep.

lostlobster wrote:

But you either like these shows where you're trying to figure out what's going on or you don't.

Or they could just wrap it in episodic prestige TV packaging for you.

It doesn't make sense to suddenly be upset that this is the way the show is. It's not like the writers suddenly switched gears

Well they definitely dove into the "who a bot" and conspiracy stuff more than fleshing out the characters that worked at the park or how the park ran. We've had very little of that (which is interesting to me) lately.

-- the William/MiB thing has been an integral part of the story from the beginning. It's only now being made explicit.

I mean it's had screen time and then mostly been off on its own so disagree.

The "who's a host" game is inevitable, given the subject matter.

This is exactly the problem. It doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be so ham handed and it doesn't have to become the only interesting thing about the show.

They went the one way, and it wish it was the other.

boogle wrote:

This is exactly the problem. It doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be so ham handed and it doesn't have to become the only interesting thing about the show.

They went the one way, and it wish it was the other.

We were talking a lot about that in the early few episodes, the fear that it could degenerate into 'who's a Cylon?' And that does seem to be the direction it's going, which is really unfortunate.

If it really is two timelines, I think I'm done with the show after Season 1, because there's no point to watching a show where they're deliberately lying to you in that way.

If you can't trust anything you see, why watch it at all? A little bit of that is okay, as long as it's clear that we're seeing what a host is seeing, as long as there's a strong hint that we're being misled. But if they're just willing to straight up lie to us, that's just taking advantage of the helpless. We can't defend ourselves against it.

If what I'm watching isn't basically true and self-consistent, if anything can be a lie at any time, why would I think investing time in the story was worthwhile?

(and if the subtext they're trying for trying to make me wonder if I'm a host..... blagh, talk about hamhanded.)

So... they didn't write the show you wanted so it is bad. (in response to Boogle)

If what I'm watching isn't basically true and self-consistent, if anything can be a lie at any time, why would I think investing time in the story was worthwhile?

But it's been consistent. It's been showing multiple timelines from the beginning. It's asking viewers to do some work to understand the narrative. They're not lying to you. They're telling a story in a different way, giving clues along the way that the HOW of the storytelling is as important as the WHAT of the story.

Anyway, I'm not going to get stuck defending the show over and over again. It's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination (see: Felix and Sylvester). I like it. *shrug*

lostlobster wrote:

So... they didn't write the show you wanted so it is bad. (in response to Boogle)

Yeah bruh lemme tell you about opinions and how I have some. smh. I ain't saying don't enjoy something you like, I'm saying to me this show is pretty dog doodoo at the moment and I'm done after the season cap.

Malor wrote:

If it really is two timelines, I think I'm done with the show after Season 1, because there's no point to watching a show where they're deliberately lying to you in that way.

If you can't trust anything you see, why watch it at all? A little bit of that is okay, as long as it's clear that we're seeing what a host is seeing, as long as there's a strong hint that we're being misled. But if they're just willing to straight up lie to us, that's just taking advantage of the helpless. We can't defend ourselves against it.

If what I'm watching isn't basically true and self-consistent, if anything can be a lie at any time, why would I think investing time in the story was worthwhile?

I don't think they've ever lied to us about anything*. They've misdirected us fiercely and skillfully since the very beginning. They're using standard film narrative techniques to guide us toward false inferences. It's like watching stage magic.

*With the possible exception of the hosts' perceptions - but for me, that doesn't really count because that's practically a genre trope. And even so, there is an internally coherent logic to their false perceptions.