[Discussion] Feminism and social justice, plus FAQ!

This thread is for discussing feminist issues--from the narrow meaning (a movement for social justice in terms of gender equality) to the broader meaning (a movement for social justice, period), and from the scope of issues in gaming and geek culture to kyriarchy in general.

Basic questions are allowed here for now, we will split out a Q&A thread should it become necessary.

Chumpy_McChump wrote:

Why is that an HR issue? Similarly, what would you expect HR to do about it?

My company has a strict no-smoking policy. You can get written up for smoking on company property.

Chumpy_McChump wrote:

Why is that an HR issue? Similarly, what would you expect HR to do about it?

Maybe you are right and it isn't and I just need to look the other way, but I find this difficult.

SallyNasty wrote:

So I need advice. I am a believer in a woman's absolute right to body autonomy(really, everyone's right but only one gender has that already). That said, I regularly see two pregnant women smoking at work and I find this morally reprehensible. Am I being a hypocrite if I complain to HR? This is a tough one.

It's not a tough one.

Yes, you'd be a hypocrite. Autonomy extends to bad choices as well as good. Be a believer or don't, but this stance is sitting right athwart that fence.

SallyNasty wrote:
Chumpy_McChump wrote:

Why is that an HR issue? Similarly, what would you expect HR to do about it?

Maybe you are right and it isn't and I just need to look the other way, but I find this difficult.

I'm not aiming to call you out, Sally. I don't think "HR" and "look the other way" are the only options (none of the options are great), and I was wondering what the expectation was with the HR option.

I feel like this has a bit more going on than a straight body autonomy question. The hard part I have is that if they are going to have the baby, science has shown that smoking is detrimental to development so it isn't about how it affects the smoker, but about the baby.

Ultimately you are probably right and I should just ignore as none of my business.

@Chumpy - is fine. I honestly don't know what result I would expect. Maybe disallow smoking for everyone on company property.

SallyNasty wrote:

I feel like this has a bit more going on than a straight body autonomy question. The hard part I have is that if they are going to have the baby, science has shown that smoking is detrimental to development so it isn't about how it affects the smoker, but about the baby.

Dude. You're not The Perfect Baby Police. Don't be policing women's bodies. It's that simple.

Dude. I am not doing anything but asking other people's opinions on a question I have posed. Thanks for your input, it is noted.

*mod*

Take this conversation to men talking to men about feminism if you'd like to continue it.

I was actually really hoping for a feminist perspective on my question and don't really need further cishet male feedback.

If this is wrong place for it, fully apologize and will move on.

Female who has gone through pregnancy.
None of your business.

If it bugs you a ton AND YOU KNOW THE WOMEN, I think it’d be fine to ask them about it.
HR is way out of line.
Do you comment to parents when you see them smoking around their kids?
How is this different?

I really appreciate your perspective and response. For my part, it just feels off walking past and saying nothing(not suggesting I am right, as I am working through my feelings about it). As a counterpoint, if I walked by and saw someone smacking his kids around or offering them alcohol or something else injurious to their development I would say something and am just working through in my mind how this is different.

SallyNasty wrote:

I really appreciate your perspective and response. For my part, it just feels off walking past and saying nothing(not suggesting I am right, as I am working through my feelings about it). As a counterpoint, if I walked by and saw someone smacking his kids around or offering them alcohol or something else injurious to their development I would say something and am just working through in my mind how this is different.

The life-is-weird thing is that it was mostly your posts that got me to accept that it's okay for parents to smack their kids around, and that without being a parent, you've got no skin in the game, so leave the conversation about it to people who do.

Hey, maybe that's the answer here: you're probably not the only person who will ever see her smoking. Leave it up to someone who has been (or even faces the possibility of being) pregnant to have that conversation with her.

I don't know that I ever encouraged smacking kids around, to be clear, I remember that conversation and it was more about spanking but yes - with all these conversations over all these years we definitely find ourselves taking new and different positions as we hopefully evolve as people.

Maybe what still remains true is that if you don't have skin in the game, it's not your place to jump in. Some rule enforcement is best left to people with the appropriate lived experience.

I discussed it with my wife as well and that was basically her take away as well. She said that she would say something about it but that I should just leave it alone.

Thanks for discussion and sorry for derail.

I don’t see the question as a derail at all....I do find it interesting that a mod popped in before any women had a chance to speak. Might be worth considering what thread men are in when posting their replies. The question was asked of women, not of men, but look at how many men felt a need to answer.

Interesting.

*mod*

I don’t see the question as a derail at all....I do find it interesting that a mod popped in before any women had a chance to speak.

For clarity, women can post in the men talking to men thread. Given this conversation quickly turned into a men talking to men conversation, the whole point of the other thread is to avoid men taking up space in here. If dudes want to pose a question that's fine (and within scope) but it's not encouraged for other men to jump in with their own responses in this particular thread.

An anecdotal response, but a friend's wife was actually allowed to smoke by her doctor because it can reduce birth weight. She tended to have really big babies and it was becoming problematic.

Okay, so feminist woman who has had two kids and moonlights as a MD specialized in public health. Smoking is BAD. It's the leading cause of most cancers, and a HUGE factor in atherosclerosis (like plaque building up on your teeth, but in your arteries, which means they get blocked off and bad things happen like stroke or heart attacks or amputations). I will never ever say anything different, especially since smoking also increases the risk of infertility, miscarriage, fetal death, among other things. Oh and it increases the risk of deep vein thrombosis too, which is a big deal when you're on the pill, because that's a factor too, so you can get deep vein thrombosis (DVT), and pulmonary embolism. And die. Yeah, so many fun ways for us to die.

HAVING SAID THAT, unless those women are folks you're really close to, you have ZERO right to say anything to them, and much less to HR (unless they're smoking on the job, where they shouldn't be). Folks with uteri aren't walking incubators. They're still people, with rights to bodily autonomy. The only people who can lecture them (and even then, I recommend education, not lecturing) are their doctors. Maybe the other parent (debatable, but I'll throw it in there). That's it. Certainly not you, random coworker.
I guarantee you they know it's the not best thing for their child. I guarantee you that from the day that pee stick turns blue (or whatever), we're bombarded with guidelines about what to eat, what not to eat, what to drink, etc, etc, etc. They know.
I've never smoked, but I'm told it's a hard habit to kick. Maybe they've cut down. Maybe they're trying. And maybe they aren't. Point is, that's not on you.

And thanks, but I'm not going within a mile of that other thread. I'm good here.

Well, if you were wondering how things in Alabama could get even worse, they just charged a woman that was shot in the abdomen with manslaughter over her miscarriage:

https://www.al.com/news/birmingham/2019/06/woman-indicted-in-shooting-death-of-her-unborn-child-charges-against-shooter-dismissed.html

deftly wrote:

Well, if you were wondering how things in Alabama could get even worse, they just charged a woman that was shot in the abdomen with manslaughter over her miscarriage:

https://www.al.com/news/birmingham/2019/06/woman-indicted-in-shooting-death-of-her-unborn-child-charges-against-shooter-dismissed.html

Gotta normalize criminalizing miscarriage by finding a way to blame black people first.

To legally sanctify the actions of the shooter and charge the victim for her suffering? I cannot comprehend the logic or acceptance of that as a just action, even in the minds of hardline fundamentalist pro-lifers. I am not a person who throws the term around lightly, but that is explicitly evil and a terrifying indicator of the state's trajectory.

This was back in December, so it can't be charged under the new law there. Just more stupid from Alabama

DC Malleus wrote:

To legally sanctify the actions of the shooter and charge the victim for her suffering? I cannot comprehend the logic or acceptance of that as a just action, even in the minds of hardline fundamentalist pro-lifers. I am not a person who throws the term around lightly, but that is explicitly evil and a terrifying indicator of the state's trajectory.

Have you not been paying attention?!? This is exactly what we’ve been warning and talking about. It’s not about protecting life.

It’s about controlling women and their bodies.

DC Malleus wrote:

To legally sanctify the actions of the shooter and charge the victim for her suffering? I cannot comprehend the logic or acceptance of that as a just action, even in the minds of hardline fundamentalist pro-lifers. I am not a person who throws the term around lightly, but that is explicitly evil and a terrifying indicator of the state's trajectory.

The first steps will be to apply this to poor black women until it becomes normalized.

The next step will be applying the law to something like car accidents and other things of the like.

Then they will start encouraging women who are pregnant to stay at home, where it is "safe".

Those who decry Sharia Law the most are determined to recreate it.

Just saw this bit of loveliness crop up in my local news today:

NC State professor suspended after calling women 'useless' during lecture

In one tweet, a student said "For ppl asking, he called on 2 female students and was really rude and condescending to them. He word for word said “the women in this class are useless let me call on a man” and after I called him out he said it was a “joke” bc women are important for our species to reproduce."

Har de har. So funny I forgot to laugh...

Well at least the guy got suspended, that’s progress I guess.